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Hi,

I've asked this question to the support team and they told me to ask on the forum.

I have bought a Keylab MK2 61 from Arturia.

The Keylab Mk2 offers 3 modes.

In Analog Lab mode, I can control the Analog Lab Instrument.

In DAW mode, I can control the tracks with the Mackie Console preset in external instruments but to control instruments and FX, I have to use the User mode of the keylab which is mapped to the keyboard (not the console).

To avoid knobs and faders jumping to absolute value, they have offered 3 Relative positions options for each knob and fader. Unfortunately, I've tried the 3 Relative options offered by the Keylab MK2 in Studio One but Studio One doesn't trigger the soft takeover and the result is that knobs and faders have a very limited range. I use Studio One as my main DAW. I've read in some Studio One forums that it might be necessary to edit the user device settings mapping file (keylab.surface.xml) but I couldn't get it to work.

Does anyone can help me with setting that up?

It's really annoying to have my knobs and faders jumping all the time and losing my preset values while doing Sound Design or recording automations. The problem occurs on MAC and PC. I've tried soft takeover with Abelton Live Lite and it works fine but I don't want to spend more Euros in a new DAW to buy Live Standard version especially after I upgraded from Studio One 3 Pro to Studio One 4 Pro....

Thanks,
Christophe
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by reginaldStjohn on Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:58 pm
I didn't think that Studio One supported the soft take over of parameters? Are you saying the Auturia has this capability?

I have a Nektar Impact 88+ and the fader's and knobs are almost useless because Studio One doesn't support the soft take over. So when i move a physical fader the corresponding Studio one fader will jump.

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by Lokeyfly on Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:01 pm
Great choice!
Btw, you can vote for soft takeover here.

https://answers.presonus.com/24002/plugin-and-mixer-parameter-soft-takeover

Quite honestly, I've never had any issues mapping, and using the MkII as it is with Studio One. Never had encoders jump as described. Though I have come across seeing set limits from the endless encoders, but that's only because the parameter was already hitting it's limit from that instrument, or disconnected by way of mouse or patch change. Thats with any encoders. With the Keylab MkII In User Mode, you can map on all 3 presets/banks. You can store as many presets as you like with Keylab's MIDI Controll Center (Set in the MKII configuration). The MkII is class compliant, so setup is fairly plug & play with anything I've come across. No issues with the S1 Control link as well with any of Arturia's instruments. No jumps at all.

Still, I'd like to know a little more or see soft takeover. ;)

If fader relocation is an issue as it would be with any control device that has a limit to it, the best alternative is motorized faders, i.e Faderport (all types), or HUI with motorized faders. In particular the Faderport have an edge when being used with S1 because the faders can be mapped individually, or globally to plugins, and they work with higher resolution than HUI (with S1).
Just mentioning, because that's available, now.

christophevanalphen wrote: "In DAW mode, I can control the tracks with the Mackie Console preset in external instruments but to control instruments and FX, I have to use the User mode of the keylab which is mapped to the keyboard (not the console)." 

User Mode really isn't mapped to the keyboard, per se. It's open to be instructed to use via any standard learn operation, or mapped assignment.

If you can describe a specific situation, I'd be glad to assist.

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Hi Lokeyfly,

Thank you for your reply.

In DAW mode, I can only assign 8 knobs and 8 buttons to a plugin. Because the DAW mode is set to pickup on the MK2, I have a smooth transition (no jump) for these 8 knobs but it's pretty limited because we have plenty of knobs and faders on the MK2..

Let's take Mojito as an example.
Goal: "I want to assign Fader 1 to control the Attack filter.
Steps:
1 - DAW mode is selected on the MK2
2 - Mojito is opened and in focus
3 - "Control" is selected as controller
4 - I click "Attack" and see the target parameter updated
5 - I move the Fader 1 of the MK2

Expected: Fader 1 should appear as "source" to control the Attack Filter (Target)
Current behavior: Attack is replaced by Volume as the target and "fader 1" doesn't appear as Source.

When I switch the MK2 to User mode, (keeping "Control" as selected Midi source), and click Attack (target) then move the Fader 1 of the MK2 (source), then I see Fader 1 updated as source but under Fader 1, I see "Keylab MK2" which is the keyboard controller (Control was expected instead).

When I click the left arrow to assign Fader 1 to Attack and move the Fader 1 then the value of the Attack filter of Mojito jumps to match the value of Fader 1 (MK2)... That's what I want to avoid.

I would like to keep the same smooth transition as I have with Control in DAW mode without being limited to 8 knobs and 8 buttons.

If it works fine for you (in user mode, all knobs, and faders of the 3 banks working fine without jumping), please can you explain how did you set up your midi configuration?

Thanks,
Christophe
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by Lokeyfly on Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:07 pm
Hi Christophe,
My MIDI configuration is:

In Studio One's Hardware settings, Edit Device:
Under Keylab Control, Receive from: "MIDIIN2 (KEYLAB MKII 49)"

Send to: MIDIOUT 2 (Keylab mkII 49)

 
Under Keylab MKII, Receive from: "Keylab MKII" 
Send to: "Keylab MKII"


I won't be at my studio until tomorrow night, but I'll check. Good example, and sounds like I'd expect the same. You'd want more than the 9 faders, 9 rotaries, and 9 buttons. Though switching them by way of the 3 presets will likely not allow them to latch unless your (in this case) fader set for Attack passes the point where they do latch. That's always inherent with mixer fades as well.

I'll check and follow your steps to the T.
Yeah, I'd also like DAW mode, and User mode to have the same consistency when mapping.
Talk then.
James

P.s., I see we both voted, as the number jumped from 22 to 24. A good thing.

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by Lokeyfly on Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:13 am
Not able to check yet, but during lunch I pulled this up from YouTube. Pretty generic, but I'd expect the 8 or 9 faders for example per our discussion to work this way. Located at 11:30. Where focus changes back to his original fader setting.

He also touches on soft take-over at 8:25.

 https://youtu.be/itWM3iY4sfw

I have another curiosity Chris that seems relevant to the discussion. My Novation SL MKII-25 as I recall would latch back to where faders in the Studio One mixer reside. In other words, they won't jump if they are disabled, then moved due to mouse relocation, or bank change (i.e. going from Bank 1-8 to 2-16, relocating that same fader, then return to 1-8). What happens then is ill move the fader perhaps down, and on the return trip it latches with the Studio One mixer fader. I wonder if it is because the SL MKII is touch sensitive on every fader and rotary encoder, button, etc. So my question then is it really about soft-takeover, or whatever handshaking is going on that makes that scenario sure seem like soft takeover already exists. Albeit, with another controller, or that controller is touch sensitive which assists somehow.

Talk later. Sorry, busy schedule, so I can't check at this time.

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Thank Lokeyfly for sharing this video and taking some time to think about my issue :-)

There are midi controllers that have the ability to receive the position of the parameters from the DAW and are programmed to do something with it then it is possible to have a smooth transition (on the controller side). The Behringer BCR 2000 does that (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/behring ... 000-g4464/).

It seems that the Novation SL MK2 25 is coupled with a software called Automap so maybe that's why it is working fine for you.

On the Keylab Mk2, there is a soft takeover in DAW mode (via Mackie Control) but I didn't find a way to set up the faders to work for the plugins as they do for the volume of the tracks. Maybe it is because of the DAW setting "Studio One" from the MK2.
The other example of a nice soft takeover is when you are in Analog Lab mode with Analog Lab opened. It works like a charm. But the problem of jumping parameters is still the same when you open any instrument from the V-Collection (not via the Analog Lab VST). I've reported the issue to Arturia and they confirmed the bug. I hope they will fix it soon.

Here is a link to screenshots of my midi configuration and the behavior (with Mojito as an example)...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JcEcQhQl98WHDZu5uXXVAm8SkyyHLjFs

Thanks for your help,
Christophe
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by Lokeyfly on Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:49 am
christophevanalphen-griet wrote: There are midi controllers that have the ability to receive the position of the parameters from the DAW and are programmed to do something with it then it is possible to have a smooth transition (on the controller side). The Behringer BCR 2000 does that 


Hi Chris,
I'm familiar with the BCR2000. It's been around a while, and still is a great bargain controller. Seems similar to my SL25 MKII. They even have LED's that display knob positions. Yes, so evidently soft takeover is somewhat product specific. I understand. Thanks for mentioning that is on the controller side. Yes, Novation's Automap likely ties in with the SL MKII receiving with desirable results.

On trying your steps, I do see the shortcomings you're speaking on. But I'm also seeing a distinction among different controller devices that sort of lend themselves to different uses or tailoring. Some things like the Keylab controlling DAW mixer faders seems best left alone in DAW mode.

so in answering your question, if in User Mode, can I avoid the jump occurrences, I cannot.

On the Keylab Mk2, there is a soft takeover in DAW mode (via Mackie Control) but I didn't find a way to set up the faders to work for the plugins as they do for the volume of the tracks. Maybe it is because of the DAW setting "Studio One" from the MK2.


Makes sense. What I'd  I'd prefer not to do is set HUI in the controller setup. I'd stay with the default Keylab MKII settings I posted earlier. Reason being, with Keylab MkII in DAW mode, youll have automatic mixer control (in my case, it also engages the Faderport 8 in that mode, which keeps a sort of DAW or User mode consistency). So bank changes, and routine mix control work fine with DAW mode. I'd still explore customizing DAW mode further though, and admittedly haven't with my Keylab MKII. I think that is due to the Keylab series make very easy distinctions between user/DAW/Analog Lab modes (I also just purchased it 2 months ago). With the Novation MKII, I never really use its User mode. Instead, I customize the heck out of its Automap mode. Go figure. The two controllers lend themselves to different flows. Since you have the BCR2000, and Keylab, you can identify with this, though that doesn't help that you're trying to have the Keylab perform the same way. If I didn't have motorized faders, I would insist they work the same as well. Still, the lack of no soft takeover exists with the Keylab. Even in User Mode.  :(  So going forward, besides already voting for Soft takeover, I'll share any findings that help that cause. Even if it's a call to Novation to "receive" DAW parameter settings, altered or otherwise. Arturia are very good about getting back to user comments, from my short term experience with them.

The other example of a nice soft takeover is when you are in Analog Lab mode with Analog Lab opened. It works like a charm. But the problem of jumping parameters is still the same when you open any instrument from the V-Collection (not via the Analog Lab VST).

Agreed. Excellent point. I'm uncovering these things more and more these last 2 months. I guess I've been a bit in the gray trying to get this project done, so I'll see soft takeover (or not), and forge on but this is worthwhile stuff! We need to stay on this so "thank you" for posting!


Additional: Funny, even with the Novation Automap which works pretty good (and seemingly does latch, without the jump), I still wasn't crazy about relying on latch, especially when it comes to dealing with a near finished mix. That drove me to picking up a faderport, or at the time when I was shopping, possibly any motorized HUI controller. If I had to perform a mix with this current jumping that can happen, I'd be in tears, so it's probably a good idea while waiting for soft takeover, look to motorized faders if your looking to solidify a mix, or have absolute engagement over plugin or instrument parameters. Even a single Faderport would be helpful, since it will slave, or drive any DAW fader movement.

In User Mode, as Quanta's video points out, controls will change depending on focus or whatever plugin is active. I use a few choice channel strips so I'll keep the user settings pretty consistant for things like Parametric EQ's, HPF/LPF cut-off, etc. So saving presets with foresight to multiple uses, can't be overstated.

Glad we spoke on this. Arturia and/or Presonus does need to allow for the same integration that the Novation MkII/MKIII has, as well as items like the Behringer  BCR-2000. They latch properly, as we've seen.

Any users seeing the same jump response discussed here among different plugins, or instrument parameters should definately vote as well. TY.
Lack of soft takeover can nudge very defined settings. And that is a problem!

BTW, there's a few guys in this forum who write scripts and may have a solution. Not sure, so keep an eye out for more info. I map a lot of stuff, but I'm not an expert. However, this does seem to be a condition of both soft takeover and manufactures like Arturia wherr receive DAW parameters could be better.

Web searching, therr doesn't seem to be much on the subject. Nothing from Arturia, nor the Keylab MKII manual.

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by Lokeyfly on Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:44 am
Posting the link to vote again for visibility (and keeping this short :) ).

For others even not owning an Arturia controller, yet have found their controller parameters jump when they alter something with a mouse, or change to another plugin/instrument, change any encoder or fader position, then return focus to a previous plugin/instrument. Suddenly find as soon as they change that fader or knob, there's a software parameter "jump" to that position, that's a problem. Actually, this happens with a lot of controllers. It's a bit unusual the subject doesn't come up more.


So with your own hardware, if jumping exists, you'll probably care about voting for Soft takeover either by virtue of the DAW or your hardware manufacturer so that the problem can be fixed. This is a fairly generic "shortcoming" and not like the Nektar Panorama issues, which I believe those handshaking issues have finally been resolved with Studio One.

So voting for Soft takeover is here: thx ahead :punk:

General request for soft takeover:
https://answers.presonus.com/24002/plugin-and-mixer-parameter-soft-takeover

Console 1 request for soft takeover:
https://answers.presonus.com/41602/soft-takeover-for-console-1-midi-controller

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Hi Lokeyfly!

Lokeyfly wrote: so in answering your question, if in User Mode, can I avoid the jump occurrences, I cannot.


Thanks a lot for testing on your side. I hope that a lot of people will vote for Soft Takeover. I don't understand how something so basic (for UX) is not included out of the box. I found posts from the early 2000's already asking for that. So people are waiting for more than 20 years :-) Same issue for iPad users. iPad has become very powerful now with amazing synths but same jumping issues.

At least some DAWs have the soft takeover option now. It works nicely in Abelton Live but you can only save the Midi Mapping per song, not globally so for me that's a no go. I've tried Reaper and it works great! So I'll go with Reaper instead of Studio One. Especially because it is powerful and really cheap. UX is not great though but it works!!!

Maybe I'll continue using S1 for Mixing/Mastering until they offer the Soft Takeover or until Arturia offers a real integration (S1 sends Midi Out to tell the controller about the plugins parameters positions so hopefully Arturia can come up with software integration to listen to S1 and use the pickup behavior as they do with Analog Lab.

Lokeyfly wrote:
Since you have the BCR2000, and Keylab, you can identify with this, though that doesn't help that you're trying to have the Keylab perform the same way...


Unfortunately, I don't have a BCR2000. I watched a video on Youtube about it, the person was using Studio One with it.

Best,
Christophe
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by Lokeyfly on Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:33 am
christophevanalphen-griet wrote: At least some DAWs have the soft takeover option now. It works nicely in Abelton Live but you can only save the Midi Mapping per song, not globally so for me that's a no go. I've tried Reaper and it works great! So I'll go with Reaper instead of Studio One. Especially because it is powerful and really cheap. UX is not great though but it works!!!


Maybe I'll continue using S1 for Mixing/Mastering until they offer the Soft Takeover or until Arturia offers a real integration (S1 sends Midi Out to tell the controller about the plugins parameters positions so hopefully Arturia can come up with software integration to listen to S1 and use the pickup behavior as they do with Analog Lab.


A few people voted. It's gone up to 26. So hay, we helped the effort. :)

The Novation MkII with the Automap simply works. It latches once the point passes the new or altered position and connects. Even with that sort soft takeover amongst different hardware, many make a choice that motorized faders simply provide active precision because faders/encoders respond instantly in real time, all the time. Still, Im surprised at the lack of soft takeover with some hardware-software configurations. Too long overdue. Interestingly, even Console One which can be used as a generic midi controller by closing it's OSD and reconnecting the USB to switch to a general midi controller requires a soft takeover implementation to function correctly.

Raising some awareness here is a worthwhile cause. Go for the best way you can with the Keylab MkII series. I'm not a fan of Reaper but glad that's an alternative for you.

If you stay with S1, and until soft takeover actually works as expected, possibly on Arturia's end, you can always look for either a secondary controller that does interface with S1 with soft takeover, or go for tactile control such as a faderport. Perhaps some script may also surface that helps.

With the Novation MKII, I did notice Automap defaults with HUI for transport and mixer fades, and Automap for regular send and receive mapping. User mode doesnt usr Automap.

All the best.

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