StudioLive RM32Ai and RM16Ai Mixers & UC Surface with QMix Ai
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I now have 2 RM16AI's

My question is, can I use one like a stage snake and run a Cat5 cable to the router at FOH (which the other FOH RM16 is connected) and then use the AUX outs at the FOH RM16 for IEM's?

I guess I'm asking if I can mirror them.....or will they be cascaded?

Which is fine, I guess because I'll be controlling it anyway....(Master/Slave)

Which one will I use for the Main/Mono OUT?
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by robertbrady on Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:02 am
After further research, I have since purchased the MOTU AVB Switch, and some Cat 5e cables (25ft / 75ft)

CONFIGURATION QUESTION based on my setup below??

Will the RM's be mirrored??

I'll be setting up my table usually to the left or right side of the stage (as a monitor engineer setup), have #1 RM16 placed as the stage box, then network cable to my other #2 RM16 via the MOTU AVB switch, and my wireless router will come off the AVB switch for my roaming pad.

#1 RM Stagebox will have all inputs plugged into it, and some AUX outs for stage monitors, as well as FOH mains. Sub amp located at Monitor table (I don't always use subs for every gig when 4 EV ELX115P kick bleep)

Laptop will be hardwired at the monitor table via FireWire or network cable

I went thru the PDF file and I don't see this configuration......and I am wanting to make the RM's identical, so what I see coming into Channel 1 of #1 RM16 (stagebox) will be seen on my laptop as channel 1 (which is connected to #2 RM at Monitor Table)
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by robertbrady on Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:35 pm
No one can answer? LOL - Gonna make me jump thru hoops trying figure this out?

Just asking for help (after I've gone thru the RM documentation (PDF's), searched the forum (even used Google to search this forum). https://www.google.com/search?newwindow ... esonus.com

I'm not asking too much am I?
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by drums.michael on Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:06 pm
Would love to hwlp but have only 1 RM myself so I can't contribute...
Sorry and best of luck

RM32AI
- MacBook Pro Retina i7 8gb
- 2U self built computer running MacOSX Mavericks (courtesy of tonymacx86.com) and Hannspree/Hanns-G Touchscreen (HT231HPG)

internals:
CPU: i7 4790K @4.0Ghz
RAM: 16GB 1866 DDR3
OS disk 128gb Samsung 840 SSD
storage: 2 2TB Seagate HDD 7200 rpm (2tb running RAID for speed plus 2x 1tb storage partitions)
Chenbro RM24100 Rackcase
CPU Cooler (due to height restrictions) Thermalright AXP-200 Muscle with offset Fan

UC Surface on Mac and iPad
Processing via Waves MultiRack & LiveProfessor2

My Homepage (still being built...)
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by robertbrady on Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:45 pm
Was just wondering because I've gotten fast responses to all my other posts.

7 months in and I'm still learning about these boxes :)
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by wahlerstudios on Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:04 pm
They will be cascaded (Master/Slave) and the slave represents the Aux of the Master. Maybe this helps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5BiINY0eoM (StudioLive RM Cascading Setup by Ray Tantzen).

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Dock with AudioTools' Smaart RTA & Spectograph extension |
Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by robertbrady on Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:03 pm
Its not possible to just mirror them?
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:10 pm
No, as it is now. With two RMs combined via AVB the inputs channels are cascaded, the auxes are merged. I forgot to use the word "merged" yesterday. You get 64 input channels (in your case 32 analog and 32 digital) with inputs 1-16 on the Master and inputs 17-32 on the Slave. The eight auxes und the mains (stereo, mono) of the Master RM are reflected on the Slave RM. There are eight more (digital) auxes, but they are not available as physcial outputs.

The RMs have no stagebox option yet, although this works perfect when using any RM in stagebox mode with a SL console. But "stagebox" does not really describe what the RMs do in such a combination. All the processing (!) is done on the RM, so the SL works like a controller and not any more like a mixer. I hope PreSonus lets us soon use all the potential of the RM mixers. The wait is getting too long!

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Dock with AudioTools' Smaart RTA & Spectograph extension |
Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by robertbrady on Sat Jul 23, 2016 2:15 pm
Hmmm, sounds like I rather just use my normal stage snake for now....hate to chase channels 17-32 down.....

I have a bigger than normal gig tonight with Curtis Grimes, but just running FOH. They'll have their own MON Tech

I'll stick with my standard setup tonight, setting up off to the side, and they're running a snake to me.
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by wahlerstudios on Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:12 pm
I have to correct what I said about the processing: If a RM is connected to an SL in stagebox mode, the sound processing is done in SL, not RM. Just the RM preamps are used to convert all analog input signals to digital/network signals and to control their gains. This is how the preamps have become "remote controllable" by SL or UC Surface. PreSonus said that the RM's processing is bypassed, but there is some more processing going on in the RM. The main bus is fully working! This allows you to create an additonal stereo mix on the RM. But as all physical outputs on the RM represent SL's output signals, the RM's mains faders in UC Surface do (and should) not work. This mix is found at the phones out. Just press the "Main" button - there it is! The volume knob allows you to control the volume of this additional mix.

This nice feature has become my back-up strategy. If my SL or the AVB network would suddenly fail, the RM would still be running. As a permanent setting I use an active line mixer to sum mains of RM/SL and the RM's headphone mix. This works perfect, so I don't need to carry another mixer with me. The RM "stagebox" is my emergency mixer… ;-)

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Dock with AudioTools' Smaart RTA & Spectograph extension |
Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by robertbrady on Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:54 pm
I am slightly confused. I am not using an SL.

I am considering using an RM as a stagebox, and an RM at my desk, connecting thru Cat 5 at the MOTU AVB Switch. (I haven't actually had a chance to hook it all up yet-its been a busy week / 3 shows in a 24 hour period)

I need the RM at my desk so I can connect via Firewire to the Desk RM for UC Surface, streaming music, and to later record with Capture.

My wireless router will also connect to the AVB (network port) so I can have control with my wandering notepad.
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by wahlerstudios on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:02 am
Yes, sorry… I understand your question and have answered it, but at the moment a combination of two RMs only increases the number of input channels, nothing else. Therefore a combination of RM and SL is much more flexible. I just wanted to correct what I said about the processing (where it happens) when RM is working in "stagebox mode". When cascading two RMs together there is no "stagebox mode", so the old multicore is your friend or buy 16 splitters, which will allow you to use your RM on stage fully as monitor mixer. This would expand the number of auxes to 16. I have kept my multicores only for the case when I use a RM at FOH and need RTA/Smaart, recording and aux returns. I am also hoping for a "stagebox mode" coming to the RM family! And "flexible routing" would also be a dream…!

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Dock with AudioTools' Smaart RTA & Spectograph extension |
Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by wahlerstudios on Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:22 am
When you cascade your RMs, this is what you get (I cascaded RM32AI and RM16AI, which show up as one mixer in UC Surface):

RM32AI as Master: Input channels 1-48 analog, 49-64 digital
RM16AI as Master: Input channels 1-16 analog, 17-32 digital, 33-64 analog

Mix outputs are merged, so you will always find aux 1-16 on RM32AI and aux 1-8 on RM16AI as physical outputs and mains and mono outputs are also identical on both mixers.

I suppose two RM16AI will show up in UC Surface as 1-16 analog, 17-32 digital (Master), 33-47 analog and 48-64 digital (Slave), which probably makes mixing difficult. But in this case using DCA filters helps to organize the mix. Aux 9-16 will also be seen in UC Surface, but as there are no physical outputs available, there is no use having/seeing them.

Firewire is fully working only on the Master RM. Firewire on the Slave RM show the "local" inputs in the way they are numbered in the network. In my setting the RM16AI as the slave mixer starts with channel 33 as first input channel. If you have both RMs connected through AVB, you see them both as riders in UC Surface, but they remain individual and un-connected mixers.

At the moment the only reason to cascade RMs - besides expanding input/recording/playback channels up to 64 - could be to send mix outputs "somewhere" (across the stage, into another room…) by network cable. Some kind of "stagebox mode" or "I/O-mode" for inputs and outputs would really be more helpful for live situations. Just a little bit more flexibility would be a dream for RM owners…

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Dock with AudioTools' Smaart RTA & Spectograph extension |
Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by robertbrady on Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:10 am
And I don't think it would really take much programming to offer a Mirrored (FOH / Stagebox) mode. My 50' stage snake works for now, but.......

Having the AUX & Mains outs mirrored are fine, but having to traverse across a large amount of real estate on UC to get to the other 16 channels WILL BE a PAIN!

And, if I'm not mistaken, your statement "If you have both RMs connected through AVB, you see them both as riders in UC Surface, but they remain individual and un-connected mixers." actually makes my job harder because I would have to log into both mixers, and bounce between the tabs, correct? They wouldn't be cascaded??

I'm gonna have to get this hooked up soon, maybe this evening I'll do that........
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by wahlerstudios on Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:08 am
Well, it is confusing - you have to check things yourself. The way connecting is done is like this:

When everything is wired propperly, start the router first and let it boot completely. The router will handle the IP adresses. At the same time start your AVB switch (takes less time). When the router is fully running, start your RMs in any order. Wait until the red lights are on, then open UC Surface on iPad or computer. In UC Surface you will see your two mixers as riders (up left). As you are using two of the same kind you probably now can't say at first sight which one is which one…

AND HERE IS THE LITTLE SECRET: By clicking on the riders you decide, which of your mixers will be the "master". Click on that rider, go to settings / network (up right). There you see both mixers on your network (works also without seing them). Click on the line below ("Cascade mixer with") to select the "slave". It takes 7 seconds to establish the connection. In UC Surface (mixing level) you will see your two mixers as one.

You can easily and at any time change master and slave. Simply unconnect them, select the other rider and establish the connection based on this new setting.

When your mixers are NOT connected together, they work totally independend, but you have access through your riders in UC Surface. This is so difficult to explain and to understand, as this kind of connection / network is also based on AVB. You simply have to take time to explore all the settings and possibilties.

I totally agree with you that it would not take too much programming to fully awake the potential of the RMs. But PreSonus has to consider the integration of the SL family, the CS controller and Studio One, so they always have a very long way to go. "Active Integration" is a phantastic goal, but it takes a lot of time...

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Dock with AudioTools' Smaart RTA & Spectograph extension |
Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:16 am
There is a digital split somewhere… ;-) By chance I discovered a very interesting feature of the RMs. I was testing RM16AI as master with firewire/computer and RM32AI as slave. In UC Surface (iPad) you see the 64 input channels as 1-16 analog/17-32 digital (RM16AI) and 33-64 analog (RM32AI). I had a CD playing and put "left" into RM16AI channel 1 and "right" into RM32AI channel 17. I knew that this would become digital input 17 on my RM16AI (switch channel input from firewire to network)- BUT…

Suddenly I saw something happening on far away channel 49 (of 64), which logically is physical input 17 on my RM32AI. The signals are identical, I see/hear two times the "right" output of my CD player, so signals obviously are "split". Of course this is a very special and/or untypical setting of mixers, but the setting shows that the splitting of signals inside the RMs is possible and is already happening! To make the picture even more clear: If I put "right" on RM32AI channel 2, it appears in UC Surface on channel 2 as network signal. At the same time it shows up on channel 34 as analog signal (which is channel 2 on RM32AI).

I already knew that I can use inputs 1-16 of both RMs and switch between them. If I would use two CD players (one on each RM) on channels 1 and 2, I can decide in UC Surface which one is heard by changing the channels input type from analog (RM16AI master) to network (RM32AI slave). This means I can chose what input I take from which RM. Actually this is exactly the way it works with "stagebox mode", when a RM is connected to a SL in this mode. You decide for any individual channel to take the input from the "stagebox" or locally from the board...

A "stagebox mode" for the RMs would indeed be very helpful.

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Dock with AudioTools' Smaart RTA & Spectograph extension |
Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Jul 30, 2016 2:18 pm
This is really funny. The more I look into it, the more I discover… I am testing a configuration RM32AI (slave) and RM16AI (master), which probably shows more channels than two RM16AI. I am using a MOTU AVB switch and an Apple router.

NEW for today is: It is indeed possible to use one of your RMs as stagebox. You only need to decide on Master RM what the "input source" per channel shall be. Select "Network" and there you go!

Not quite. You see "PreAmp" (gain) control in UC Surface, but it does not work. I don't find a way to change input gains on Slave RM (stagebox). So by switching the source of the inputs from analog to network, you have to be aware that you loose gain control.

There is a workaround: De-cascade the mixers, select the "stagebox" RM, adjust the gains there (as far as you can imagine how settings should be), then cascade the mixers again. Hopefully the gains now fit better.

And another curiosity: When you open UC Surface on the computer connected by firewire to the Master RM, it shows 32 input channels. At the same time UC Surface on an iPad shows 64 input channels. It needs a trick to get your computer's UC Surface show all the channels: Quit UC Surface, lock your computer into the WLAN you use for remote control, start UC Surface again and there they are: 64 channels…

Recording from Master RM is also possible: 68 (64+2+2) tracks through firewire. Smaart/RTA is fully available on Master RM. I have no idea why the computer needs to be locked into WLAN additionally to the firewire connection, but as it works this way it's probably ok.

Outputs are "mirrored" on both RMs. If one of your RM16AI serves as stagebox you have access to mains L/R + mono and 8 auxes. A RM32AI offers 16 auxes as physical outputs. All outputs on both RMs can be used simultaneously. If you like to use some studio monitors at FOH to control mains, feel free…

I hope I have understood now how this beast works. It seems to be misleading to talk about FOH and "stagebox". Two RMs are network devices and have to be handled like this. But no gain control on the Slave RM is a "no go"!

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Dock with AudioTools' Smaart RTA & Spectograph extension |
Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by wahlerstudios on Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:01 am
Found the gains of the slave RM (should work with any configuration of RMs). Follow these steps after cascading your RMs:

CD/MP3 player on channel 1+2 of slave RM
Change inputs 1+2 of master RM to network input
Adjust gains on channel 33+34 (but leave faders down)
Do the sound processing on channels 1+2

That's it.

You have to keep in mind that channels 1-32 always represent master RM, channels 33-64 always slave RM. When you want to use slave RM as stagebox, you have to use its signals as network inputs. As both mixers are "put in a row", signals are kind of duplicated (split). This lets you use the master RM (channels 1-32) for PA mix and slave RM (channels 33-64) for up to 16 aux mixes, whichs means you can have independent sound processing for PA and auxes.

The other way of cascading RMs is using all available inputs. This way you can handle 1-64 individual input channels in UC Surface, physically devided 1-32 on master RM and 33-64 on slave RM.

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Dock with AudioTools' Smaart RTA & Spectograph extension |
Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by robertbrady on Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:12 am
Whoa! You've been busy LOL - You're time and research are very much appreciated.

I have the week open, so after work, I'm gonna setup the RM's and go over your notes.
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by robertbrady on Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:27 am
Did a setup last night just connecting the two RM16's together thru the AVB Switch. Didn't input any signals yet.

What I saw on my laptop was the 1st RM's channels (Analog 1-16 / Digital 17-32) then the 2nd RM's channels as (Analog 33-49 / Digital 50-66) with Master / Slave config.....

But the first time I did it (before I did a firmware update to the newest version) I saw 1st RM as (Analog 1-16, Digital 17-32), then the 2nd RM as the same across the display (Analog 1-16, Digital 17-32).

I still wish they would design UC Surface it to show all the analog channels together, then all the digital channels together, and/or the option to hide the digital channels.

That would be so much more preferable...

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