32 postsPage 2 of 2
1, 2
Very interesting thread. As a pro drummer, I do a lot of this type of stuff, so I'll definitely do some work on this. But it might be a few weeks, I just sold my old edrum module and am waiting on a new 2box drumit 5 MK2 to arrive. So I'll wait until I get that module and do some tests.

I will also add that I have used XLN's Addictive Trigger quite a bit to layer sounds on top of "real" acoustic drum recordings. Many times the AD Trigger does not perfectly line up with the acoustic hits. So much so that if I'm working on something that will be released to the public, I go through and manually tweak all the midi notes to perfectly line up with the audio drum hits. It's a real pain, but it's the only way I've found to get it perfectly accurate.

Obviously the AD trigger thing is not quite the same as what's being looked at here. But it's all related to latency of midi vs acoustic in some way. I do find that if I manually move the midi notes to alight perfectly with the audio, the vst sounds are in time with the acoustic. So the playback of the midi into the vst seems to align with the audio playing.

This is one of the areas that needs constant attention by Presonus as I think it contributes to the overall thought that "analog" sounds better than "digital." And every time you make a code change for something else, it has the potential to impact all this. Has to be a daunting task to keep on the development radar to test all these little timing things every time you change code, but is an absolute necessity.

gabo

Sager laptop, 32G, 1TB SSD, Win10-64, RME UFX, Studio One Pro 4, Addictive Drums, Izotope O9, Melodyne Studio, all versions updated frequently

The Moderns,
https://open.spotify.com/artist/1x6Fd133GftlRyRYl0xgjf
User avatar
by Jemusic on Fri May 22, 2020 8:18 am
Just tested again. Tried setting audio buffer to 32 samples and then 2018. Got identical midi timing. I played in from keyboard controller and ATOM as well. Onto a midi track. Feeding back out to an external midi hardware instrument. The audio buffer settings in my system make no difference. The timing is tight to the click in each case. Even when you look at the midi event, the notes are right very close to the click. (Same for either buffer setting as well) I am not using any input quantise either. Just playing very accurately to the click.

Maybe its because my Midi interface is running from a USB port in a PCI card slot. Its totally independent of any audio settings. Why would it not be?

Its late at the moment but I make a video clip of the whole procedure.

Please add your specs to your SIGNATURE.
Search the STUDIO ONE 4 ONLINE MANUAL. Access your MY.PRESONUS account.
OVERVIEW of how to get your issue fixed or the steps to create a SUPPORT TICKET.
Needs to include: 1) One Sentence Description 2) Expected Results 3) Actual Results 4) Steps to Reproduce.



Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V4.6.1 (Mac), Notion 6.5, Ableton Live 10 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
User avatar
by roland1 on Fri May 22, 2020 9:00 am
UPDATES / THOUGHTS / CORRECTIONS / CONFESSIONS:

This morning — how much clearer is the mind on "the morning after" — I noticed something about my timing test results.

In setting up the experiment, I was looking to synchronize the MIDI with the audio of the actual "hit" point to determine system drift, latency and other assorted timing issues.

At first I was working at 1024 in my Focusrite control panel. This caused the recorded audio of the hit to be in perfect sync with the click. However, it was out of sync and also seemingly drifted both backwards and forwards from the MIDI notes I was playing into the track.

This was confusing me because I was using the audio transient as a reference point for my timing, not the MIDI note.

Yet when I switched over to a 64 audio buffer size, the MIDI notes began to line up almost perfectly with my audio recorded hits. In hindsight, I think the AUDIO was realigning with the MIDI, whose timing had not been affected by the buffer size.

So, this creates another question: which one is DRIFTING due to a larger buffer size? Is there such a thing as reliable audio or MIDI timing in a computer-based recording? Is each domain so affected by a multitude of circumstances, both software and hardware based, that perfection is unattainable in either one?

OH GAWD. I miss tape. :(

I use: Studio One Pro v4.53 on i7 7700 win10 PC w16GB RAM and Mac Pro Tower (Sierra) w/RME & Focusrite interfaces.

Author: Reality Checks for Everyday Life — Keeping it real in a world of illusions. I can also be found loitering at: http://RolandK.ca

Attention all shoppers: The people in commercials are paid actors pretending to like the product. It's easy to forget that fact with the music blaring and their happy smiles flashing.
User avatar
by shanabit on Fri May 22, 2020 9:08 am
roland1 wrote
OH GAWD. I miss tape. :(


I have one roll of Ampex here with vintage SHANE on it. :XD:

S1 Pro 4.6.1
OSX High Sierra 10.13.6
2010 MacPro Dual 2.4 Quad, 14 GB Ram
User avatar
by roland1 on Fri May 22, 2020 10:54 am
I just want to cuddle with it for comfort. How much to rent for the weekend? :)

shanabit wrote
roland1 wrote
OH GAWD. I miss tape. :(


I have one roll of Ampex here with vintage SHANE on it. :XD:

I use: Studio One Pro v4.53 on i7 7700 win10 PC w16GB RAM and Mac Pro Tower (Sierra) w/RME & Focusrite interfaces.

Author: Reality Checks for Everyday Life — Keeping it real in a world of illusions. I can also be found loitering at: http://RolandK.ca

Attention all shoppers: The people in commercials are paid actors pretending to like the product. It's easy to forget that fact with the music blaring and their happy smiles flashing.
User avatar
by Jemusic on Fri May 22, 2020 6:58 pm
Here is the video timing test I promised. For the non believers. A few points I didn't make in the video.

Switch to HD if it does not look sharp. Best viewed full screen as well.

I felt an external metronome was a good idea. Feeding into an audio to midi converter. That way any timing inconsistencies due to sloppy playing are eliminated.

I turned Snap OFF in order to slide the midi event over so I could align the first midi note onto a grid line. I would have turned it back on in order to extend the left boundary out exactly 1/4 note. That is why it is still showing being on.

I also did not quantise any notes in the midi editor window below either. Just aligned the first note to a grid line. The rest are how Studio One recorded them.

phpBB [video]

Please add your specs to your SIGNATURE.
Search the STUDIO ONE 4 ONLINE MANUAL. Access your MY.PRESONUS account.
OVERVIEW of how to get your issue fixed or the steps to create a SUPPORT TICKET.
Needs to include: 1) One Sentence Description 2) Expected Results 3) Actual Results 4) Steps to Reproduce.



Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V4.6.1 (Mac), Notion 6.5, Ableton Live 10 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
User avatar
by Jemusic on Fri May 22, 2020 8:17 pm
So to roland1 it does depend on your configuration obviously as to whether midi timing is effected by audio buffer settings or not.

Also there are two things to take into consideration as well. Midi Offset setting and audio offset settings too. I think recording the sound of a key clack or drum pad being hit goes a long way to get the Midi offset right. That would be dependent on the controller as well. I noticed in my case it was different for the Kurzweil and also ATOM for example.

Then there is the issue of audio offset as well. In my case midi notes feeding external hardware might generate sounds which then need to be audio aligned. This would depend on the synth being used and the patch and one should really test that for each case and fine tune. That can be done by creating notes on the grid and then feeding them to either virtual or external instruments and adjusting the audio offset so the peak of the transient is also right on the grid.

It is a lot to take in.

If you have a desktop machine with spare PCI slots though, I highly recommend getting a midi interface in that situation. eg via a PCI to USB card converter. It really works great. And if you have multiple external hardware devices, get a midi interface that has multiple midi ports and put each synth on its own port. Timing improves big time when you do this too. As IanM5 mentions timing gets sloppy pretty quick when you are talking to say 8 synths over one midi port. Chords are one thing but multiple synths on their own channels on the one port is another. I send midi clocks and heavy CC messages down separate ports as well.

Please add your specs to your SIGNATURE.
Search the STUDIO ONE 4 ONLINE MANUAL. Access your MY.PRESONUS account.
OVERVIEW of how to get your issue fixed or the steps to create a SUPPORT TICKET.
Needs to include: 1) One Sentence Description 2) Expected Results 3) Actual Results 4) Steps to Reproduce.



Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V4.6.1 (Mac), Notion 6.5, Ableton Live 10 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
User avatar
by shanabit on Sat May 23, 2020 2:36 am
@Jemusic

RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface

There ya go. A LOT depends on the driver quality in these boxes and the timing solutions employed. RME is great AND its PCI there.
PCI eliminates a LOT of problems as USB has many issues with midi in MOTU land

The Midex8 is VERY solid with midi timing and has midi time stamping if I recall. MOTU midi boxes not so much. On MY system and I don't really care who is a believer or not there are issues with said midi timing.

The issue isn't making a metronome and converting it to midi. The issue is when you record MIDI with whatever controller then play back the external hardware it gets sloppy and does NOT play back what you in fact played in.

Some info on the Midex8 which very well can explain your perfect midi timing there:

"The Linear Time Base Method
To achieve the best possible Timing, the MIDEX-8 uses the Linear Time Base method. This new approach to optimize time-critical MIDI data transfer is the result of a close co-operation between Steinberg and Access Music.
The Problem
The new multitasking operating systems are often not capable of really accurately transferring MIDI data, even on very fast computers. The problem is caused by the sequential method that these systems use to share the system resources between all running applications. The in- tention of the method is to allow for a virtually simultaneous process- ing of different tasks. But when time-critical processes are involved, this method often results in slight timing problems. This might not be of great importance for many applications, but a timing difference of 5 milliseconds during a MIDI data transfer is clearly noticeable.
The Solution
The solution is called LTB – Linear Time Base. This method adds an ad- ditional time information to each MIDI Event and sends the event to the MIDEX-8 early.
• For this reason, the MIDEX-8 “knows” in advance which MIDI information/note to transfer next.
• Monitoring the current time position, the MIDEX-8 assigns the individual MIDI Events to the current position of your Song and sends the MIDI Event at the musically correct time."


Enjoy your rock solid midi timing as others don't have that

S1 Pro 4.6.1
OSX High Sierra 10.13.6
2010 MacPro Dual 2.4 Quad, 14 GB Ram
User avatar
by Jemusic on Sat May 23, 2020 4:26 am
Interesting. I thought LTB only worked with Cubase the same way AMT (Active Midi Transmission) works with Logic. I used to run Logic for many years with a Unitor 8 midi interface on a serial port and the timing was excellent too. I may not necessarily be getting the full advantage of LTB as the DAW has to be able to do it as well.

The metronome test I did was just to show how accurately Studio One can record midi data. It also plays back very perfectly what you play in as well. Even live playing against the click that is not quantised is captured and played back with great accuracy with all timing nuances.

I am a bit concerned though as I am on Win 7 and eventually when I do upgrade to Win 10 I am wondering if the Win 7 driver will still be OK.

Could it be just that the Midi interface in my case is running from a PCI slot instead. I have always been a great believer in getting the midi interface on its own port with nothing else. I do have a MOTU interface as well. (Microlite) I could try that on my PCI USB card and see if I get the same result.

Please add your specs to your SIGNATURE.
Search the STUDIO ONE 4 ONLINE MANUAL. Access your MY.PRESONUS account.
OVERVIEW of how to get your issue fixed or the steps to create a SUPPORT TICKET.
Needs to include: 1) One Sentence Description 2) Expected Results 3) Actual Results 4) Steps to Reproduce.



Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V4.6.1 (Mac), Notion 6.5, Ableton Live 10 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
User avatar
by shanabit on Sat May 23, 2020 11:27 am
Jemusic wroteInteresting. I thought LTB only worked with Cubase the same way AMT (Active Midi Transmission) works with Logic. I used to run Logic for many years with a Unitor 8 midi interface on a serial port and the timing was excellent too. I may not necessarily be getting the full advantage of LTB as the DAW has to be able to do it as well.

Even live playing against the click that is not quantised is captured and played back with great accuracy with all timing nuances.

I am a bit concerned though as I am on Win 7 and eventually when I do upgrade to Win 10 I am wondering if the Win 7 driver will still be OK.

Could it be just that the Midi interface in my case is running from a PCI slot instead. I have always been a great believer in getting the midi interface on its own port with nothing else. I do have a MOTU interface as well. (Microlite) I could try that on my PCI USB card and see if I get the same result.



1. I read where guys are running your midi interface on W10
2. Maybe the LBT doesnt apply with S1 as you stated? Not sure but I think you are correct
3. PCI midi timing is always rock tight. Heck my MTPAV Serial port version was way better thant he USB version I use now.
4. I would gladly try any test you would like me to do here. Im on Mac so there is that..
5. Live playing against the click is really what my issue is here. Its worse with VST's as you said but external hardware triggering after its played in is iffy too.
6. I think my big issue is the Roland TD8 triggering into S1. Its old I know.

S1 Pro 4.6.1
OSX High Sierra 10.13.6
2010 MacPro Dual 2.4 Quad, 14 GB Ram
User avatar
by Jemusic on Sat May 23, 2020 6:54 pm
Thanks shanabit for your info. Great to hear that Midex 8 is still a possibility on WIndows 10. I was hoping. Interesting in that Steinberg actually released the WIn 7 driver well after Midex 8 was discontinued. After a lot of complaints. Nice of them actually. I am wondering if Cubase now still supports LTB. I think Logic still has the AMT option in its midi settings, not sure.

I tested MOTU Microlite running in the PCI slot (USB Card) and got exactly the same results as my video meaning it is PCI related rather than something special such as LTB as I thought. (By the way LTB or AMT improves midi timing by a factor of 10 which is even more awesome but not sure of those DAW's still support it)

Even so a decent MOTU interface such as the Express XT is going to be pretty damn good running from the PCI slot.

I will do another test with the Microlite running from my Clarett interface on the iMac over thunderbolt. I suspect it too might be pretty good.

As a drummer and now keys as well, I am sensitive to timing issues. I have always strived for the best and tightest midi performance as I can get so that is the reason I have been building desk top machines with PCI slots. I used to be a CV/gate guy too for years before midi was invented and although a lot that was quantised the gate signal is super fast and tight. Hard to beat actually.

Hey the new Mac Pro has got PCIe slots again! About time.

Please add your specs to your SIGNATURE.
Search the STUDIO ONE 4 ONLINE MANUAL. Access your MY.PRESONUS account.
OVERVIEW of how to get your issue fixed or the steps to create a SUPPORT TICKET.
Needs to include: 1) One Sentence Description 2) Expected Results 3) Actual Results 4) Steps to Reproduce.



Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V4.6.1 (Mac), Notion 6.5, Ableton Live 10 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
User avatar
by Jemusic on Sun May 24, 2020 3:50 pm
Done some more tests which have interesting results as well. On my iMac now firstly with the MOTU Microlite on USB 2 only. Then using my Clarett 2 Pre interface over thunderbolt and using the Midi ports on that.

No input quantise either with any of these tests.

1 MOTU Microlite on USB 2. Got perfect timing again with either 32 sample or 2048 audio buffer settings.

2 MOTU Microlite on USB 2 again but with 20 instances of EMT plate present on an audio track. So my CPU was running at 61%. Also got perfect timing with either 32 or 2048 audio buffer settings.

3 Clarett 2 Pre Interface now connected to thunderbolt. Used midi port on that. Same thing. Perfect timing with either 32 or 2048 audio buffer settings and either 61% CPU or not.

This could mean two things. The MOTU has excellent midi drivers and works really tight over USB 2 and the Clarett over thunderbolt is also doing the same.

Found out too that Cubase dropped LTB several versions ago and same thing with Logic and AMT. So using the Midex 8 interface or Unitor 8 with current versions of Cubase/Logic you are not getting any advantages of LTB or AMT. Interfaces will still work fine though. Apparently with later versions of Windows operating systems they improved midi timing so much that LTB was not needed anymore with Cubase. Logic's midi timing has apparently got worse with later versions and current version too. Currently its not great for some reason. Cannot confirm, would have to test.

Please add your specs to your SIGNATURE.
Search the STUDIO ONE 4 ONLINE MANUAL. Access your MY.PRESONUS account.
OVERVIEW of how to get your issue fixed or the steps to create a SUPPORT TICKET.
Needs to include: 1) One Sentence Description 2) Expected Results 3) Actual Results 4) Steps to Reproduce.



Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V4.6.1 (Mac), Notion 6.5, Ableton Live 10 Suite, LaunchPad Pro

32 postsPage 2 of 2
1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: bastiaanmarcscholtemeijer and 15 guests