Discuss using Dante, Audinate Software and Dante enabled consoles, etc.
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Investigating adding a Dante card to my RM32AI. Configuration would be a Mac Book Pro at FOH and the RM32 as the stage box connected via gigabit Ethernet. Understand I can record on the Mac Book using the Audinate Virtual Soundcard to my choice of DAW's.

My question is how to handle talk back from the FOH in this configuration thru the RM32? How about preshow background music from an iPod? I have a 4 channel USB audio interface. Can the Audinate Virtual Sound patch inputs from the USB interface over Dante to inputs on the RM32 at stage level?

Usually record a 2 track mix of the show from the RM32 to a CD burner at FOH. Can I route channels on the Dante bus through to the outputs on the USB audio interface? If so, then I could connect the CD burner to the outputs and get my 2 track mix that way from the RM32.

If not, then how are others handling talk back, background music, and 2 track recording to CD at FOH in this configuration?

Thanks
Pete
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by roblof on Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:46 am
Since you are on mac I think that Dante-Via might work for you. If I remember correctly on PC there is a limitation when you use asio.

However, with dante you can always use two or more computers for redundancy and other applications.

Jack for osx can be used to route audio between apps.

Behringer Wing, iMac late 2015, Behringer X-Touch, X-Touch ONE, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, x32 with Dante/aes67, x32-rack with Dante/aes67, s16 and sd16 stageboxes, p16 monitor system, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Motör 61, BCR-2000, StudioLive 24, FirePod 10, Apogee Ensemble, Alesis HD24, Studio One Pro v4, Notion 6, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate, Halion 6, Nuendo 10, Ableton Live 8 Suite, Reaper 4, misc Line6 gear/software, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha 02r.....
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by pwashburn on Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:03 am
Thanks. Looked a little bit into Via and I think that would work. But I think I saw somewhere that you can't run Via and the Virtual Sound Card simultaneously on a computer. I'd use the VSC to get Dante channels from the RM32 recorded to a DAW. So if I used Via, I'd lose the ability to record to the DAW at the same time?
User avatar
by Karyn on Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:22 am
The beauty of using a mac in this case is that you're not constrained in the use of audio interfaces like Windows is.

In my setup.....

McBook Pro
Dante VSC running 64x64 @2ms
Waves Tracks Live to record incoming 32 ch stream
Waves Multirack to add FX to selected streams and return to RM
Virtual DJ for playback of audio files, intermission music, etc., routed to RM Digital Return (through Dante)
Talkback mic, plugged into McBook and controlled with Virtual DJ, routed to separate Dante channel for return into RM.

Works VERY well.

Karyn

-------------------------------------------------------
SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante.
Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport,
Sonar Platinum, Studio One.
http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn
Dante Level2 certified.
User avatar
by pwashburn on Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:49 am
That would work except for needing two analog outputs at FOH to connect to the CD burner for the archival copy. I guess I could record the 2 tracks to the DAW and then DropBox that the next day. I do like being able to turn a CD over right after the gig however.
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by Karyn on Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:24 pm
Having recorded your 2track to DAW (along with all other individual channels) you could do a quick burn of those 2 channels direct to CD in less time than it takes to pack your mics away....

Karyn

-------------------------------------------------------
SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante.
Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport,
Sonar Platinum, Studio One.
http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn
Dante Level2 certified.
User avatar
by roblof on Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:10 am
pwashburn wroteThanks. Looked a little bit into Via and I think that would work. But I think I saw somewhere that you can't run Via and the Virtual Sound Card simultaneously on a computer. I'd use the VSC to get Dante channels from the RM32 recorded to a DAW. So if I used Via, I'd lose the ability to record to the DAW at the same time?

On a mac all of the dante channels will be available for your daw with dante-via so no dante-vsc is needed. On a pc it's a different story as there is a channel limitation.

Download a trial of dante-via to verify it with your setup.

Behringer Wing, iMac late 2015, Behringer X-Touch, X-Touch ONE, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, x32 with Dante/aes67, x32-rack with Dante/aes67, s16 and sd16 stageboxes, p16 monitor system, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Motör 61, BCR-2000, StudioLive 24, FirePod 10, Apogee Ensemble, Alesis HD24, Studio One Pro v4, Notion 6, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate, Halion 6, Nuendo 10, Ableton Live 8 Suite, Reaper 4, misc Line6 gear/software, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha 02r.....
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by cristianr.mendezm on Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:49 pm
Hello Karyn,

I would like to know more about your setup. I want to use dante and Waves Multirack and record at the same time. Could you please explain me how are you doing it?

Regards,

Chris
User avatar
by Karyn on Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:11 pm
Certainly. The trick to remember is that Dante Controller doesn't just define single routes for each signal path, but will copy a signal to multiple destinations.

So I have a McMini in the rack and all 32 RM input channels are permanently routed to it where they get recorded using Waves Tracks Live.

If I'm mixing using only the RM (I have a 32AI console as well) then any channels that need Multirack are ALSO sent to my McBook and then returned directly back to the channel for mixing as normal.

If I'm using the console for FOH then all 32 channels are sent to it as well as the McMini. In this case, any channels requiring Multirack are sent to the McBook first and then to the console. So the McBook (running Multirack) is effectively inserted into the digital snake. This gives exactly the same effect as using normal channel inserts.


It should be noted here that it would be just as easy to use a FireWire connection on the RM for recording as the McMini is in the same rack and has FireWire, but using Dante allows me to connect it anywhere in the system, it's not always sat in the rack.

Karyn

-------------------------------------------------------
SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante.
Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport,
Sonar Platinum, Studio One.
http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn
Dante Level2 certified.
User avatar
by Friedhelm on Thu May 25, 2017 2:03 pm
hi karyn,

since a working avb solution seems not to come for rm mixers, i have to think about dante. your setup woud be similat to mine.
my question is: which values of latency do i have to expect in a multirack or s1 plugin configuration compared to a firewire setup?
my hope is a noticeable discount on the dante card for all the suffering
rm customers :P

SL1602
RM16AI
Nowsonic stage router
StudioOne pro2
mac book pro 2009
ipad4
db technologies DVX 10(2x), DVX8(4x)
db technologies S08(2x)

https://www.waves.com/r/bqvxon
User avatar
by Karyn on Fri May 26, 2017 8:46 am
It mostly depends on the power of your computer and it's ability to run the plugins efficiently.

Dante hardware can run down to about 0.2 ms (on a Gigabit LAN), Dante VSC about 4 ms and Dante Via 10 ms.

In reality I set my RM to run at 0.5 ms, my ai speakers are limited at 1 ms (100Mb LAN) and the measured latency reported by Dante controller is usually around the 1.5 to 1.8 ms range.

All of this is way faster than FireWire (normally around 5 ms with low buffer settings for a quality interface), the rest is down to your computer power, plugin choice and how you host the plugins.
Studio One is perfectly capable of hosting any plugins you may need, but being a DAW it contains much "bloatware" that you don't need to simply host plugins. Though you get the ability to simultaneously record everything without have to load up a separate recording solution.
Waves Multirack is specifically designed to be as low latency as possible specifically for this application. There are even low latency versions of some of the popular waves plugs to allow them to be used live.
If you check waves.com they will even tell you how many samples (or ms) latency each plugin will cost...

Karyn

-------------------------------------------------------
SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante.
Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport,
Sonar Platinum, Studio One.
http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn
Dante Level2 certified.
User avatar
by Friedhelm on Fri May 26, 2017 1:42 pm
no additional latecy added by the host itself, except the plugin latency of course? this sounds really interesting!!!
thank you!

btw: waves introduced a dynamic eq plugin with zero latency for 29 dollars
first tests went great...

SL1602
RM16AI
Nowsonic stage router
StudioOne pro2
mac book pro 2009
ipad4
db technologies DVX 10(2x), DVX8(4x)
db technologies S08(2x)

https://www.waves.com/r/bqvxon
User avatar
by Karyn on Fri May 26, 2017 6:27 pm
I've just spent hours (well... a little while) pawing over the docs and web site and I can't find a spec for host latency. Though I don't believe it would be zero it would certainly be very low as Mulitrack doesn't do any signal processing, only routing.

Karyn

-------------------------------------------------------
SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante.
Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport,
Sonar Platinum, Studio One.
http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn
Dante Level2 certified.
User avatar
by Friedhelm on Sun May 28, 2017 9:08 am
every millisecond less latency is a good thing, so dante gets more and more interesting for me, especially when you look at the price of avb approved switches...

please, presonus, giv us a discount on the dante card :+1
any updates when this will happen, ray announced it 2 months ago...

SL1602
RM16AI
Nowsonic stage router
StudioOne pro2
mac book pro 2009
ipad4
db technologies DVX 10(2x), DVX8(4x)
db technologies S08(2x)

https://www.waves.com/r/bqvxon
User avatar
by matthewseymour on Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:33 am
For extra cost, you can go down the road of having a hardware dante PCIe card in the computer. That reduces latency even further. I'm aware of one project building a PC mix engine where they've got the latency from analogue in to analogue out down to 1.7ms. That's with everything going via dante in and out of the PC and all mix engine processing.
User avatar
by tourtelot on Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:38 am
Latency. What a "thing."

I remind people that the latency between the drum stick hitting the head of the snare and the drummer's ears is about 2 mSec. NOT 2 uSec. Two full mSec. Don't get hung up and, whatever you do, don't utter the word "latency" in the studio. You will cost yourself hours.

Doug

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