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This reminds me of a freak bug with Serum that was a real "huh?" moment when the cause was found. I don't know, somehow my spidey sense tells me... this bug with Studio One is so weird and has a lot of similarities, it's worth bringing it up even though it's sort of unlikely.

The way the Serum GUI froze wasn't like anything that had happened on my system, with any software I had in use, and the setup was (and is) literally 100% stable otherwise (as in, over a week of uptime at a time, with DAW software and projects constantly loaded). Me or Duda couldn't put a finger on what it was.

I tried it on a completely different Windows system -- or so I thought. The only similarity was... Logitech mouse software :D, and that similarity gave it away. That was it, the unassuming mouse utility that sits in your taskbar and you can use it for macros and stuff. I had never considered it for the bloatware it actually is, but that's what was causing it. A current version of it works fine with Serum, too, of course.

Something about how it transparently hooks into active windows and determines whether the task is listed/supported for custom macros was triggering a freeze in the GUI.

After finding this out, shuddering of the thought of having had something like that installed on my system, I removed it and replaced the needed macro functionality with an Autohotkey script, aaah, perfect! Hehh :)

Anyway, if by any chance you are using Logitech mouse software and have weird GUI related issues, try both installing the very latest version and also completely uninstalling it for a while. (Preferrably getting rid of it in any case :), but that's more like... a personal aesthetic thing of DAW system cleanliness, ehh.) It's a long shot, but because of the mechanics involved, it's worth a try.

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by Skaperverket on Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:47 am
Nokatus wroteThis reminds me of a freak bug with Serum that was a real "huh?" moment when the cause was found. I don't know, somehow my spidey sense tells me... this bug with Studio One is so weird and has a lot of similarities, it's worth bringing it up even though it's sort of unlikely.

The way the Serum GUI froze wasn't like anything that had happened on my system, with any software I had in use, and the setup was (and is) literally 100% stable otherwise (as in, over a week of uptime at a time, with DAW software and projects constantly loaded). Me or Duda couldn't put a finger on what it was.

I tried it on a completely different Windows system -- or so I thought. The only similarity was... Logitech mouse software :D, and that similarity gave it away. That was it, the unassuming mouse utility that sits in your taskbar and you can use it for macros and stuff. I had never considered it for the bloatware it actually is, but that's what was causing it. A current version of it works fine with Serum, too, of course.

Something about how it transparently hooks into active windows and determines whether the task is listed/supported for custom macros was triggering a freeze in the GUI.

After finding this out, shuddering of the thought of having had something like that installed on my system, I removed it and replaced the needed macro functionality with an Autohotkey script, aaah, perfect! Hehh :)

Anyway, if by any chance you are using Logitech mouse software and have weird GUI related issues, try both installing the very latest version and also completely uninstalling it for a while. (Preferrably getting rid of it in any case :), but that's more like... a personal aesthetic thing of DAW system cleanliness, ehh.) It's a long shot, but because of the mechanics involved, it's worth a try.


This is actually a very good advice! (I've recently made the move from macOS to Windows and in the process I've done quite a bit of research, and if there's one thing I've noticed, it's got to be that there is a whole universe of interdependencies within a system and that things like graphics driver versions, ethernet card drivers, macro and gaming add-ons, overclocking/monitoring utilities etc. can cause all kinds of random and hard to de-bug issues, often when you'd think there's no way that something as seemingly innocent, random and unrelated could be the reason for all this digital misbehavior; this is why I uninstall anything I don't use, keep my DAW boot partition offline and try to keep everything within it as simple as possible.) Hope Nokatus' suggestion points to something helpful to those with these problems. Sounds like a true pain.
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by sebastianholtzer on Sun Jun 03, 2018 4:43 am
Hey you guys are good. I`m using a Gaming Mouse. It`s a Logitech G500s. Before, I had the first Version of it, the G500.

I`m loving that Mouse, cause I can change simply the Dpi-Setting (I`m using/switching between 1150 and 200Dpi), which is really, really great for tuning Midi fine at the Knobs and moving the Automation lanes all around and much, much more. And of course I put Shortcuts to my 10 Mouse-Buttons. I never want back a standard Mouse, alone because of the difference it makes, when you turn on the 1000Hz signal rate. So smooth and fine. Really love that and can`t do without that since years now.

The same for my Keyboard. It´s a Logitech G105. I`ve set up Shortcuts I really need on my G-Buttons and so on. And of course sometimes I play Games, but as older I get the more interest lingers.

***
@jdurham
You did not wrote back. Means you`re out as I`m thinking it would make no sense cause it`s not matching, right? Does`nt matter. Let`s hope they find it at wdkbeats one.
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by Lokeyfly on Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:42 am
Nokatus wrote
This reminds me of a freak bug with Serum that was a real "huh?" moment when the cause was found. I don't know, somehow my spidey sense tells me... this bug with Studio One is so weird and has a lot of similarities, it's worth bringing it up even though it's sort of unlikely.

The way the Serum GUI froze wasn't like anything that had happened on my system, with any software I had in use, and the setup was (and is) literally 100% stable otherwise (as in, over a week of uptime at a time, with DAW software and projects constantly loaded). Me or Duda couldn't put a finger on what it was.

I tried it on a completely different Windows system -- or so I thought. The only similarity was... Logitech mouse software , and that similarity gave it away. That was it, the unassuming mouse utility that sits in your taskbar and you can use it for macros and stuff. I had never considered it for the bloatware it actually is, but that's what was causing it. A current version of it works fine with Serum, too, of course.


I never had such a "freak bug" with Serum, and I've owned Serum since it was released. If Steve helped nokatus with this, that's the kind of guy he is. Even when it is likely (and in this case was) the Logitech mouse software. A similar occurrence happened to me on the desktop in my studio. In my case, I tried to force feed a Logitech mouse used with an older OS mouse driver used for that same Logitech mouse. So I weeded out the problem myself, but that part was a similar condition, which was a few fundamental key commands, and USB gremlins with my MIDI patch bay, but not with Serum, which has been rock solid with any Logitech mouse I've used. For the records, my occurence was with S1 v2, and Windows 7, but that sort of mouse driver conflict still, and can occur today. Often from an antiquated driver.

"Bug" is often a word best left alone, in most any case. To clarify your problem wasn't with Serum, but with the Logitech software itself. But I think we all agree it's a pain when things just don't work, due to different peripherals plugged in, by different manufacturers. Nice that a owner/developer helped you out even when it wasn't their product's emmmm...bug.


Like Skaperverket mentions, and I whole heartedly agree, with PC's, it's best to scale down and be selective of what you install. That is if one cares about the work they're trying to accomplish. It's an excellent point.

Curious, has anyone experienced and submitted any direct related "Problems with Automation", as originally posted. Underline "submitted", because I was reading through a few pages from this thread, but came away hearing the word "bug" than any submitted development. If a problem exists, as that can happen, rather than exchange a list of VST's used when there is an occurrence, I was simply curious if any confirmation was made Anywhere relevant to automation. Then Presonus can actually stick their claws into fixing a problem. I realize, submitting a problem may not have happened yet due to some outside or non repeatable condition. I did read the side-chain occurrence from several users, and that JPettit reported that. I just couldn't read any compiled or concise list, but perhaps I missed that.
Thx guys (ahead).
Last edited by Lokeyfly on Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by jdurham on Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:20 am
sebastianholtzer wrote@jdurham
You did not wrote back. Means you`re out as I`m thinking it would make no sense cause it`s not matching, right? Does`nt matter. Let`s hope they find it at wdkbeats one.


Hi Sebastian, why would I write back? The last thing I said was:

jdurham wroteUntil someone posts a file with the problem to test, I'll bow out of commenting in this thread for now. I think I've said my point of view over and over and I think I'm getting redundant and now wasting space. Whatever happens, I hope the problem is resolved for all of us!


And the last thing you said was "impossible":

sebastianholtzer wrote
jdurham wroteAgain, for me to test it, please limit your file to plugins by ...

Impossible.


And since no one has posted a file since then, there's really nothing more for me to say. Other than I think you guys are on the right track with hardware issues, driver issues, etc. Logitech could be one of the culprits. I personally never install certain kinds of products/drivers if I can avoid them, and like Lokefly and Skaperverket have suggested, it's best to "be selective of what you install." The functionality of some of those feature-laden drivers (like the Logitech one) sometimes requires deeper hooks into Windows than other, more simple devices. Windows is a very complex ecosystem so I wouldn't be surprised if it's something like that causing the problems for you. I have also run into similar things in the distant past and learned my lesson to avoid certain kinds of drivers/products if possible. Some nVidia driver recently caused some problems for people too. (BTW, I use nVidia's latest drivers, and have no problems).

Like I said before, I haven't had the automation problem myself, and I spent some time creating my own test with *very* complex automation (over 350 lanes of dense automation), and Studio One 3.5.6 and 4.0.0 rendered just great. But I believe you guys, and I said I was willing to help if someone posted a sample file with plugins that I have. No one has been willing to do that, which surprises me and makes no sense to me given the frustration people seemed to have expressed in this tread. I keep repeating myself and I honestly don't understand some of the people in this thread at this point, so it's best if I bow out. And I've honestly felt like I've wasted my time trying to help. This has been a learning experience for me. So at least send your files to Presonus, they really do have good support, and their developers are excellent IMO. I've personally had contact with the development team, and I believe they really care and are working hard to make an amazing product.

Now there's nothing else I can contribute to this thread, and I hope it gets resolved for you!
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by Nokatus on Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:28 am
Lokeyfly wroteI never had such a "freak bug" with Serum, and I've owned Serum since it was released.


It was a freak bug exactly because it was so rare, yeah. I hadn't experienced this with anything in years and years either (and haven't since), and this was a one-off case with a particular Logitech mouse utility version and Serum. It happened literally "with Serum", and the Logitech software, combined, and it wasn't a bug in Serum per se.

Lokeyfly wroteIf Steve helped nokatus with this, that's the kind of guy he is. Even when it is likely (and in this case was) the Logitech mouse software.


He's a great guy. Luckily I didn't need much help on this at all, as I weeded out the problem as you did with the issue you described :). The software combo was found through routine testing and comparing systems; the thing that took me some time to find and was surprising in the end was the actual cause.

Lokeyfly wroteTo clarify your problem wasn't with Serum, but with the Logitech software itself.


Of course, both of them, yes. The problem was with Serum and the Logitech software interacting in a way that caused an unwanted state. The Logitech software worked completely with everything else I used, and Serum worked completely if there wasn't that sketchy Logitech software present.

Lokeyfly wroteBut I think we all agree it's a pain when things just don't work, due to different peripherals plugged in, by different manufacturers. Nice that a owner/developer helped you out even when it wasn't their emmmm...bug.


Clarified above :)

Lokeyfly wroteLike Skaperverket mentions, and I whole heartedly agree, with PC's, it's best to scale down and be selective of what you install. That is if one cares about the work they're trying to accomplish. It's an excellent point.


I agree with and very strictly practice this methodology, yeah. That's the "aesthetic of DAW system cleanliness" I mentioned previously, hehe, and the way to a dependable, stable system. I also recommend keeping a separate system partition that holds only the actual OS and application installations and configuration, and storing an image of that in a completely clean and "tried and tested to be working 24/7" state. If a software update or other software changes happen that compromise the total stability of the system, you can do a complete system revert to a known state in minutes and keep working.
Last edited by Nokatus on Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Nokatus on Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:25 am
jdurham wroteOther than I think you guys are on the right track with hardware issues, driver issues, etc. Logitech could be one of the culprits.


Yep... Bringing up the Logitech utility / Serum anecdote was because of the reproducible workaround details mentioned here -- on how simply interacting with the render dialog, i.e. "shaking the box" :) while the project is rendering, helps the automation to stay registering throughout the render and print into the mixdown as intended. So yeah, it's a long shot, but just in case, as the low-level GUI hook thing came to mind and caused that gut feeling.

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by jpettit on Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:44 am
The developers waded though this and the original thread at my request.
The only three hypothesis found was what I reported back to you.

Focus on that.

Try to avoid getting side tracked.
Thanks

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by Nokatus on Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:52 am
jpettit wroteTry to avoid getting side tracked.
Thanks


Ok, mentioned the above just in case because it's a rare thing and something that might not readily come to mind. Good to know it had already been considered.

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by jpettit on Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:56 am
No your fine.
You may have another hypothesis.
The mouse driver.
No matter what it is it has to be correlated and then repeatable.

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by Lokeyfly on Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:26 am
Anyway, thanks for your response, Nokatus. Only, I think the point would have been best clarified if perhaps it was directed as a Logitech failure, found when using Serum. I can appreciate you found the condition in Serum, and later came to the discovery that it was with Logitech. Hope I'm not sounding like the English teacher here, but just to make all points as concise as best. It's certainly useful, and appreciated. :thumbup:

I also can appreciate that you made clear, that such a problem may be somehow be related in the case with Studio One, in more of a "hey, watch out for, maybe..." (I'm paraphrasing) but I think it's good cause for suggesting, and I probably would have said the same. All intentions are good my friend.

What I was missing in all of this minutia of comments from a lot of people in now 6 pages (though as helpfully intended as that is) was reinforced by Jdurham, who put it out there that "Until someone posts a file with the problem to test, I'll bow out of commenting in this thread for now. " and that while he (nor I) hadn't experienced the automation problem(s), with complex use of it, he was willing to assist.

I'll do the same and stay out for the sake of keeping the channels open as well, and monitor as well.
I also make extensive use of automation, even when Rewiring, and haven't had any issues. But we may be able to help. Just noting.

It might be best for the purpose of resolving the issue, is those with the conundrum to isolate, and whittle away plugins that don't impact the problem, and remove unused tracks as well, thereby freeing up more unnecessary plugins, mixer channels, and remove unused instruments as well. Perform a "save as" with a "test" so that the original song you're diagnosing doesn't get impacted,

Sometimes the best trouble shooter isn't the "me too, it's definately a bug" response but becoming the Mr. Fixit themselves, by isolating, then contributing findings. It also makes the dialogue more purposeful to resolving the issue. I hope that makes sense, and doesn't single anyone out. A "me too" is good, in that it confirms the same or similar condition is elsewhere. But the onus then is to when possible, do the groundwork to whittle away the problem.

Anyway, probably best to forward a repeatable condition so someone like JPettit, who actively gets involved can forward relevant info. Where I've read so far, he's stated exactly that. Find, help, or send in the file, or noted evidence.

Keep shaking the box.
Peace!

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by wdkbeats on Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:57 am
Hi guys,

I've been very busy lately (4 albums to mix, went back to Reaper, can't really use unreliable software for work) and had no time to deal with the issue we're talking about here.

The automation bug remains, I'm experiencing it in almost every mix I made for testing in S1v4 demo. I still think it is iLok software related.

What's even worst, I stumbled across another very annoying bug, this time with VST's. In one of my projects, whenever I select an instrument track (in mixer or arrange view) it gets turned down in volume!!! And the fader is not even moving, just volume drops by ~9dB. Sometimes it works fine, other times it doesn't. I use only legal software, mostly iLok protected stuff.

My demo period will be over soon, I'm not upgrading until all of this gets sorted, so I hope other users will be able to confirm these bugs.

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by sebastianholtzer on Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:05 am
Not only S1 is having this Problem:

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2016/10/4/pro-tools-125-loss-of-automation-data-bug-with-third-party-plug-ins

As far as I can remember, my little Brother had nearly the same Problem in Ableton 2 or 3 years ago, he told me a time ago but he did not had Issues with S1.
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by jdurham on Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:26 pm
HI guys -- I'm back briefly in this thread because there is another thread about automation issues that MIGHT be related to this set of issues in this thread. User lisarowe has been working hard to figure out her automation issue, and I think we're narrowing it down over there. It might be relevant or might at least give some ideas of how to approach it here -- so please go check that thread out -- there are some recipes to test on Page 2 -- viewtopic.php?f=151&t=30455
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by lisarowe on Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:00 pm
jpettit wroteThis is the best we have on this topic:

To summarize:
1) Windows only
2) Power Saving options ALL off
3) Experiment with nVida "threaded optimization" set to off


Hi --
Don't really want to wade into the fray here, but is it worth noting that I also am working with a NVIDIA graphics card? (NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960M)
I think I turned everything off (all the Windows junk that I could find, for sure), but I don't recall seeing a "threaded optimization" setting.
I'll go look.
: )

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by karismolander on Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:39 am
I started this thread, but have had no time to debug this issue lately. I am sure that it still is there. But, I also have a NVidia display card.
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by Jose7822 on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:23 am
I doubt that the issue is related to NVidea graphic cards. I have a GTX1070 and I don’t experience the automation issue described in this thread. The only automation issue that’s been confirmed has to do with VCA faders. Are you guys, the ones experiencing this automation bug, using VCA faders?

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by lisarowe on Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:42 am
Jose7822 wroteAre you guys, the ones experiencing this automation bug, using VCA faders?

Yes and no. I have a bug and VCA fader issue, but if it is related to the issue in this thread, I cannot say because I don't have all the facts and I didn't write the code. (I think you, Jose, chimed in on my other thread.)

I came back to report that my test file (described in the now locked thread) behaves exactly the same as it did before I turned off "threaded optimization."
So, that is maybe not an avenue to explore much further (unless the issues are not related).

Husband (software engineer) gave me a good description of background processing last evening so I understand why it looked like a good possibility.
Sorry.
: )

That being said, if you ever come up with the requested short test for repeat-ability, I would be happy to take some time to do it.

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by wdkbeats on Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:04 pm
Jose7822 wroteI doubt that the issue is related to NVidea graphic cards. I have a GTX1070 and I don’t experience the automation issue described in this thread. The only automation issue that’s been confirmed has to do with VCA faders. Are you guys, the ones experiencing this automation bug, using VCA faders?


I do not use VCA faders and do not have Nvidia graphics card.

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by stevenicel on Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:37 am
santeripilli wroteGuys,

In an ideal situation us, the paying clients, would not be required to go through complex processes to try and fix errors in software code. You are the source of income, who should be allowed to enjoy a well tested software upon the release, composing away happily.

You are, however, not paid salary for beta-testing, to be obliged ("Reproduce the steps or the bug will be unlikely to get fixed") systematically and continuously provide a software developer with needed information to pin-point the faults in development.

This is a major responsibility of the software developer, in this case, PreSonus. My personal opinion is that here the Studio One development is lacking.

Yes. Oh, be helpful, be kind in life and in this forum. But think about your consumer ethics, people. This culture will never change, should you yet and yet again accept a new version with a considerable amount of faults.
- Santeri


Goodness, logical reason in 2018! Rare.. Well here's my 2 cents, and honestly, I could care less how this comes across. I'm sick of trying to frame issues in "nanny speak".

I'm not sure exactly when the developer culture adopted the slogan of "provide customers a percentage of functionality, then assume leniency and latitude later when reality doesn't match promotion". The selling model seems to have turned completely on it's head, and it really needs to have change forced on it. But the majority of people place importance on bling, so not sure how that change is ever going to occur.

The "BUS automation not rendering correctly on STEM creation" is one of MANY flaws I continually struggle with. Often without realising until too many subsequent processes have been applied. It's complete and utter crap and in no way has ANY valid justification for it to still exist. Nor do the myriad of other rendering anomalies which I have encountered and sent support requests for over the past 20 months.

I create and use complex mixing processes to get me where I need to be for both the song, master and archive purposes. The current options for rendering instruments, and have it accurately record all insert/aux and bus routing configurations, is a nightmare. Not to mention the difficulty rendering Studio One's own multi out instruments when they have complex automation and aux effects applied from both the channel strip itself and the bus/busses they're routed through. Constantly feels like trying to do a square dance at a prog-rock concert when the bands playing in 13/16.

Throw into the mix the inaccuracies of Studio One render bugs, and sometimes I just feel like giving up being able to have accurate archived tracks and stems 10-15 years down the road.

I have lost any faith whatsoever in Studio One's audio export/stem render system. And I cannot under any circumstances render more than one track at a time. If I don't check each one, I always discover accuracy problems later on when I realise things just don't sound right. It's just plain flawed and really effects my workflow in a ongoing negative way. Making the archive and pre-master process PAINFUL!

I simply refuse to move to v4 because many of the existing v3 core issues weren't made functional. Presonus just did the coveted "business deception card trick". And for the majority of buying public who just wants more for less, it worked perfectly. Hope the new revenue boost was worth the moral conscience trade-off.

Let's frame some similar analogies perhaps. If you purchased a CPU for your new computer and the product specs state "Intel i7 8700 6 core @3.7GHz speed" and you installed it and discovered that it's really just an "i3 core duo" in the aforementioned shell, what would you expect? Well, according to the logic fostered by this current trend, you should indeed be expected to keep tweaking that i3 duo in a vain attempt to one day make it scream like it's actually an i7 8700. What crap! So we the consumers, who pay the asking price, should proceed attempting to get a silk purse out of a sow's ear!. Really?? Why?

It seems to be so easy for digital product creators to hide behind the "it's impossible to develop for all scenarios" excuse. Well that may be. But simply put, you have to suck that up, and make the product work without issue if you offer that product for that platform. Or don't receive money for it at all.
If you're a developer then it's your job to know the risks for bringing that product to market. If you don't, then you're a bigger idiot than anyone could possibly call you.
You can't have it both ways. And reading the level of feedback and interactions, what I hear is, "you should be thankful we're giving you a DAW for your money at all!".

Reality and commonsense should therefor follow this logic; it's totally acceptable for a paying customer to expect a refund when said products have complete workflow and design functionality flaws. If the product flaw stops customers using it as the tool it was designed to be, to get the job done, then that product has not been delivered at all! The difference is it's easy to hide behind the non-tangible medium of digital.

How about we try some other fantasy commerce examples:
If I went into a store to buy a carpenters claw hammer, would we all be ok getting a kids plastic engineering ball-peen hammer, with no handle? Apparently it's ok expecting consumers to spend extra time, money and resources to turn products into functional and advantageous business tools after paying for the whole product... Interesting.

What if we went to buy a gourmet sandwich at $12.50 and was handed a container with only flour, salt and butter. Then when queried, the store owner replied "well, if you mix it all up a bit, then walk around all day and try to find someone with an oven and perhaps some spare condiments, then go to another store and buy a paper bag, and some mayo, you will have your gourmet sandwich. I don't see your problem customer?".
Is this sounding like a reasonable and LOGICAL supply and demand trade? I don't think so. But it seems so commonplace.

Don't let the "free" help cover the underlying reality. Community spirit is great, but accepting sub-standard product delivery AND massive time expense is not. Despite good intent, often there is personal incentive to perpetuate a belief that the community should fix problems. Whether it's in current benefit or desired future personal benefit, it's all one and the same and makes no difference.

People don't just give because they love to keep giving forever, they expect it will lead to something in return. Philanthropists get reward for their "giving". They know that by giving, the brand will acquire boat-loads of goodwill and consumer 'cred', which in turn massively increases sales potential from the inherent promotion over the long term. That is, of course, after the tax write-off benefit which sees companies losing much less than they already were in the first place. Companies never give above what they can afford to deduct.
Am I saying this because I think it's bad or negative? Nope, not at all. But the point I'm making here is that it's so easy to mince words and influence people for one's own veiled or desired benefit.

So why are people still happy being convinced that consumers should be software troubleshooters and beta-testers? Perhaps part of it is the new culture of crowd-funding (money before product delivery), or part societal entitlement? Whatever the reason, we now live in an age of low social expectation. The default has become: assume no responsibility for our personal or equitable actions. Just none. Sell it and forget is the new business creed.

Come on. Why is it that people become so frustrated on user forums (leaving aside of course low intelligence or reactive aggression)? The savvy know they exist as a way for any business to palm off absent support to those who are prepared to do their work for free. It's not rocket science. But it's also NOT COOL. Especially when people just need things to work as advertised without spending 2 years full of constant, time-wasting workflow workarounds for simple things..

Presonus.... hello. hello.. h--e--ll--o, is any body out t - h - e - r - e .. ere .. ere. Can anybody here me .. me .. me . me? . . ? . .? . . Ground control to major Tom ...

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