Discuss using Dante, Audinate Software and Dante enabled consoles, etc.
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Ok, dumb question... When I send an input in to the RM32AI as Dante it appears as though it bypasses the preamp or at least is inserted after it. The fat channel effects still work and I can cheat by using the gain on a compressor, but that seems... hack-y...

Is this expected with Dante? In the Dante domain am I not allowed to gain up a channel like that and/or am I thinking/doing this wrong? On my AVB based systems the preamp works and I can add a touch of gain to any channel so I'm a pinch confused as to the thought process here.
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by sjc193 on Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:28 am
The preamps are analog and only work on the analog inputs, they exist before the A/D converter. The Daunte streams are digital and are brought in right after the A/D converter, same with Firewire or AVB streams.

If the signal is a live mic then there would be a preamp somewhere that could be turned up. But it sounds like you may be bringing in recorded material that was maybe not gained up as much as you'd have liked, so yep, you have to use the compressor gain, I do the same thing in my studio one daw in post if I need a signal louder too, but I do find that I can only add so much before it starts to sound funny to me so it does make me wonder just how flat the compressor gain knob is. . .?

Steve

StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram
ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router
IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260
2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's
2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers
4 EV ZLX-12P's, 2 Yamaha S115V's
4 Behringer EP2500 amps, 1 QSC Amp
10 58/57 mics, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021, 1 beta52 kick mic
2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's
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by Bencredible on Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:55 am
The issue I'm seeing specifically is indeed a live mic off of a Shure ULXD system. I can certainly turn up the output on the reciever. Just thought it funny.

I have the CS18 and have used inputs 33/34 as AVB to the system (before I swapped the card) and if I remember right those did get to use the preamp. And/or it has its own pre on the CS18 side. The rest of my AVB system allows for preamp usage. This is the first time I have seen the signal insert after the pre and not before it. Easily worked around. Just an odd design choice.
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by sjc193 on Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:03 am
The CS18 does have a couple actual preamps in it to gain up those mics before they ever get sent to the RM.

I would think it'd be weird if you could use the preamp on a digital input, because they'd have to use a D/A converter to the pre back to an A/D converter again, that's a lot of convertin'

Steve

StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram
ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router
IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260
2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's
2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers
4 EV ZLX-12P's, 2 Yamaha S115V's
4 Behringer EP2500 amps, 1 QSC Amp
10 58/57 mics, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021, 1 beta52 kick mic
2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's
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by Bencredible on Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:18 am
You can gain stage digitally without needing D>A>D conversion. I don't know if the Presonus board has the hardware/logic to do that, but it absolutely possible.
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by sjc193 on Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:44 am
Sounds like a reasonable feature request to me.

As more and more people start bringing in digital inputs from other systems with daunte, a pre FAT channel/meter digital gain knob could probably really come in handy. Could save you running from one side of the building to the other to turn up a pre or output from a daunte device.

There is a place around here somewhere (maybe FAQ page or somewhere around there) where you can make feature requests and other people can vote them up, if it gets a lot of votes it becomes a higher priority for the engineers to implement. I suggest you go check it out and add the request if it isn't already there.

Steve

StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram
ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router
IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260
2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's
2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers
4 EV ZLX-12P's, 2 Yamaha S115V's
4 Behringer EP2500 amps, 1 QSC Amp
10 58/57 mics, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021, 1 beta52 kick mic
2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's
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by roblof on Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:37 am
Bencredible wroteThe issue I'm seeing specifically is indeed a live mic off of a Shure ULXD system. I can certainly turn up the output on the reciever. Just thought it funny.

I have the CS18 and have used inputs 33/34 as AVB to the system (before I swapped the card) and if I remember right those did get to use the preamp. And/or it has its own pre on the CS18 side. The rest of my AVB system allows for preamp usage. This is the first time I have seen the signal insert after the pre and not before it. Easily worked around. Just an odd design choice.

In this case the ulxd probably should be considered the preamp and that the output level does just thst.

iMac late 2015, Behringer X-Touch, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, x32 with Dante/aes67, x32-rack with Dante/aes67, s16 and sd16 stageboxes, p16 monitor system, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Motör 61, BCR-2000, StudioLive 24, FirePod 10, Alesis HD24, Studio One Pro v3.5.6, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate, Nuendo 8.2, Ableton Live 8 Suite, Reaper 4, misc Line6 gear/software, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Yamaha 02r.....
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by Bencredible on Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:32 pm
roblof wroteIn this case the ulxd probably should be considered the preamp and that the output level does just thst.


Oh yeah, that is a totally viable solution and very likely what we will do. Just sucks because the RM32, wireless gear and all of our routing equipment is nowhere near the control room. So any gain adjustments need to be made well in advance as once we start the show we won't be able to access them anymore.

We'll see if we stay Dante for the mics or move back to Analog. It is nice having everything stay in the digital realm, but small gotchas like this add up :cry: The upside of being able to route the mix-minus feeds right back to the IFBs directly through Dante is *freaking awesome* though. Removed a lot of A>D>A>D conversion!
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by roblof on Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:21 pm
Bencredible wrote
roblof wroteIn this case the ulxd probably should be considered the preamp and that the output level does just thst.


Oh yeah, that is a totally viable solution and very likely what we will do. Just sucks because the RM32, wireless gear and all of our routing equipment is nowhere near the control room. So any gain adjustments need to be made well in advance as once we start the show we won't be able to access them anymore.

We'll see if we stay Dante for the mics or move back to Analog. It is nice having everything stay in the digital realm, but small gotchas like this add up :cry: The upside of being able to route the mix-minus feeds right back to the IFBs directly through Dante is *freaking awesome* though. Removed a lot of A>D>A>D conversion!

Shure offers a remote control app for computer (ipad?) so that could work for this scenario using a cheap computer (laptop) if no other is available.

Aes67 together with aes70 is supposed to remedy issues like this in the future.

iMac late 2015, Behringer X-Touch, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, x32 with Dante/aes67, x32-rack with Dante/aes67, s16 and sd16 stageboxes, p16 monitor system, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Motör 61, BCR-2000, StudioLive 24, FirePod 10, Alesis HD24, Studio One Pro v3.5.6, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate, Nuendo 8.2, Ableton Live 8 Suite, Reaper 4, misc Line6 gear/software, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Yamaha 02r.....
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by Bencredible on Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:12 am
roblof wroteShure offers a remote control app for computer (ipad?) so that could work for this scenario using a cheap computer (laptop) if no other is available.

Aes67 together with aes70 is supposed to remedy issues like this in the future.


That remote app is a great workaround. The software is a bit clunky but very powerful. Sucks a bit that my A1 can't just adjust the gain structure on the fly without contacting E1 for tweaks (A1 doesn't have a computer or really any room to add one). But at least we can make the adjustment. I wasn't aware of the software before, so you really helped my workflow. Thank you for that!

I'm excited for the day that Ethernet/IP based audio is all flushed out. Dante is the closest I have seen, but there still seem to be a few gotchas here and there. Way, way, way more convenient than running analog audio lines everywhere though. I'll take a minor gripe with gain over dealing with analog runs, ground hum and signal loss/decay any day!
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by roblof on Sun Mar 27, 2016 4:01 am
Bencredible wroteThat remote app is a great workaround. The software is a bit clunky but very powerful. Sucks a bit that my A1 can't just adjust the gain structure on the fly without contacting E1 for tweaks (A1 doesn't have a computer or really any room to add one). But at least we can make the adjustment. I wasn't aware of the software before, so you really helped my workflow. Thank you for that!

I've just learnt that yamaha and shure collaborated and the CL-series of mixers have native control over the ulxd gain control.

Quite nice (if you have a CL that is :P ).

iMac late 2015, Behringer X-Touch, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, x32 with Dante/aes67, x32-rack with Dante/aes67, s16 and sd16 stageboxes, p16 monitor system, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Motör 61, BCR-2000, StudioLive 24, FirePod 10, Alesis HD24, Studio One Pro v3.5.6, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate, Nuendo 8.2, Ableton Live 8 Suite, Reaper 4, misc Line6 gear/software, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Yamaha 02r.....
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by matthewseymour on Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:42 am
I would love it if there were an agreed standard for preamp gain control over dante
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by roblof on Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:32 am
matthewseymour wroteI would love it if there were an agreed standard for preamp gain control over dante

That would most likely be aes70 that will accompany aes67.

iMac late 2015, Behringer X-Touch, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, x32 with Dante/aes67, x32-rack with Dante/aes67, s16 and sd16 stageboxes, p16 monitor system, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Motör 61, BCR-2000, StudioLive 24, FirePod 10, Alesis HD24, Studio One Pro v3.5.6, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate, Nuendo 8.2, Ableton Live 8 Suite, Reaper 4, misc Line6 gear/software, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Yamaha 02r.....
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by matthewseymour on Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:24 am
Yep, wouldn't it be lovely if it was widely implemented....
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by eduardogonzalez6 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:03 pm
Did this feature of gain control got fixed with AES67?
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by roblof on Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:56 am
No, aes67 is a pure audio streaming protocol.

Aes70 is still in the works and as far as I know not in the wild. ST2110 is also a part of all this in the end...

https://www.archwave.net/aes70

eduardogonzalez6 wroteDid this feature of gain control got fixed with AES67?

iMac late 2015, Behringer X-Touch, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, x32 with Dante/aes67, x32-rack with Dante/aes67, s16 and sd16 stageboxes, p16 monitor system, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Motör 61, BCR-2000, StudioLive 24, FirePod 10, Alesis HD24, Studio One Pro v3.5.6, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate, Nuendo 8.2, Ableton Live 8 Suite, Reaper 4, misc Line6 gear/software, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Yamaha 02r.....

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