StudioLive RM32Ai and RM16Ai Mixers & UC Surface with QMix Ai
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This thread is to address the need for some updates to implement features on the RM/AI mixers. As we move closer to implementing these features I'll be updating this thread with more information on availability.

AVB recording
We've hit a roadblock with AVB recording on the AI/RM platform. The AVB solution we use in this platform was essentially inventing new technology for a new chipset. Unfortunately that solution and the support from them is no longer available to us or the other pro audio manufactures that utilized it. We've continued to work on this support without assistance but discovered some issues with the solution's implementation that we've not been able to overcome yet.

With the new Series III we've chosen a new solution that has all the AVB implementation complete. This is a new solution that wasn't available during the development of the RM/AI mixers. We're still working on solutions to get customers who need AVB recording/playback on the RM mixers. There are a few potential options and I'll provide updates here as we make progress towards a solution.

MIDI
As you know, there are two MIDI ports on the back of the RM mixers that have not been implemented yet. Once implemented, these will provide MIDI send/receive commands to the mixer for control of things like preamp levels and scene recalls. NOTE: these ports cannot send/receive MIDI via a computer through the FireWire connection.

Implementation for this is underway and we expect it in a firmware update in 2017. I'll provide more details and info on availability as we get closer to completion.

Smaart
Smaart currently works on a computer running UC Surface and connected via FireWire to the mixer. When we moved to UC Surface we lost the go remote functionality for the Smaart wizards. This functionality is planned to return in an upcoming dot release after UC Surface 2.0. Additionally, we expect to be able to offer remote functionality to run the Smaart RTA and Spectrograph on the iPad when a computer is connected via FireWire, Smaart is running, and UC Surface is in select sync mode. We've seen this working in the lab but there's still work left to get it ready for implementation in the field. I'll provide more details and info on availability as we get closer to completion.

RayT
Sr Product Manager
PreSonus
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by Tonehenge on Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:17 pm
Hi Raymond... It's always good to chat with you. 1st of all, I've never regretted the purchase of my RM32ai. It's sonic performance has been exemplary, and my experience in terms of construction and reliability has been that it's bulletproof.

That said, it is disappointing that features promised at the time of purchase will now not be available. I understand the changing landscape of these very exotic technologies, and that your team is wrestling with changes with companies supplying core technology (in this case AVB). Without trying to put too fine a point on it, those issues should not be transferred entirely to the end user. I made a purchase in good faith, with the expectation that features promised and not yet implemented at time of purchase would be implemented shortly thereafter.

I would like to see a program for those of us impaired by this failure.... I would like to trade my AVB/firewire card for the Dante/firewire card. (I would even consider paying something extra for this, given the onerous licensing charges levelled by Audinate.) Then I could go about my business of capturing audio via CAT5e/CAT6 cable as I had intended when I made the purchase, a purchase that was encouraged by a promise of this implementation. You can make good on this promise by doing this. It's that simple.
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by ricdonzell on Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:51 pm
I would like to see current bugs fixed involving cascaded RM32's.......still no Fx's on the secondary RM. Having 2 RM32's along with a CS18....which conceptually is brilliant....I feel like a step child and ready to move to other manufacturers
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by tourtelot on Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:08 am
I have been saying this for a while now, but why doesn't Presonus get that Dante is the industry leading networked audio solution? Not going away. Over 800 devices now and growing, super stable platform, and some of the largest manufacturers well onboard.

AVB is not the answer, as Presonus has found out.

Please, please, please work on increasing your Dante support. Dante has no issues with hi-res audio over the network. It is becoming a more common request. How about a Dante card that will do 88.2/96K?

Please?

Doug
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by peterkellett on Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:21 am
Hi all, I too think it's a shame that the AVB function still hasn't happened as advertised for the RM mixers, and whilst I don't regret buying my mixer, I do think we the customers have been let down by missing functions that we all expected would happen, and with the release of the series 3 mixer not being able to integrate with any other presonus equipment currently on the market (I.E. not being able to use the RM Series as a stage box) there is a feeling of everything has been pushed to the back of a long queue until the series 3 is ready. Whilst I understand you may have development and staffing issues to not be able to support all products, the fact that we haven't seen a beta for the new version 2.0 UC Surface, which up until the series 3 was announced we had virtually a constant stream of beta software updates, tells me that this is also at the back of the queue.

I'm also still very frustrated that the RTA functions still have not been developed sufficiently to remove them more than the length of a fire wire cable away from the mixer.
This for me is a priority for any future revision and thought we were going to get this with the upcoming version 2.0 of UC surface, sadly it looks from the above that it will be after that.
Sorry if it seems like a rant, it's not meant to be, I just want the gear that I have to have a bit more functionality and be closer to what I expected this to be when I bought my mixer.
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by ekuykendall on Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:32 pm
Ray, thanks for the responses here on these issues. I rarely, RARELY rant online, but...

Not to beat the dead horse further, I too am very disappointed in the AVB hole in the RM32/CS18 package. AVB was the very reason I bought this rig. I waited patiently as the promises turned to silence. Meanwhile, Dante was being handed out like candy to those buying this speaker or that interface. I am yet another here who paid full price for every piece of Presonus gear I purchased (2 x Firestudio Projects, StudioLIve 16, RM232AI, CS18AI, Eris 8, 4 x HD7, PRM-1, Central Station, Faderport 1, 2 x 315AI speaker, 2 x 18s subs, dollies and poles and covers for those speakers, Studio One, Studio One 2 Pro, Studio One 3 Pro, and a myriad of Presonus plugs and add-ons. Not one freebie or heavy discount (not a complaint - just a statement of fact). I even attended 2 PresonuSphere events and schmoozed with the execs there. And I have referenced at least 6 StudioLive board sales as well as a number of Studio One sales to friends because I believe in this company. I continued to patiently wait for the AVB solution to allow me FOH recording over Cat5 with the RM at BOH. But with the shift in focus to new Faderports and Series 3 boards, we now know that will not be coming.

So, as suggested above, to help keep the peace (I'm not giving up on Presonus just yet), I also back the idea of free or even deeply discounted Dante upgrades for those of us that relied on the notion of a usable AVB solution. It's a win-win for all. And even then I will lose out on my current audio to the CS18, which makes me want to scream. I spent a massive chunk of change to get my studio set up with the RM/CS rig to eliminate the cross-studio analog snake cables. Even if I were to accept the cost, replacing this rig with a new Series 3 puts me right back where I was with the SL Classic boards - analog cables running across my studio floor from the mixer. Arghh! Makes me see red!

Look, we all like you guys. Some of us even love you. We want Presonus to succeed. We want to create our music proudly with Presonus products. To do that, we need those products to do what we were sold when we bought them. Anything less and you become the next Behringer selling mediocre crap at discount prices in Guitar Center just to keep the lights on in that gorgeous new HQ you all just built.

________________________________________________________________________
Me: Live/studio drummer/percussionist, recording engineer, live sound, hardcore gear slut
Studio: StudioLive RM32AI, StudioLive CS18AI, FireStudio Project x 2, Central Monitor Station Plus, Faderport, HP-60, Eris-8, PRM-1
PA: SL315AI (tops), SL18sAI (bottoms)
Tools: Studio One Pro, Capture, SL Room Control, UC Surface, QMix-AI
Computer: Mac Mini 2.6GHz 16GB w/256GB SSD, Lacie Thunderbolt 256GB SSD, iPad, iPhone
Network: TP-LINK WR-1043ND, MOTU AVB Switch

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by tourtelot on Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:20 pm
As soon as I can find the proper replacement, I am getting out. Quick obsolescence and products that are intentionally designed to be road-blocked are forms of money-grabbing which seems to be the case at Presonus. Very disappointing. Dollars are king and the customer can go eff himself. Nice business practice.

Oh, and I am sure they don't care if I become a dissatisfied user. Some other dummy will step up to pay. But eventually, the reputation will over-ride the shiny (but worthless) hardware and no one will buy.

D.
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by denisrandrianasolo on Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:05 pm
Hi!
I remember I bought my first Presonus gear back in 2002, it was the first TubePre.
It was my first tube preamp and I used it with my first condenser mic which was the first Rode NT-1.
I was very happy with this purchase, and Presonus was a very promising company to me.
Since then, Presonus has grown up as a big company and their products were really interesting and I grew up myself as an audio engineer and still play gigs as a musician.
I decided to buy an RM16AI because it was that kind of all-in-one solution that fit my needs.
I wanted to mix and record live gigs with a high quality sound and I was tired of bringing out my RME interface and my Motu interface out of the studio to do so.
So I saw that RM16AI on internet that could allow me to mix and record in the studio and also for live gigs without running long cables, and it had a very efficient UI and capabilities.
I bought it and thought that it was worth waiting for the features that was promised but not already implemented (at first, I must say that I found it strange) because I simply trusted Presonus.
AVB recording, MIDI control were great things for me.

But as time went by, I felt like something was going wrong.
I felt like those promises were slightly turning into lies (sorry if it hurts but it's really what I felt and still feel).
The dates of implementation were always pushed later with no other precision.
Meanwhile, we all saw the new SL III that was announced, and I must say that I was disgusted.
How could a company have time to design and release a brand new product from the ground up with the features that was supposed to be on my purchase and for which I was kind enough to wait for that long, and not put them before on my growing old interface in the first place???!!
The consumer don't have to know about the technical reasons why this or that couldn't be done or is difficult to do.
It's like amateur excuses.
And releasing a new product with all the features in our faces before bringing those features to our purchases is more than uncool!

Someone said above that another issue like this could make Presonus the next Behringer (which has by the way become a very good company with high quality products since they acquired Midas),but I think it's going down this way faster than we may think.

Presonus should give a Dante card to all who purchased the RM series for free, period.
I won't pay anything more because recording over network and MIDI control were features listed in the specifications and I won't pay twice for that!
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by johnnyjclark on Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:13 pm
I have also been around for a spell. All the way back to Studio One v1.7 and have owned the gambit of Presonus gear. From the Audiobox USB, to the SudioLive 32.4.2ai. I've owned 3 FireStudios, a Firestudio Moble, Faderport, Monitor Station, 2 Studio Channels, an RC 500, 16.4.2 (Classic), HP 60, all the early 1/3 rack space gear (and connecting kit) and an RM32ai.
What happened was this: Right after got the 16.4.2, it was discontinued. I bought the 32.4.2 and AVB card, Motu switch and a RM32 and waited... Let me add that several weeks after the RM32 purchase, The RML32 came out rendering the just purchased RM32's value much less in the blink of an eye. Today I find out the RC 500 is discontinued. Sold it at a great loss.
I understand you guys are in business. But loyal customers that have been around for more than a decade are getting screwed because of the unforeseen AVB hurdles. If it was my company, I'd make it right for the people injured. I put out an extra $600.00 for the AVB option card, and the Motu AVB switch. Both my SL32.4.2 and RM32 would need Dante cards for me to be able to record over Cat5. at an addition cost of $1200.00. I'm not going to do it.
Ray I pressed you for a status update in the Studiolive Facebook group a couple of months ago for a status update when the release of SLIII was announced with AVB recording capabilities. I said pretty much the same thing as members above as far as you guys channeling all the resources on the new product and leaving us AI guys out to dry. I caught a lot of flak from some of the admins even going as far as deleting valid critical posts. I'm surprised I wasn't banned. God forbid you complain about getting shafted. One jackwagon admin, the guy that started the group even said "If you don't have anything helpful to add move along" I never had a post praising a product or solid update get deleted. I'm persona non grata there now :+1 I've been helping people there for years.
Do the right thing guys. Your company's reputation is on the line here. It's reckoning day no more open ended time frame for this guy.
Happy New Year!
Last edited by johnnyjclark on Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Studio One Pro 2.6
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SL 32.4.2ai (AVB Card)
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by jonas.fagerson on Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:36 pm
Sorry to hear this!!!! Been waiting for AVB and one of the main reasons we decided to go all Presonus with our band. Can't help getting a feeling that you don't prioritize this! Pls give us some details on how plan B looks like!!!
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by denisrandrianasolo on Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:03 am
I think that the main reason why we were redirected here to talk about all these issues is not to be informed of any work in progress, update or whatever.
We were redirected here, so we won't spread our indignation on the facebook user group or other social network and prevent us from soiling the brand Presonus, although our claims are justified.

I feel no one is going to listen to us and I'd like to be wrong but I have a feeling that we can still wait for updated information all the time we want or expect those features to be implemented, but... man! I don't know!
And no one seems to care about those incertainties and that we have to be reassured or told the truth so we can plan the future on our side (keep the gear or save money to buy another solution, etc...)
Their information about their work in progress is more than too vague, and their near future of release has always moved forward as soon as we got closer and closer.
We can't just deal with that.

Never underestimate a group of people that has determination.
(The oak is strong, and the reed may bend but will never break...)
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by bjmccaskil on Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:50 am
What am I missing?

I run my MacBook Pro at back of stage to serve as Capture computer and as a stage accessible backup to the Universal Control computer I run from FOH. I use Screen Sharing to control and monitor Capture and to access the SMAART features. I use Remote Login to copy Capture files to my server. It makes no difference to me where the files are.

Other than saving Capture files to a hard drive at FOH, I don’t get how capturing via AVB to FOH improves anything. I see the value of using AVB to stream directly to Studio One if using S1 at FOH, but I expect those of us would use Dante gear anyway.

I appreciate the candor of Ray’s update and hope that Presonus continues to treat us with respect. And I know I should have kept my mouth shut.

Happy New Year.
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by Soundman-59 on Sat Dec 31, 2016 12:19 pm
Hi Guys.
I agree with all your posts. I'm in the same situation as you :( .
Announcements but not achievements... I still like Presonus but it is disappointing !

Happy new year.

M.
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by timpatenaude on Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:16 pm
I have certainly stated my frustrations on fb and in some of the groups. But I have something to add. I know some are asking for a Dante solution. But here's where I have a feeling that's not a solution for some. To my understanding there is no way to convert the cs18 to Dante... therefor I would lose the ability to have my talkback mic or run my reference mic from the cs18. And god knows what else. So to me.... here's my solution.... either make the AVB features work with my product, or recall them and offer to update them to be able to do so (you can with the new studiolive) or... just give me my money back, every cent, so I can invest in a solution from some one else that gives you the features it says it has.
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by tourtelot on Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:59 am
Is the CS18 NOT Dante capable. Guess they screwed that up too.

Doug
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by wahlerstudios on Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:15 am
timpatenaude wrote ...so I can invest in a solution from some one else that gives you the features it says it has.


The CS18AI can be used as controller for (I think) one RM mixer in a Dante network and is officially Dante approved. The built-in AVB functionality (4 x 2 AVB) gets lost then, indeed. But with Dante you have other options to organize your workflow.

May I remind of the word controller? The CS18AI is NOT a mixer and was NEVER intended to be a mixer. There is a brochure describing in detail, what the CS18AI is supposed to do and as far as I can see (I do not own a CS), the product does exactly, what was promised. Here is the link to the brochure: http://www-media-presonus.netdna-ssl.com/downloads/products/pdf/PreSonus_StudioLive-CS18AI_Info_EN.pdf. The development has taken some time and the CS is probably not really "perfect" yet, but saying that it does not work as promised, is not correct.

Ok, "recording over AVB" for SL old and RM is still or again a no-go, but you don't need AVB, as you have firewire. Place another RM next your CS and get all three machines connected in an AVB network, then you have Capture/Studio One and Smaart available at FOH. Even if AVB recording would be possible today, the CS would not be able to handle it. It simply was not made for this task! The CS is good in its flexibility live/Studio, but it's not the perfect tool for live, nor for Studio. You can live with the compromises - or not.

As far as I can see the CS does, what its brochure says.

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Dock with AudioTools' Smaart RTA & Spectograph extension |
Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Pro 3.5.6
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by lancelyons on Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:52 am
Thank you Ray,

I appreciate the post. I am interested in the AVB options as you move ahead. I have hit roadblocks in design and development, and to say the least for me, they are frustrating and humbling experiences.

I have a CS18ai, RM32ai and MOTU switch - in the live music area, they do a great job. I would not want to go the III route. It does not handle 96k, its preamps have 5db less gain, a snake to the board adds noise and setup complexity.

As I understand it, having other manufacturers products, they have had hurdles - especially in the MS OS area. A few months ago, one of those manufacturers overcame that hurdle by finally getting to a hardware and firmware level where they could test and suggest using an Echo solution on the PC side. im ok with that, instead of a Dante solution. My PC already has a AVB ready Ethernet port, if you have been taking the near hurculean path of handling the AVB stream on the PC side! If you have, wow.

For the RM32ai side, I'm ok with a swap of the comm card, especially if it was low cost, or sending the unit in, in the event a more deeper mod might be required. The point is, I want to see this implementation through. What can I do as an owner to help you help me?

LL

CS18ai, RM32ai+ MOTU AVB switch, MOTU 1248 AVB
DAWs - Sonar Platinum, Studio One
PC - home built
WIN 10
Intel i7- 6700K
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by philmoakes on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:35 pm
Whilst I don't 'need' full AVB, I, like many others, have planned for it so I can dispense with multicore from stage box to RM and RM to monitors. The system as it is works fine, but I want a more slimline approach building on the capability that was described for the future.

The Plan B option(s), even it/they cost a bit, is/are needed soon so I can get the most out of what I've got (RM32 & CS18). I know there are workarounds for just about every issue, but that's not what I bought the kit for.

So, not moaning because I love my Presonus kit ... but I really do want it to be fully capable. Soon (ish).

Phil

CS18, RM32, RM32, HP4, ERIS 5, MOTU AVB SWITCH
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by denisrandrianasolo on Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:14 pm
"... I want a more slimline approach building on the capability that was described for the future..."
Ok Phil, so when you want something that was described for the future, your claim is valuable,
but when others legitimately do the same you call it moaning?
AVB and MIDI implementation were written in the manual to be brought in a near future, so it's not because you don't need it that it makes your claims valuable and others look like moaning.
You're talking to grown men that make music for their living...
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by basmeijer on Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:41 pm
stingray1122 wroteAVB recording
We've hit a roadblock with AVB recording on the AI/RM platform. The AVB solution we use in this platform was essentially inventing new technology for a new chipset. Unfortunately that solution and the support from them is no longer available to us or the other pro audio manufactures that utilized it. We've continued to work on this support without assistance but discovered some issues with the solution's implementation that we've not been able to overcome yet.

With the new Series III we've chosen a new solution that has all the AVB implementation complete. This is a new solution that wasn't available during the development of the RM/AI mixers. We're still working on solutions to get customers who need AVB recording/playback on the RM mixers. There are a few potential options and I'll provide updates here as we make progress towards a solution.

What a pity to hear! Wow, there you go with the "open industry standard" was my first thought. And "them" as a non-cooperative bunch of nasty people. But reading a bit further, you explain that the StudioLive III series have another chipset on board that opens all ways to use AVB.
Then other grey cells kick in and wonder about the existence and contents of contracts with the chipset manufacturer. And other cells, to be specific, on my right foot, that itch and long for a serious chipset-manufacturer-buttkick!

Of course I would have wished to be able to record through AVB, because recording at FOH and other stuff like finally adding a whole arsenal of first class plugin FX would suddenly be possible... I feel myself slightly questioning what to do next...... I really was looking forward to the plugin-adding route, way MUCH MORE than recording over AVB. Actually, I hardly give a monkey about that, because I can just remotely control the recording computer on stage that records through FW800 using UC Surface or the CS18.

But the possibility of the FX plugins at FOH I need to have. There is a strong longing to do all the stuff with FX again that I did with older setups, stuff that the current RM is simply not capable in doing so. I presume this goes hand in hand with the recording possibility, thinking of ASIO and CoreAudio access to the audio through the AVB layer.

I am, among others that did post here with the same question, very interested to hear about the option(s) to have AVB recording/access through the DAW host (Macbook with AVB ready ethernet port). I am also interested to know which OS I need to run to have this, as I am still happily running OS X 10.9.

An alternative, that is hardware based and that I am already considering, is to buy an extra RM like a RML16 to use at FOH. A route that wahlerstudios already suggested. Then I have everything what I need, but at the expense of another unit and more equipment to carry and to setup. I currently do not need any 19" stuff at FOH so the rig would be less compact and would need more space. In some clubs space is really an issue.

A very tempting offer of a RML16 would influence the course...

"A complete ecosystem of AVB solutions, including stageboxes and personal monitor mixers, will be available in 2017."
(As copied from the product page of the StudioLive III)

I was wondering if this would include a hardware based solution......
Carry on, guys! :thumbup:

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