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Out of interest, what happens if you render the tracks with the plugins and remove them all together. If you do this, save the song with a different title. Can you insert any Plugin Alliance Plugins at that point. I have not experienced not being able to add plugins in a 3.5 project opened in V4.

Is it just one particular brand of these plugins that do this?

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Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface and Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V3.5/4.1, Notion 6, Ableton Live 9, LaunchPad Pro
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by Speranza on Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:33 am
Jemusic wroteOut of interest, what happens if you render the tracks with the plugins and remove them all together. If you do this, save the song with a different title. Can you insert any Plugin Alliance Plugins at that point. I have not experienced not being able to add plugins in a 3.5 project opened in V4.

Is it just one particular brand of these plugins that do this?


I'll try this later when back in the studio. Yes, just Plugin Alliance plugins, all others okay.

I'll leave this now so as not to pollute the 4.0.1 general discussion. Thanks for the input and suggestions Jemusic!

Studio One 4.1 x64 - Windows 10 x64, Intel i7 4790K, 16GB RAM
Samsung 960 M.2 250GB for OS, Samsung 840 500GB SSD x2_Samsung 850 500GB SSD x1 for Audio and Romplers.
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by lfo2k on Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:04 pm
ionian wroteStudio one definitely is fiddly with Midi. I'm very sensitive to timing and it's the only daw where I get issues with midi timing. I don't in Reaper or in Sonar, but with Studio One, I have to put an offset of 17ms for some reason to get the midi to be close to what I played. I don't need the offset in the other daws. I just assume that Studio One is geared more towards audio so the midi isn't that robust.

I'm using a Edirol UM880 interface.

I just updated to Studio One 4 and I had the Nvidia problem as of today. I had to roll back my driver so Presonus hasn't fixed that issue yet, but I hope they get to it soon. Studio one 3.5 works fine with the Nvidia driver so clearly Presonus screwed something up in version 4 and the issue is with Presonus, not Nvidia.


How do you know hove you did play it? You can not see your timing while recording.

I also have to offset. But only for the audio part. I ihave a kick audio file. i have to offset the kick audiofile for about 12-17ms, because midi is slower, or in other words, the recorded audio comes earlier, and the audio from my external synths comes later in. I have to bring the faster already recorded audio, to the slower midi stuff timing, to hear them both (live) at near equal timing.

Jittery USB masterkeyboard midi to the DAW, then the DAW sends it again via jittery USB to my USB-Midi interface, then it goes further to the slow midi synth, and the audio from the synth first has to pass the input (latency) of my audiointerface, and also again out again, so i can hear it (also latency).

So yes, this whole process takes about 12-17 ms.

And yes, the transient detection for audio events is....not very good. I always have to do this by hand.
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by Jemusic on Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:14 am
ionian wroteStudio one definitely is fiddly with Midi. I'm very sensitive to timing and it's the only daw where I get issues with midi timing. I don't in Reaper or in Sonar, but with Studio One, I have to put an offset of 17ms for some reason to get the midi to be close to what I played. I don't need the offset in the other daws. I just assume that Studio One is geared more towards audio so the midi isn't that robust.

I'm using a Edirol UM880 interface.

I just updated to Studio One 4 and I had the Nvidia problem as of today. I had to roll back my driver so Presonus hasn't fixed that issue yet, but I hope they get to it soon. Studio one 3.5 works fine with the Nvidia driver so clearly Presonus screwed something up in version 4 and the issue is with Presonus, not Nvidia.


Most of this is not happening for me, in fact the opposite. In fact I am very sensitive to midi timing myself being a drummer of 48 years and also a keyboard player who has the best and fastest response time with hardware.

I am running a Midex 8 Midi interface on its own PCI based USB card. For me the timing is spectacular and far better than many other DAW's. Midi is extremely well serviced in Studio One. Midi timing for me is totally independent to audio (with external devices) I am getting perfectly played performances timing wise compared to the recording process. Many have in fact praised the quality of midi timing in Studio One.

My Offset is only set to 6 mS in order to get midi lined up with the audio perfectly.

Please make sure your Input Quantise setting is off. In V4 it seems to default to On which is not what you want. Many do not see this and incorrectly accuse Studio One of bad midi jitter when it in fact is not the case.

With virtual instruments and my RME audio interface I an getting just over 2 mS latency which feels super fast. Midi timing is also great for me with virtual instruments.

The Edirol Midi interface may not be that great in this scenario either. Sounds like there may other factors contributing to poor nidi performance expressed in the quoted post.

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Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface and Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V3.5/4.1, Notion 6, Ableton Live 9, LaunchPad Pro
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by brettgoodkin on Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:50 am
Speranza wroteHi there, I'm having a problem with Studio One 4.0.1 (same with 4.0) and my Plugin Alliance plugins.
If a project created in version 3.5.x is opened in version 4.x, it works all ok, but I cannot ADD any of my Plugin Alliance plugins into it. The ones ALREADY in the project are loaded, albeit having lost their settings, but they can be used. If I want to add any others however, Studio One will not let me.
This happens even after having saved the project as a version 4 file.

I have reinstalled and tried both VST2 and VST3 versions.

I can create new projects successfully with no problem in v4 and add new Plugin Alliance plugins. This is just with songs created initially in version 3.5.x

Is anyone else having this issue, or able to replicate it?


Yes. Here too

https://soundcloud.com/brotherbrim/sets ... ernational

Win10... S1 pro latest version... 64 bits... Rme latest drivers... All the ram and i7 monster...
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by Blades on Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:04 pm
I know that this is a 4.0.1 thread, and I don't know that this really belongs here, but in response to what others are posting regarding midi timing. (btw: I am using 4.0.1 professional).

1. I feel like the timing is really tight and I am generally pretty picky about this.
2. I am an edrummer, recording to MIDI first and then rendering to audio after edits (Using a Pearl Mimic Pro going into the Midi on a Presonus Studio 18|24 interface on a pretty fast i5 system).

When I record midi and audio at the same time, I get a pretty close match between the two (less than 1ms from what I can see)

When I record the midi first, then play that back and record the audio to another track, the difference is consistently 4 or 5 ms, with the audio being late by that much compared to the midi. When looking at my Audio Roundtrip latency, I see 6.89ms, so I don't know that there is a connection here. I have no Blue or Green Z enabled.

I tried setting the Record Offset in the Advanced/Midi section , but it doesn't make any difference if I put it at + or - 5ms the comparison looks the same on screen.

Now, realistically, I know that 4 or 5ms of difference isn't REALLY going to matter. Not for me. If I were playing with Chick Corea or some super-tight progressive rock band (like if I were Nick D'Virgillio or something), it would matter. My other playing is hardly rock-solid on guitar and such, but it would be good to have an accurate reading, nonetheless.

Any thoughts on this?

Drummer and Singer mostly with some limited Guitar/Bass/Keys and a love for tech.
My personal website, with some useful videos and other music related things: https://blades.technology

Using:
Self-built i5/16gb/all SSD, S1 4 Pro, Sonar Platinum/Cakewalk by Bandlab, Faderport 8, Tranzport, Edirol PCR-800, Pearl Mimic Pro and Roland V-Drums kit.
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by snb1 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:53 pm
Thanks for the update, alot of great fixes and new features. The crashing of Impact XT when going through a folder that contained both mono and stereo files was fixed too. Great job!

Studio One Pro 4.1 64 bit, Mac OS 10.12.6, Mac mini (Late 2012) 2.3GHz quad-core Intel Core i7 (Turbo Boost up to 3.3GHz) with 6MB L3 cache, Intel HD Graphics 4000, 16 GB ram, 240 GB OWC Extreme Pro 6G Solid State SATS Drive startup disk, 1 TB internal SATA Dive, (2x) 1 TB External Glyph Studio 7200RPM eSATA Drives, 500 GB External WD Drive

SkipNo Beet Productions
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by PreAl on Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:30 pm
Well done with 4.0.1 however I'm hoping 4.0.2 and 4.0.3 goes a lot further with concentrating on the big fixing (there's clearly outstanding issues to be resolved). Keep it up please it needs to be better than rock solid.

Studio One Pro 4, Faderport 1, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, Maschine Studio, Octapad SPD-30, Roland A300, Windows 10 Pro 64 bit.
EVGA Geforce 1070 (Nvidia drivers). A bigly amount of other gear.
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by j0001s on Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:21 am
Blades wroteWhen I record the midi first, then play that back and record the audio to another track, the difference is consistently 4 or 5 ms, with the audio being late by that much compared to the midi.

I tried setting the Record Offset in the Advanced/Midi section , but it doesn't make any difference if I put it at + or - 5ms the comparison looks the same on screen.

Any thoughts on this?


There's 3 things that can be tweaked. You've found the one for midi record offset.

There's two in the audio tab - audio record offset, and ignore audio device timestamps.

Since my audio and midi timing appear OK, I haven't played with these on S1. But I have before on other DAWs.

As you've noted, your converter specs have a published latency. If this isn't compensated, your audio recording should be delayed by the total latency. The audio that you're playing against will be delayed by the D/A latency (so, you'll be playing slightly late relative to the existing audio), and what you play will be further delayed by the A/D latency.

IF Studio One knows exactly what these delays are, it should be able to compensate. In theory, both ASIO (Windows) and CoreAudio (Mac) have a mechanism for the audio device to tell Studio One these delays. However:
  • The manufacturer has to know exactly what the delays are, at all sample rates. You would think they would, but...
  • The audio driver has to report this correctly (no bugs...)

What I do to check this is:
  • Create a click track. You can render the metronome (click on the wrench in the metronome area - render is there)
  • Take a microphone and jam in up to your speaker or headphone driver
  • Play back the click track and record it on a new track
  • Measure the offset between the two
  • Compensate for it. It may take a combination of Ignore Audio Timestamps and Record Offset.

Once the audio is correct, then you can look at the midi.
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by Blades on Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:28 am
Thanks for those tips. I Will take a look over those settings and see what I get to. 8-)

Drummer and Singer mostly with some limited Guitar/Bass/Keys and a love for tech.
My personal website, with some useful videos and other music related things: https://blades.technology

Using:
Self-built i5/16gb/all SSD, S1 4 Pro, Sonar Platinum/Cakewalk by Bandlab, Faderport 8, Tranzport, Edirol PCR-800, Pearl Mimic Pro and Roland V-Drums kit.
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by j0001s on Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:47 am
Postscript to my post above.

I did a quick test, and my audio latency was out by 120 samples at 44.1K (2.7 ms), and 156 samples at 88.2K (1.7 ms).
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by Jemusic on Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:51 pm
Blades wrote
When I record the midi first, then play that back and record the audio to another track, the difference is consistently 4 or 5 ms, with the audio being late by that much compared to the midi. ]


It is not clear how you are converting midi to audio. Are you playing the midi back out to an external device and recording that back in, or are you using a virtual instrument? If it is a virtual instrument, how are you doing the transform to audio. eg.. CtrL B or Transform to Audio or a real time transfer etc..

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Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface and Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V3.5/4.1, Notion 6, Ableton Live 9, LaunchPad Pro
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by Blades on Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:04 pm
It is an external device.. Specifically it is a Pearl Mimic Pro Drum brain. It is connected via midi cables to the presonus Studio 1824 audio interface.

Drummer and Singer mostly with some limited Guitar/Bass/Keys and a love for tech.
My personal website, with some useful videos and other music related things: https://blades.technology

Using:
Self-built i5/16gb/all SSD, S1 4 Pro, Sonar Platinum/Cakewalk by Bandlab, Faderport 8, Tranzport, Edirol PCR-800, Pearl Mimic Pro and Roland V-Drums kit.
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by Jemusic on Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:55 pm
Set your buffers as low as they can when doing the transfer to an external audio device. e.g. 32 samples. Buffer settings effect the offset. Turn all FX off when doing the transfer. (which you can do with one click) I like to SOLO the midi track in question as well when turning external midi synths into audio. It ensures it is the only thing playing out.

And if its very rhythmic material and in sync with the click track, one should in fact solo the transferred audio and the click and listen to see how the audio track sits in the pocket in relation to the click. Fine adjustments can be made here with the delay setting in the inspector. e.g. use a negative value and pull that track by mS increments for that final fine timing tuning.

I feel for you though. I am also a drummer (of 48 years) as well as a keyboardist. I can sense even minute changes in timing. But with care and certain workflows you can get it spot on. I like using my ears in that final fine tune track delay setting. It can make a massive difference at times.

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Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface and Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V3.5/4.1, Notion 6, Ableton Live 9, LaunchPad Pro
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by Blades on Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:31 pm
Jemusic - Setting the buffers all the way down to 16 didn't make a single bit of difference here. Zoomed in to a gazlillion percent leaves me able to line up the "now marker" at the begining of the midi note at 00:00:001.975 seconds and the beginning of the audio at 00:00:001.980 seconds. That still looks like 5 ms to me. This is with a blank template with only 4 snare hits on the midi track and not one other thing in the project, effects or otherwise.

Am I reading it wrong?

As I mentioned in my original post about the matter, if I record midi and Audio together/at the same time, they are pretty much spot on. It's only when I play the midi back out and record the resulting audio that I see this difference.

Of course, I could just shift the entire audio for all of the drum parts by 5ms after "re-amping" if I wanted and it would be right where I played it.

What I DON'T want to do is change a setting that affects everything else that I record, because I have a feeling that the audio inbound is right and adjusting everything will (at the end of the day) just make the drums out by 5ms the other way, so I'd be better off doing it manually just for the drum audio. Or as I said earlier, just leave well enough alone because this 5ms is likely the LEAST of my problems! :)

Drummer and Singer mostly with some limited Guitar/Bass/Keys and a love for tech.
My personal website, with some useful videos and other music related things: https://blades.technology

Using:
Self-built i5/16gb/all SSD, S1 4 Pro, Sonar Platinum/Cakewalk by Bandlab, Faderport 8, Tranzport, Edirol PCR-800, Pearl Mimic Pro and Roland V-Drums kit.
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by Jemusic on Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:07 pm
I am thinking the inherent delay is due to the Presonus interface giving you the best it can do. I have an RME PCI interface which can get down to an input latency of 2.4 mS. My roundtrip is 3.9 mS

So changing buffers for me does reveal a difference. But I guess I cannot go below a certain delay once I reach the limits of the RME for example. I also have a Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface connected to a Mac and the figures are all well below those again. (I can set 16 samples with this one!) 1mS input and 1mS output latency. Total 2mS round trip! Fast is an understatement for this. When I am playing a virtual instrument with this, it is the fastest response I have ever felt.

The fastest Presonus interface is the Quantum.

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Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface and Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V3.5/4.1, Notion 6, Ableton Live 9, LaunchPad Pro
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by roblof on Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:56 am
If you use some other daw like reaper or similar, do you get the same midi delay? If so, then I suspect your midi interface have some latency of its own and re-amping makes it more obvious.

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by Jemusic on Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:19 am
From my experience of having used the same midi interface with multiple DAW's, it is rare for that midi interface to perform differently from one DAW to another. Usually once the midi interface is found by the alternate DAW it will work exactly the same way performance wise. (there is one exception though. Under Sonar midi timing gets sloppy when the audio side of the program is working hard. This does not happen with Studio One)

Another situation is something like a Steinberg Midex interface working with Cubase and LTB (Linear Time Base) gets employed. Same thing for Emagic Unitor interface and Logic AMT (Active Midi Transmission) when these things kick in some extra features become available. (in both of these cases midi timing does get tightened up by a factor of roughly 10)

None of those situations apply here.

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Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8 and 2018- Atom Pad- iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface and Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V3.5/4.1, Notion 6, Ableton Live 9, LaunchPad Pro
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by Jim Roseberry on Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:30 am
j0001s wroteWhat I do to check this is:
  • Create a click track. You can render the metronome (click on the wrench in the metronome area - render is there)
  • Take a microphone and jam in up to your speaker or headphone driver
  • Play back the click track and record it on a new track
  • Measure the offset between the two
  • Compensate for it. It may take a combination of Ignore Audio Timestamps and Record Offset.

Once the audio is correct, then you can look at the midi.


FWIW, You don't need to use a mic/preamp to record the click-track from your monitor speakers.
You can perform the same "record offset" test by routing the audio click-track to one of your audio interface's outputs, patching that output to one of your audio interface inputs, and re-recording the click-track to another audio track. Then, zoom-in and measure the offset between the two (in samples). That's the record offset.

Best Regards,
Jim Roseberry
www.studiocat.com
[email protected]
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by j0001s on Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:40 pm
Jim Roseberry wroteFWIW, You don't need to use a mic/preamp to record the click-track from your monitor speakers.
You can perform the same "record offset" test by routing the audio click-track to one of your audio interface's outputs, patching that output to one of your audio interface inputs, and re-recording the click-track to another audio track. Then, zoom-in and measure the offset between the two (in samples). That's the record offset.


You are right, of course. You can do the loopback with any connection from an output to an input.

I do the mic thing because I'm using a Lavry D/A attached to my interface for monitoring. It adds latency that I want to account for, and (for reasons of laziness) I don't want to crawl in my rack to disconnect the speakers so I can do a cable loopback. Also, more and more monitors are using built in DSP, which will add latency. Using the mic approach will capture this.

But in most cases, a wire loopback will do the trick.

Thinking about it now, my 130ish sample latency is most certainly the Lavry, which my interface wouldn't know about.

In Blade's case, I strongly suspect that for some reason his interface isn't reporting the latency to S1 correctly.

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