Studiolive 32Ai, 24Ai and 16Ai Consoles with Universal Control Ai, SL Remote Ai, and QMix Ai
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It appears the "Post EQ&Dyn" button is not working on StudioLive 32.4.2. I have tried firmware version 1.0.9194, and I also tried downgrading to version 1.0.8596. I am recording in Cubase, but no matter what I do to the Fat Channel, I get untouched audio in Cubase. Is everyone having this issue, or is it just me? Everything I can find said the problem was fixed a long time ago.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.
-Brian
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by wahlerstudios on Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:20 pm
Sometimes firmware upgrades do not change settings completely, so in your case a factory reset might make sense. This should wake the function up (unless there is a problem with Cubase and/or firewire settings). The picture could also get clearer by checking if Capture follows the button or not. Maybe that's worth trying first.

Remember to turn all EQs (fat channels) off when playing back the tracks by firewire.

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 3* 16M | SW5E

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by roblof on Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:51 am
I don't know about later updates but on the original firmware this option was disabled and scheduled for later.

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by SwitchBack on Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:00 am
Strange. For the classic XX.4.2 mixers it works like this:

Per channel the Post EQ&Dyn and Digital Input buttons together give 4 input routing options:
1. off/off = mic/line to digital send, and mic/line to FAT to fader,
2. off/on = mic/line to digital send, and digital return to FAT to fader,
3. on/off = mic/line to FAT to digital send, and mic/line to FAT to fader,
4. on/on = mic/line to FAT to digital send, and digital return to fader,
with 'FAT' being the channel's EQ and dynamics section.

On the XX.4.2AI mixers it should work the same at least for firewire I/O.
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by wahlerstudios on Mon Sep 26, 2016 5:05 am
Correct, it has been an issue at the beginning, but this article from the knowledge base says the problem was solved with firmware version 1.0.5124.

http://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/articles/210048133-Why-do-the-AI-mixers-no-longer-have-the-Post-EQ-Dyn-button-functionality-RESOLVED-

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 3* 16M | SW5E

Apple routers | iPads | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 5.0.0 & Pro 3.5.6
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by briantierney on Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:14 pm
wahlerstudios wrote...The picture could also get clearer by checking if Capture follows the button or not. Maybe that's worth trying first..

Thanks all for the responses. I did a little further testing today using Capture 2, and it was a little easier to see what was going on.

SwitchBack wrotePer channel the Post EQ&Dyn and Digital Input buttons together give 4 input routing options:
1. off/off = mic/line to digital send, and mic/line to FAT to fader,
2. off/on = mic/line to digital send, and digital return to FAT to fader,
3. on/off = mic/line to FAT to digital send, and mic/line to FAT to fader,
4. on/on = mic/line to FAT to digital send, and digital return to fader,
with 'FAT' being the channel's EQ and dynamics section.


I didn't have much time to test today, but I did notice that turning off the digital return made the FAT channel start working before the digital send. So, what I think I am seeing is:

1. off/off = Mic --> Digital send (No Digital Return) && Mic --> FAT --> fader
2. off/on = Mic --> Digital send --> Digital Return --> FAT --> fader
3. on/off = Mic --> FAT --> Digital Send (No Digital Return) && Mic --> FAT --> fader,
4. on/on = Mic --> Digital send --> Digital Return --> FAT --> fader

In other words, 2 and 4 are the same. If the digital return is on it doesn't matter how the "Post EQ" button is set. There is no way to do Mic --> FAT --> Digital send --> Digital Return --> fader. That is the only configuration I actually need. I'll confirm tomorrow. If anyone else can check too, that would be great.

Thank you.

-Brian
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by wahlerstudios on Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:35 am
Please keep in mind that the SL boards handle sends (recording) and returns (play back) independently. The button "Post EQ&Dyn" activates or deactivates the Fat Channel of input channels in a recording situation, but has no function when you play back your files into the board's channels. To listen to your tracks you have to press the "digital button", which also serves network purposes. This button only has to do with SELECTING the "type" of your input channels (analog, firewire, network). In this mode Fat Channels are handled manually, so a situation can easily occur that you record WITH Fat Channel and play back WITH Fat Channel. What you hear then is probably not what you want to get... :roll:

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 3* 16M | SW5E

Apple routers | iPads | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 5.0.0 & Pro 3.5.6
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by briantierney on Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:13 am
I thought it worked that way, too, but apparently it doesn't. I can change if the FAT channel is applied to digital sends (irrespective of returns) by pressing the digital return button. That shouldn't happen.
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by sjc193 on Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:23 am
Hmmm, that's weird. I wonder if it has anything to do with the insert point of the digital return or something like that. Or it just doesn't work right, you'll have to test it thoroughly, I'd be surprised if example 2 and 4 really work the same but could be a bug, we've seen them before.

Have you tried sending out one channel with DIGOUT engaged and then returning on a different channel from the digital return? This could be a workaround if need be. . . plus gives you another FAT after the return on the second channel (but of course uses up 2 channels)

Steve

StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram
ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router
IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260
2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's
2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers
4 EV ZLX-12P's, 1 TurboSound iX15, 2 Yamaha S115V's
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10 58/57 mics, 1 SM86, 1 sE8, 1 sE2200, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021
1 beta52 kick mic, 2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's, 1 PRO48 DI
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by SwitchBack on Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:20 am
At least with the classic SL mixers it works as I described it above: The Post EQ& Dynamics button moves both the digital send and the digital return to post FAT, no matter if the digital input button is engaged or not. If the return wouldn't move then Capture could be recording post FAT and returning pre FAT, which would result in a horrible feedback scenario.

I know they had some issues with Post EQ&Dyn in the early AI firmware versions. Apparently it's still not fixed.
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by wahlerstudios on Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:38 pm
"There is no way to do Mic --> FAT --> Digital send --> Digital Return --> fader."

If I understand it right, your goal is to record and listen/mix at the same time. Unfortunately the SL boards are not designed to work like this. Have a look at "StudioLive AI-Series Software Reference Manual" chapter 2.5 and especially 2.5.3, where it says under Power User Tip: "When a digital return is engaged, it replaces the analog input in the mix."

Here is the link to the document (watch out, big file!): http://www-media-presonus.netdna-ssl.com/downloads/products/pdf/StudioLiveAISoftware_ReferenceManual-EN-V5_09032016.pdf

Recording and listening obviously are two different things. You can record with and without processing (Fat Channel) to your computer, but listening has to happen through your boards outputs (Main l/r, Control Room, Headphones). You need the digital returns only for listening to the recorded tracks and by switching to digital sources you deactivate the analog inputs in order to prevent feedback, as SwitchBack remarked.

A workaround is to use two channels on your board (this is what Steve meant): Record channel 1 to track 1, route it to track 2 in your DAW and press the digital button (return) on channel 2 on your board. This allows you to record and mix/hear simultaneously.

Hopefully this makes the picture clearer. I suppose your SL works as it should, but you want or need a different workflow than it offers by design.

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 3* 16M | SW5E

Apple routers | iPads | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 5.0.0 & Pro 3.5.6
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by briantierney on Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:22 pm
I tested it thoroughly today, and came up with the following:

Digital Return , Pre/Post

off, off = Mic --> Digital Send || AND || Mic --> FAT Channel --> Fader
on, off = Mic --> Digital Send --> Digital Return --> FAT Channel --> Fader
off, on = Mic --> FAT Channel --> Digital Send || AND || Mic --> FAT Channel --> Fader
on, on = Mic --> Digital Send --> Digital Return --> FAT Channel --> Fader

So, I think there is something wrong. I understand what you are saying about recording and mixing at the same time. That is not what I'm trying to do, though. I understand the digital return is what is in the mix. I just want to record the FAT channel and have digital return on at the same time. Apparently the older non AI versions did this properly. Again, if the digital return is active the Post EQ/Dyn button does nothing.

Thanks.

-Brian
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by Karyn on Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:58 pm
There is no bug or fault, it's a basic design concept issue.

Most "pro" level digital mixers use a routing matrix for all the inputs/outputs. Essentially you get to decide which physical input gets connected to which channel, and where in the channel it is connected. Whereas the StudioLive mixers follow the analogue model of fixed routing.

This is great for simplicity and makes them very easy for non-experts to learn to use quickly. Most people with just a limited understanding of sound engineering can work an SL console. But it's not so good for more advanced functions that rely on being able to control signal routing more precisely. The classic consoles only had FireWire for their digital out/in. The Pre/Post button in this case simply moves the out/in point from before to after the FAT section. This is just what you need if you're using it for recording in a studio, i.e., you record the results of the FAT channel and also return the signal back to the same channel (after the FAT) to monitor it.

But when using in a live situation it makes no sense to record the FAT channel. The eq you apply will only be valid in that particular room/hall on that stage with that audience, etc,. For recording live you send the dry mic signal direct to the computer for eq/processing later and concentrate on the live mix.

And then there's AVB and Dante to think about... with the introduction of Stagebox mode to the RM series using AVB an additional digital output had to be added to each channel, while still allowing recording with FireWire. This is where it starts to get complicated by fixing the routing and not using a routing matrix.

on, on = Mic --> Digital Send --> Digital Return --> FAT Channel --> Fader

This is the designed behaviour, but as shown is not accurate because there are actually 2 digital sends/returns. FireWire and Network. (network being either AVB or Dante, depending on which card you have installed). In order for AVB Stagebox mode to work correctly, and for any other situation requiring Network inputs, AND for FireWire recording to work as expected, it is necessary for the pre/post button to be fixed at Pre.
Also, the order of the Network/FireWire send points have to switch around depending on what has been selected as input in order to ensure signals are always sent to all outputs....

Unfortunately, because of the "fixed" routing there are combinations that are not possible just by pressing buttons and the "must have" options have to take priority over the "wouldn't it be nice" options.

Karyn

-------------------------------------------------------
SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante.
Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport,
Sonar Platinum, Studio One.
http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn
Dante Level2 certified.
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by briantierney on Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:52 am
It sounds like I bought the wrong board, then. I certainly didn't see any reference to what you are saying in the printed documentation. I guess the AI version should just be called the Live instead of the StudioLive as they removed a required studio feature to make possible live features. I already have an X32 for live mixing. I bought this board specifically for studio use. At this point I don't think it is very well suited for studio use.

-Brian
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by SwitchBack on Wed Sep 28, 2016 9:52 am
Karyn wroteThere is no bug or fault, it's a basic design concept issue.
...
Unfortunately, because of the "fixed" routing there are combinations that are not possible just by pressing buttons and the "must have" options have to take priority over the "wouldn't it be nice" options.
Of course it can be a design decision, but it also looks like an unnecessary limitation of routing options compared to the classic mixers.
As long as the Post EQ&Dyn button moves all the channel's sends and returns from pre FAT to post FAT I can't think of any routing conflict resulting from that. Both the firewire send and the network send will either be pre-FAT or post-FAT (up to the user) and so will be the returns. And then the user can choose the signal to continue with on that channel: the firewire return, or the network return, or the mic/line signal. Keeps all options open, right?
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by Karyn on Thu Sep 29, 2016 7:44 am
I agree with everything you're saying, there should be more options... On the RM it should be easy, it's just a new routing screen with point and click selection, but the consoles are limited by the hardware which was designed when there was only one digital input/output per channel to worry about.

Karyn

-------------------------------------------------------
SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante.
Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport,
Sonar Platinum, Studio One.
http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn
Dante Level2 certified.
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by SwitchBack on Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:19 am
On the inside the SL RMs and AIs are not that different. It's all bits and bytes between the A/D and D/A converters. So as long as there's a button PreSonus can make it do anything they like (including nothing). ;)
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by Karyn on Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:30 am
Yep, and the problem is there is only ONE button.... and however you program it there will be someone who complains it doesn't work the way that they want... ;)

Karyn

-------------------------------------------------------
SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante.
Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport,
Sonar Platinum, Studio One.
http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn
Dante Level2 certified.
User avatar
by SwitchBack on Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:44 am
There always was only one button, also on the classic SLs, and it worked just fine. It is not a hardware problem it really isn't. It's just how they programmed it on the AIs. :|
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by sjc193 on Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:52 am
It's looking like a bug to me, although I don't have a console AI mixer so I can't confirm it. It is possible that with the addition of Daunte and AVB there is some kind of reason that it's not behaving like the classic consoles, but I'm guessing it's just a bug. No one has really ever noticed it because typically you want to send the raw signal to the DAW for processing, then bring it back into the board and you still have the FAT channel if you need it after the DAW processing, that's how most of us would work and that does work, the OP is just trying to send to the DAW post FAT for some reason or another.

To the OP, the best bet is to start a support ticket so that the support guys can try to replicated it and let the engineers know about it if they agree there is a problem. Then you wait, but at least you know it's logged in the system.

Steve

StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram
ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router
IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260
2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's
2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers
4 EV ZLX-12P's, 1 TurboSound iX15, 2 Yamaha S115V's
1 Crest Pro-Lite 7.5 (7500 watts) amp, 2 Behringer EP4000 amps
10 58/57 mics, 1 SM86, 1 sE8, 1 sE2200, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021
1 beta52 kick mic, 2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's, 1 PRO48 DI
2 4Bar lights, 1 4Play, 1 6Spot, 1 fog machine

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