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I have two questions.

1. I am recording two guitar tracks (doubling guitar) and even though the Audiobox 1818 gain knob is set the same (I'm using the same Audiobox 1818 channel for both tracks) and I duplicated the channel/track in Studio One 5.4 Pro so the settings are identical, the clip indicator goes on somewhere during the performance. Other than watching the channel while playing, does Studio One provide a way to see WHEN the channel clipped?

2. Also, when I look at the input meters, the red clip indicator light has a number inside it. Please see attached image showing a "7" on one meter and a "10" on the other meter. Does this mean one peaked at +7db and the other at +10 db? If so that was a big peak.

Thanks,
Don

Attachments
Input Meters Clip Indicator with numbers.jpg

Lenovo ThinkPad T480s - i5-8350U CPU @ 1.70GHz - 16GB RAM - Win 10 Pro 64 bit 20H2 - Intel(R) UHD Graphics 620 - Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL - Presons Studio One Pro v5.5 - Apple 27" Cinema Display - Yamaha HS50M Powered Monitors - M-AUDIO Keystation 88 MK3 controller - novation ZeRO SL MkII Control Surface
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by Jemusic on Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:28 pm
The clip indicators indicate when you have reached max digital level eg 0 dB FS. This should be avoided at all costs. So you should never see an input clip light during tracking really. Your levels are too high if you do.

The number in the red clip light is not a dB level at all. I tested this with a pure sine wave going in and even you push the signal just up a tiny bit it can show high number. I thought it might be something to do with the samples being clipped initially.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by donander2935 on Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:15 pm
Yeah, I know it should be avoided at all costs.

Is there a way to tell WHERE in the performance you just recorded that it clipped? If there is one particular place then one could conceivably know to back off a bit at that place in the performance.

I guess I can do a "dry run" without recording and watch the clip indicator to see where it goes on. Otherwise I would just have to keep backing the knob down one click at a time on the interface.

Don

Lenovo ThinkPad T480s - i5-8350U CPU @ 1.70GHz - 16GB RAM - Win 10 Pro 64 bit 20H2 - Intel(R) UHD Graphics 620 - Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL - Presons Studio One Pro v5.5 - Apple 27" Cinema Display - Yamaha HS50M Powered Monitors - M-AUDIO Keystation 88 MK3 controller - novation ZeRO SL MkII Control Surface
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by Jemusic on Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:54 am
You could check the waveform after recording very carefully. Zoom the height so its large and check for any flattening of the waveform. (or put the recording into something like Adobe Audition and do a close inspection. Note: good use for an editor program)

But you are better off just checking the loudest part of the performance and backing off the input gain so that at that point it does not clip. Don't sweat the rest being too quiet. Its easy to bring those sections up and keep the loud bits down a bit.

I had to record an orchestra once with a stereo mic. I knew there was a loud section in the performance. The only way I could avoid clipping was to get the conductor to take them through the loudest sections in the rehearsal just prior to the show and I adjusted my gain controls for that. Thats all you can do.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by Lokeyfly on Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:49 am
donander2935 wroteYeah, I know it should be avoided at all costs.

Is there a way to tell WHERE in the performance you just recorded that it clipped? If there is one particular place then one could conceivably know to back off a bit at that place in the performance.

I guess I can do a "dry run" without recording and watch the clip indicator to see where it goes on. Otherwise I would just have to keep backing the knob down one click at a time on the interface.

Don

Yes, as Jemusic mentioned, scanning the waveform of the input recording afterwards. There are several ways sometimes looking for flattening can be tough so while Studio One shows a peak indication (metered) it won't show where.
Two methods I use. (Combined detail)
Either position the waveform so that the scaled waveform reaches near the top edge. Locate the highest peaks, which will reveal the trouble spots.
If theres simply way too many peaks, for example drum hits or whatever, but you like the recording signal you have, place a limiter on your input channel(s). You can rough it with for example a -2 dB reduction or inch up on it, but a better way is get a reading from either a true peak meter inserted in the Track. A way I like better is place a limiter on the channel. Set the limiter ceiling so it just ever so slightly shows limiting occuring. A view from the "reduction" meter will show to tenths of a dB what is occurring. You may have to lower the ceiling or threshold to get the limiter to view reduction. Its highly accurate.The beauty of this way is you might read 0.6 dB (lets hope not a whopping 7.0 dB). Ok. If it's 0 6 dB, you can insert (or save and retrieve your stored Limiter settings) but fastest way is now simply drag the Limiter FX to your input channel insert. It will already be set, so you can adjust the limiter, or decrease your input gain, which is up to you. 7 dB reduction. You're obviously going to reduce your input gain so the limiter is not over working.

The Studio One Limiter is darn good, so it will handle 5 to 6 dB reduction without any discernable distortion or artifacts.

Jeff, just in passing: I still wouldn't go to an outboard audio editor, because what if you find what was distorted (audably)? You still would find the trouble spot(s), yes. However, if you just remain in the DAW, you drag your adjusted limiter to the input. Yes, there is the outside chance that the editor "could" fix the issue (not at 7 dB though), but sure it's really up to the issue at hard.

Anyway, donander2935 has some options!

Oh yeah, LoL. Another way I meant to say is YouLean has a wonderful and free loudness meter that you can set up peak RMS, K metering LUFS, etc, etc.
Place it on the track,, and watch for the "blood" :) (red peaks that is).

My quick workflow method to just "get er' done", is the Presonus Limiter it's that fast, and that good.
I can shave to one tenths, reduction, and the limiter won't even seem like it's there, and do the job invisibly.. From bass guitar to cymbals.

Safe,

S1-5.5.1, HP Omen 17" i7 10th Gen Laptop, 32 GB ram,512 GB TLC M.2 (SSD) and 1 TB SSD (both Internal). Audient iD14 MkII, Controllers: Arturia Keylab 49 MkII, Novation SL25 MKII, Faderport 8, Roland JV-90, Roland GR-50, Roland Octapad, Akai MPD-18. MIDI Patchbay: MOTU MIDI Express XT, Mackie HR824, Yamaha HS-7, NS-1000M, Mixer: Yamaha Promix 01, Rane HC-6 Headohone Mixer.

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by SwitchBack on Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:33 pm
From the OP's picture I take that this concerns input clipping, i.e. clipping the A/D converter of the interface. There is no limiter in S1 that can protect you from that because the clipping has already happened on the way in. The only solution is to bring the levels before A/D conversion down. Simplest is to turn down input gain on the interface. More advanced options involve analog filtering and/or compression before the signal hits the ADC.

Have a look at this video. It's a little long-winded but in conclusion Dave demonstrates that the best performance of a digital interface may actually be at a lower level than you may expect, and that going even lower than that may not hurt (much) either. Interesting.

And as for the numbers on the clip indicator I think it's an indication of the number of times the signal has clipped the converter, sort of an indication of the number of peaks or area's that got distorted due to the clipping.
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by Jemusic on Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:17 pm
I only meant that Adobe Audition would show a clipped area pretty easily. It does have the ability to repair clipped audio. Something a DAW cannot do.

Switchback is very right here too. You have to stop the analog signal from clipping prior to A to D conversion. Level setting is the key. The best approach is to put a VU meter on the Input channel instead and set it so -18db FS = 0 db VU. (or even better the K System ref of -20 dB FS= 0 dB VU) Then you just aim for the VU to be around the 0 dB mark for most of the performance. At least then you know you have got 18 or 20 dB of headroom above that.

The very best musicians actually play at a very consistent level I have found and very sudden changes in level is often attributed to lesser players. Although once I had to record an opera singer for a radio commercial. And for most of the take the level was good but there was one section though that was like 15 dB louder than the rest. The only way I could handle it was use an analog compressor set for limiting on the way in to just catch the very loud bit and hold it back.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by SwitchBack on Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:32 pm
With the number of inputs available on interfaces these days there's yet another option: Record critical sources on two channels: One channel at your presumed optimal input gain, and the second input e.g. 12dB lower. Should your best guess channel clip then you have the second track to repair the damage. And you can use Dave Rat's polarity inverted method to find the damaged spots.
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by Lokeyfly on Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:48 pm
First, thanks for the vid.Switchback. I enjoyed the video driving home from work. I had to view it twice, driving and all. :) I also agree with Dave Rats results, his nulling process he used and points made. Everything he simply pointed out in a fairly constructive approach as well as what potentially won't null, and why (analog and digital). I also have seen similar nulling conditions.

On to the OP"s question which on the second try he noted with capital letters."WHERE in the performance". .
donnander2935 wrote "Is there a way to tell WHERE in the performance you just recorded that it clipped? If there is one particular place then one could conceivably know to back off a bit at that place in the performance."



I dont think theres a question of where to back off at the recording level. That being at the interface Inut level, preamp, mic pad, or wherever the analog location before digital conversion takes place. Weather you gain stage, or simply back off of the level. Though, hey maybe I misunderstood. My point was locating, and prevention after reducing a level. Not the signal chain, though maybe that was Don"s intent, after he found "where".

I figured the image he provided was just showing where he observed it peaked, and perhaps where to find such peaks along the linear track. Sort of like a chart recorder. That would be the waveform.

My point of using the limiter has nothing to do with preventing the analog side of level control. A source though, for sure.

As to a limiter: The fact remains, even if one has set levels where distortion or clipping will not occur, Placing a limiter at the Input signal chain will prevent exceeding zero dB. It can brick wall accurately to tenths of a dB. Limiting also can assist in reducing peak transients even well before zero dB where reducing such peaks aid in control of the recording for future maximizing needs.That's it, nothing more, nothing less (just ask my 68' Fender P Bass). If the analog side is a known cause for clipping, a hardware limiter will serve well. One can also perform a little fly by the seat gain riding, or dry rehearsal sound check as Jeff mentioned.

Jeff. There's no "right". There ARE points made.

S1-5.5.1, HP Omen 17" i7 10th Gen Laptop, 32 GB ram,512 GB TLC M.2 (SSD) and 1 TB SSD (both Internal). Audient iD14 MkII, Controllers: Arturia Keylab 49 MkII, Novation SL25 MKII, Faderport 8, Roland JV-90, Roland GR-50, Roland Octapad, Akai MPD-18. MIDI Patchbay: MOTU MIDI Express XT, Mackie HR824, Yamaha HS-7, NS-1000M, Mixer: Yamaha Promix 01, Rane HC-6 Headohone Mixer.

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by Lokeyfly on Sat Jan 15, 2022 1:38 am
donander2935 wrote: "2. Also, when I look at the input meters, the red clip indicator light has a number inside it. Please see attached image showing a "7" on one meter and a "10" on the other meter. Does this mean one peaked at +7db and the other at +10 db? If so that was a big peak."


Hey Don, Once the signal passes 0 dBfs, there's signal reconstruction so the numbers change from dBs past the zero threshold (no longer negative). At least for the first few numbers displayed past zero, they're still somewhat close to decibals for a very small margin but loses interpolation immediately. This I've compared only in a course way when reducing my levels past clipping, but it's a small margin where perhaps up to 3 (as dB's figurativey) will be helpful, but 7 in your example won't be.

Interestingly, a very accurate reading is when stemming out, exporting a mix, or rendering. You'll see a dialog notice with noted dBs to tenths of a dB.passed the 0 dB FS threshold. So overshooting by 6.3 dB"s, means if you scale back 6.5 dB's, you will target -0.2 dB's. With the exception of if any other channel combined dB added to the clipping. You have to sort of ballpark reduction then.

It would be nice if that same dialog reading were in real time on the peak meters, via its 32/64 FP internal processing. Without stemming, or mixing further, it's really at that meter location anyway, passed zero, just scrambled eggs fairly quickly.

S1-5.5.1, HP Omen 17" i7 10th Gen Laptop, 32 GB ram,512 GB TLC M.2 (SSD) and 1 TB SSD (both Internal). Audient iD14 MkII, Controllers: Arturia Keylab 49 MkII, Novation SL25 MKII, Faderport 8, Roland JV-90, Roland GR-50, Roland Octapad, Akai MPD-18. MIDI Patchbay: MOTU MIDI Express XT, Mackie HR824, Yamaha HS-7, NS-1000M, Mixer: Yamaha Promix 01, Rane HC-6 Headohone Mixer.

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by SwitchBack on Sat Jan 15, 2022 3:56 am
With A/D clipping there is no ‘past zero’. It’s like driving a high-loaded truck under a low flyover. What’s left of it on the other side after it hits has nothing to do anymore with how high the load was originally. So an A/D converter can indicate that it’s input was clipping but inside the computer there is zero information as to how much the converter input was over the limit.

If the goal is an undistorted signal then inserting a limiter in the DAW will only make matters worse, because by dulling the peaks a limiter is distorting the signal too. It will give you an indication that something might be clipping but by then it’s too late already.
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by Lokeyfly on Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:55 am
="SwitchBack"If the goal is an undistorted signal then inserting a limiter in the DAW will only make matters worse, because by dulling the peaks a limiter is distorting the signal too. It will give you an indication that something might be clipping but by then it’s too late already.


Not sure you're driving at a point no one has or is discussing here. The subject is more than adaquetely covered.

A digital limiter ("In the DAW" as you state being a little too vague) Inserted at the input is not to prevent anything in the analog state from clipping, or distoring. It couldn't, and no one is driving that point that you again mention.

If someone tracking wants to set inout gain at -18 dB but is still looking to not even Brickwall, but set a safety net at the digital ceiling somewhere between -1 and -0.3 dBFS (or the limiter reduction weight I stated earlier from reading peak value), one can use a digital limiter. To that end it works entering with the digital domein, magnificently. Please stop distorting that (pun intended).

If someone wants to minimize analog distortion, they A) Turn down the input level (gain), B) insert a hardware limiter to potentially help. They can and do when the need arises. I have a Fostex RM-3 that works pretty darn good when called upon.

I'm certainly not going to go into semantics on a limiter in the analog world. A simple Delta test will show that and digital differences, so let's not get too microscopic here.

Since I know you know better about a in the DAW limiter, I'll just pass on some of the benefits of its use in this Izotope discussion.

https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/an-introduction-to-limiters-and-how-to-use-them.html

I'm sure Don knows where to turn down, he's trying to gauge by how much, so he doesnt have to do that incrementally. Read the OP.. A limiter, meter, or audio editor will give a number at the waveform. That was the direction here (is my best guess).

S1-5.5.1, HP Omen 17" i7 10th Gen Laptop, 32 GB ram,512 GB TLC M.2 (SSD) and 1 TB SSD (both Internal). Audient iD14 MkII, Controllers: Arturia Keylab 49 MkII, Novation SL25 MKII, Faderport 8, Roland JV-90, Roland GR-50, Roland Octapad, Akai MPD-18. MIDI Patchbay: MOTU MIDI Express XT, Mackie HR824, Yamaha HS-7, NS-1000M, Mixer: Yamaha Promix 01, Rane HC-6 Headohone Mixer.

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by Jemusic on Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:09 pm
I sometimes use an analog (or digital) dynamics processing before reaching the interface. And the moment you put something like that on the signal, the VU moves in a different way. They can be setup to make your recordings sound great before they even reach Studio One.

Also I have used compressors/limiters as Lokeyfly suggests on the input channels and they can be very useful especially for drums. They can also be set so they don't distort or damage the signal prior to getting to the track. Pristine quality can be maintained even when these processes are acting. Everything is useful on the input channels. It's a great feature of Studio One in that so much can be inserted there prior to reaching the raw track.

If you are not sure what to put there then don't put anything there and just practice some good level setting techniques. Level changes from musicians during performances can be also be really great too. Let go of recording hot. That is being carried over from the analog tape days. The digital system can record everything much lower now. So much so that even really loud changes should be able to be captured without any clipping involved.

Another area is monitoring. If you are recording things down lower in the digital system then they need to be turned up in your monitoring system so you can hear everything you are doing very clearly.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by donander2935 on Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:11 pm
Wow, lots of activity here. I guess I must have forgotten to check the "Notify me when a reply is posted" checkbox. I don't fully grasp all the details of all the posts in this discussion but the bottom line for me is that I think I will just try bumping the input pad on the Audiobox 1818VST down by one or two clicks and try again. I will also try watching the clip light while recording to see if I can see when it illuminates. Finally, I will work on playing at a more consistent level on my guitar during each take.

Here's another newbie question. I want to add a signature but I am not able to see where to create that in my Presonus profile. Here is what I want to add.

Specs: Lenovo ThinkPad T480s - i5-8350U CPU @ 1.70GHz - 16GB RAM - Win 10 Pro 64 bit 20H2 - Intel(R) UHD Graphics 620 - Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL - Presons Studio One Pro v5.5 - Apple 27" Cinema Display - Yamaha HS50M Powered Monitors - M-AUDIO Keystation 88 MK3 controller - novation ZeRO SL MkII Control Surface

Thanks much for all the people who contributed to answering my questions,
Don

Lenovo ThinkPad T480s - i5-8350U CPU @ 1.70GHz - 16GB RAM - Win 10 Pro 64 bit 20H2 - Intel(R) UHD Graphics 620 - Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL - Presons Studio One Pro v5.5 - Apple 27" Cinema Display - Yamaha HS50M Powered Monitors - M-AUDIO Keystation 88 MK3 controller - novation ZeRO SL MkII Control Surface
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by SwitchBack on Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:19 pm
Go to: User Control Panel / Profile / Edit Signature :)
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by klypeman on Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:37 pm
@don
You can add your signature by pressing the red signature below.
I suggest you copy what you wrote and paste 😌 if that’s what you want.

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Please add your specs to your SIGNATURE.
Search the STUDIO ONE 5 ONLINE MANUAL. Access your MY.PRESONUS account.
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by klypeman on Tue Feb 08, 2022 2:40 pm
@SwitchBack, Darn, you beat me to it

Forum Moderator.
Please add your specs to your SIGNATURE.
Search the STUDIO ONE 5 ONLINE MANUAL. Access your MY.PRESONUS account.
OVERVIEW of how to get your issue fixed or the steps to create a SUPPORT TICKET.
Needs to include: 1) One Sentence Description 2) Expected Results 3) Actual Results 4) Steps to Reproduce.


AMD Ryzen 7 3800X 8-Core 3.90 GHz Windows 10 64bit Home, MacBook Pro + Mini Big Sur, SO 4.6.2 Pro, SO 5.5 Pro, LUNA, Cubase 10.5 Pro, SLIII32, 24.4.2, 16.0.2 FW, Quantum 2626, Faderport 8, FaderPort 16, Atom, Atom SQ, Console 1+Fader 1, UA Apollo Twin TB/USB, Toontrack, NI Komplete 12, ++
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by donander2935 on Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:14 pm
I used SwitchBack's suggestion.
BTW, I like the PNP transistor and sign wave.
Hopefully my signature will appear below when I click Submit.
Don

Lenovo ThinkPad T480s - i5-8350U CPU @ 1.70GHz - 16GB RAM - Win 10 Pro 64 bit 20H2 - Intel(R) UHD Graphics 620 - Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL - Presons Studio One Pro v5.5 - Apple 27" Cinema Display - Yamaha HS50M Powered Monitors - M-AUDIO Keystation 88 MK3 controller - novation ZeRO SL MkII Control Surface
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by SwitchBack on Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:33 pm
Yeah, the transistor kinda stuck from the very first PreSonus forum. It had a dark background then, matching the dark mode theme of that forum. I liked it better that way :)

Note that avatars have a pixel size limit, something like 600x600. Too large and they won’t show.
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by donander2935 on Tue Feb 08, 2022 7:57 pm
Ok, this is getting way off the original topic but I went to the User Control Panel > Avatar and there I saw, under the generic anonymous avatar "Please go to https://my.presonus.com to update your account settings." I clicked on that link and uploaded a profile picture, which I now see when I log in to presonus.com but I don't see it on this forum. Is the avatar different from the profile picture and if so how do I set that one?
Thanks,
Don

Lenovo ThinkPad T480s - i5-8350U CPU @ 1.70GHz - 16GB RAM - Win 10 Pro 64 bit 20H2 - Intel(R) UHD Graphics 620 - Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL - Presons Studio One Pro v5.5 - Apple 27" Cinema Display - Yamaha HS50M Powered Monitors - M-AUDIO Keystation 88 MK3 controller - novation ZeRO SL MkII Control Surface

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