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wahlerstudios wroteAs a user of PreSonus hardware you have access to a Lexicon "teaser" reverb, which is quite usable.

Would I still have to use that in Studio One passing thru to the Studiolive? It cannot be loaded in the Studiolive firmware on the board?

wahlerstudios wroteAnd one more thing, which is easily forgotten: No reverb and delay sounds "good" without equalization. Add 2 dB at 5 kHz on the send and on the return and listen. Suddenly everything starts shining... ;-)

I do EQ on the Studiolive now on the FX channel master, but not coming back to the mix. I will try that too. But you are correct, it does help a lot. I also use hi pass filter on my reverb channels to only be adding reverb to frequencies I am wanting.

Do you run EQ before or after Reverb? I am sure there are pros and cons to each

wahlerstudios wroteYes, there could and should be some improvements for the available reverbs, but they do NOT sound "bad". They just need a little more "treble" and "pan".

Agreed, I do have a pretty decent reverb dialed in using one of the Firmware SL 32 reverbs. Its just that I find the stock Presonus reverbs in Studio One to be much easier to tailor and tweak.

Live Mixer: StudioLive 32 Series iii

DAW: Studio One v4.5

Computer: Win 10 Pro (1903 Build 18363.418) - x64 / CPU - AMD Ryzen 5 3600x 3.8-4.4GHz / Mobo - Asus Prime X570-P / Graphics - Gigabit AMD Radeon RX 470 4gb GDDR5 / RAM - 16gb Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz / SSD - Samsung 860 EVO 500gb
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Oct 19, 2019 11:10 am
The "Studio Magic Plug-In Suite" is an addition for Studio One, not for the StudioLive mixers. They will always and only use their own plugins in the mixers. All other companies do the same, by the way.

You have the possibilty to add Fat Channel prcoessing on sends and returns (and also for Tape In as return of Studio One), so just try what sounds best. I am using EQs on sends AND returns because that allows me to fully control the "shape" of reverbs and delays. For chorus and flanger this is less important.

I agree that there is more "room" for development, regarding the built-in reverbs. They could be more "convincing"... ;-)

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 3* 16M | SW5E

Apple routers | iPads | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 5.1.2 & Pro 3.5.6
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by michaelmccolley on Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:49 pm
Thanks

One more area (related to the original op topic) if I can.

Given that no mater what one does there will be latency in the channels that route through Studio One, does live sound sound off if all vocals are routed through Studio One BUT all instruments and other channels are routed straight into the Studiolive 32 analog? Seems there might be some delay in the vocals.

Is it a more typical better practice to route all channels through the Studio One and back to the mixer in a live environment?

If so, does having more channels routed through the Studio One require more pc system resources? Even if many of those channels are using no plugins?

I guess if there was delay of vocals in a vocal only pass through, I could simply delay all the analog channels slightly in the Studiolive.

Live Mixer: StudioLive 32 Series iii

DAW: Studio One v4.5

Computer: Win 10 Pro (1903 Build 18363.418) - x64 / CPU - AMD Ryzen 5 3600x 3.8-4.4GHz / Mobo - Asus Prime X570-P / Graphics - Gigabit AMD Radeon RX 470 4gb GDDR5 / RAM - 16gb Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz / SSD - Samsung 860 EVO 500gb
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:36 pm
Channel 1 -> Track 1/Insert Processing -> Channel 1

This is the basic routing of a signal from the StudioLive mixer through Studio One and back to the channel (1 as example) again. When there is no processing happening in Studio One on any track, there is no latency and anyway latency always has to do with plugins being used. One interesting detail: Most of the Studio One stock plugins (say they) have zero latency, when you click on the CPU control meter in Studio One and open the list of processing items.

The 1:1 routing is automatically set when you create a song in Studio One and load the template of your mixer, so this is the normal way of using Studio One with a StudioLive mixer in a live environment. Actually this has been so since the "legacy" mixers and FireWire...

It should be clear that "inserting" the processing of Studio One to a channel is mono only. Therefore it makes no sense to insert stereo effects in ONE channel/track. Using stereo effects in Studio One needs a different approach and will use sends and returns instead of inserts.

Everything depends on what plugins you want to use. An equalizer does not really add latency, a compressor does, but you don't really hear it. But there are enough equalizers and compressors available in the StudioLive mixers and in Studio One (Fat Channel plugins), so you don't really need ANY additional equalizer or compressor plugin.

What kind of plugins are you planning to use in your vocal channels/tracks?

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 3* 16M | SW5E

Apple routers | iPads | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 5.1.2 & Pro 3.5.6
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by michaelmccolley on Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:51 pm
Yes I am using the channels that I am using as 1 to 1. Channel 1 comes in and goes out channel 1 etc. Its just I am not using all my channels. I used the Studiolive 32 template, just not routing in all channels.

And Yes just using Mono plugins, we are not set up for stereo anyway.

Right now all I am using is Waves Tune Real-Time on all 7 vocal channels live. I use all other processing from the Studiolive. I like the EQs in Studiolive pretty well. And I did manage to get the reverb sounding pretty good too. I also use a very slight slap back delay set for 120ms and a feedback of 10%. I leave this on even for speaking, it just makes the room sound more lively.

I don't plan to really do a lot with Studio One as a pass thru, Just wanted to get real time pitch correction as I have some singers that really really need it.

Live Mixer: StudioLive 32 Series iii

DAW: Studio One v4.5

Computer: Win 10 Pro (1903 Build 18363.418) - x64 / CPU - AMD Ryzen 5 3600x 3.8-4.4GHz / Mobo - Asus Prime X570-P / Graphics - Gigabit AMD Radeon RX 470 4gb GDDR5 / RAM - 16gb Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz / SSD - Samsung 860 EVO 500gb
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:17 pm
I don't know if using tuning tools does make sense, musically seen. The singers also have to get along with "external" changes. It may be that tuning leads to more de-tuned singing... Technically seen I suppose the seven tuning plugins do need some processing power, which will result in hearable latency, so you need to listen to the result and if the result makes sense.

Have you tried all "conventional" ways of helping the singers sing in tune? Do they all use their own monitors or stereo in-ears? Some singers need to hear the keyboard, others need the bass or the guitar to find their tune and notes, so has that all been worked on and auto tuning is the last hope?

Just saying...

;-)

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 3* 16M | SW5E

Apple routers | iPads | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 5.1.2 & Pro 3.5.6
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by michaelmccolley on Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:33 pm
Yes we all use in ears. And I have been doing vocal coaching with a couple of them for about 3 months. Lots of work. I've been a presonus fan boy for about 2 years now. We really like the mixer. I have been using tc helicon stand alone voice tone correct xt's on all vocal channels, but the pitch correct on these is very basic and often robotic. Thought I'd try something new.

I'm going to rehearse with the SL32 and studio one using Tune Real-time in the AM. I have done my 6 mic routings and tested today. All setup. And just in case, I have a mirror copy of my mixer already set to go right back to all analog at the press of a button if things go bad.

Thanks for all Ur help.

So at the end of the day, is this method - SL to S1 and back - for running plugins live acceptable... Or would there be a better method. Say with a dedicated VST host like Waves Multirack.

Also... Is the presonus studiolive mixer when connected to a computer considered a true low latency ASIO/Core Audio Interface?

Live Mixer: StudioLive 32 Series iii

DAW: Studio One v4.5

Computer: Win 10 Pro (1903 Build 18363.418) - x64 / CPU - AMD Ryzen 5 3600x 3.8-4.4GHz / Mobo - Asus Prime X570-P / Graphics - Gigabit AMD Radeon RX 470 4gb GDDR5 / RAM - 16gb Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz / SSD - Samsung 860 EVO 500gb
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by wahlerstudios on Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:03 am
I can't answer the ASIO/Core Audio question (I'm a musician... ;-) ), but when you use PreSonus hardware and PreSonus software, you can be sure that they will work very well together. The slowest and weakest part of the chain is always the computer. PreSonus still offers "PSc Rok & Rak PreSonus Certified Computers" in their shop, which are optimized for audio, so it makes sense to check the features.

Still for this year awaited is the Waves AVB Sound Grid, which was developed with a Series III mixer as interface, so if Waves plugins are interesting, this will probably be the best and easiest way to integrate them into your workflow. It will cost some money, but if the music is worth it, why not...?

As I wrote, there are TWO ways of using Studiio One, or actually THREE. We have been dealing with the standard "insert" approach, which is good for any mono signal. Reverbs, delays, chorus and flanger typically are stereo effects, so Studio One needs to be able send to one or several stereo returns to the StudioLive mixer. "Tape In" (Digital Return) is the standard return of Studio One's main bus , which sums up all processed sends.

There are two options: You can use the SENDS of Studio One and effects busses/chains or you can route the FX sends of a StudioLive mixer through Studio One and "replace" the built-in effects by plugins. As an example: If you do not want to use any of the reverbs on FX A, route the USB signal of FX A to a track in Studio, add a bus with a stock reverb or plugin and route the stereo return back to the console via "Tape In".

I add a picture from a project this week, where I used the Lexicon reverb on FX A and a delay/reverb chain on FX B. I hope the photo can show the approach better than the previous photo. In this case I used FX C (chorus) and FX D (delay) of the StudioLive mixer. Replacing the mixer's effects allows you to use the mixer's faders instead of fiddling around with Studio One. And it also corresponds with DAW mode, which is what I call the third approach, but it's actually only an addition to what is happening already. All this works perfect together because it is meant to work together.

Good luck!

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by michaelmccolley on Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:04 am
Thanks again for all the various ideas and routing methods. My head is exploding with possibility.

As for the trial run today using only a single plugin insert - Waves Tune Real-Time - on 6 vocal channels. The practice went so well we decided to implement it into live performance. The end result was flawless. Vocals were corrected and very tight. Probably the best we've ever sounded. And yet even using 128 Sample buffer size, nothing seemed out of time with the live instruments that were coming in analog. Over all a very good day.

Plan not is to upgrade to a larger processor quad with hyperthreading, and get Studio One v4.5 upgrade that (supposedly) takes advantage of the multiple cores more efficiently. Then add more plugins and lower the Sample buffer size.

Do I realized, "Computers can crash"? Yes. But I did build an all analog copy of the mixer right next to it. So if we have a pc failure, it only takes about 3 seconds to switch projects. We tried it today. And even if the mics went dead, we would not loss any sound from the analog instrument inputs during the switch over. So we'd loss mics for a bout 4 seconds, but not instruments. So over all a pretty good fail safe too.

Im sure I'll have more questions as I progress, but thanks for all the help now

Live Mixer: StudioLive 32 Series iii

DAW: Studio One v4.5

Computer: Win 10 Pro (1903 Build 18363.418) - x64 / CPU - AMD Ryzen 5 3600x 3.8-4.4GHz / Mobo - Asus Prime X570-P / Graphics - Gigabit AMD Radeon RX 470 4gb GDDR5 / RAM - 16gb Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz / SSD - Samsung 860 EVO 500gb
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by michaelmccolley on Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:01 pm
Does the Waves BR1 AVB to Soudgrid bridge actually exist yet? Seems a few months ago on this forum the method to connect an SL to Soundgrid was up in the air. But it looks like Waves now has the BR1.

https://www.waves.com/hardware/soundgrid-br1

If understand the diagram on that page for setting it up , I would need the BR1 to link the AVB network I/O to the Soundgrid network, a soundgrid switch and a host computer for Multirack. But what I dont understand it why I would need an AVB manager? What is that and is it necessary just to run Multirack in Soundgrid mode to AVB and the SL 32?

Live Mixer: StudioLive 32 Series iii

DAW: Studio One v4.5

Computer: Win 10 Pro (1903 Build 18363.418) - x64 / CPU - AMD Ryzen 5 3600x 3.8-4.4GHz / Mobo - Asus Prime X570-P / Graphics - Gigabit AMD Radeon RX 470 4gb GDDR5 / RAM - 16gb Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz / SSD - Samsung 860 EVO 500gb
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by Trucky on Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:50 pm
wahlerstudios wrote1) There is no Digital Send Source" control on the mixer/touchscreen, for whatever reason. You need UC Surface to use this function.

Here's where it's located on the Series III:

Image

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by michaelmccolley on Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:20 pm
Well I be Darn ... there it is. Sweet Thanks

Live Mixer: StudioLive 32 Series iii

DAW: Studio One v4.5

Computer: Win 10 Pro (1903 Build 18363.418) - x64 / CPU - AMD Ryzen 5 3600x 3.8-4.4GHz / Mobo - Asus Prime X570-P / Graphics - Gigabit AMD Radeon RX 470 4gb GDDR5 / RAM - 16gb Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz / SSD - Samsung 860 EVO 500gb
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by wahlerstudios on Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:57 pm
Interesting detail. ;-) In UC Surface the option is always available, on the mixer only when "Pre" is selected. Does this make sense?

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SL16 | 32R | 16R | 3* 16M | SW5E

Apple routers | iPads | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 5.1.2 & Pro 3.5.6
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by babulmukherjee on Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:35 am
Great post! Thanks to all who contributed!

I need to set aside a day to focus on all the great information here as I have a project studio with 24R at its heart.

Using Capture & 24R, then moving into Studio One for additional tracking & mixing, has been a game changer for me. But working directly within Studio One to manage everything is my ultimate goal :D

Apple 2017 i7 iMac Mojave, StudioLive III 24R, Studio One 4.6, Sceptre S8, Monitor Station v1, FaderPort v1, Sennheiser HD 650, Studio Channel
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by SwitchBack on Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:24 am
wahlerstudios wrote.4) Change Routing And Add Effect/Plugin
!!!!! * Mute track 1 in Studio One or set fader 1 to infinite (no signal passing through). By default all faders are set to 0 dB, which will immediatley cause feedback when you change routing.

* In UC Surface (or the mixer's touchscreen) go to the settings page of channel 1 and change the input of channel 1 from Analog to USB.
* Press the Routing button and set "Digital Send Source" to "Analog" (see picture in previous post)...

I found an easy sidestep to avoid feedback between selecting “USB” and selecting “Analog”: Select “Network”, then “Analog” and only then “USB” ;)
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by klypeman on Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:33 am
SwitchBack wrote
wahlerstudios wrote.4) Change Routing And Add Effect/Plugin
!!!!! * Mute track 1 in Studio One or set fader 1 to infinite (no signal passing through). By default all faders are set to 0 dB, which will immediatley cause feedback when you change routing.

* In UC Surface (or the mixer's touchscreen) go to the settings page of channel 1 and change the input of channel 1 from Analog to USB.
* Press the Routing button and set "Digital Send Source" to "Analog" (see picture in previous post)...

I found an easy sidestep to avoid feedback between selecting “USB” and selecting “Analog”: Select “Network”, then “Analog” and only then “USB” ;)

Nice tidbit !! Thanks ! :thumbup:

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by michaelmccolley on Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:25 am
I am flirting with Interfaces. Not even sure I know what I am talking about here ... so any advice would be appreciated.

Right now it seems the simplest (most cost effective) way to connect a Studiolive 32 series iii mixer to a PC (windows) is via USB 2 direct from the mixer.

Problem is latency. With USB 2 You are going to be dealing with around 4.5-5 ms of Round Trip Latency at 48kHz and 64 samples before any plugins are used.

So I was wondering today, would something like a Motu M64 AVB improve latency? Would it connect AVB from the SL to the Motu and then USB 2 into the PC? Even though it would use the SL's AVB connection, wouldn't it still have the USB 2 RTL limitations? Are the Motu USB drivers any better than the a direct USB connection from the SL?

So what about the RME Digiface AVB? it is USB 3. Would it connect the AVB of the SL to a USB 3 connection? Would that improve RTL in and out of Studio One or some other DAW or VST Host?

I am looking for a better way to connect all 32 channels of the SL series iii to a PC for the best Round Trip Latency Possible. Seems there is very few options other than the USB 2 direct connection from the SL. I did see this one AVB card that Presonus mentioned - the NIC-1 - and this might work, but wondering about compatibility issues as it seems to kinda stalled. (press release goes back to around 2014). I can find no mention of Latency times with the NIC-1 card

Is there any way to improve RTL from the SL to a PC and back?

Live Mixer: StudioLive 32 Series iii

DAW: Studio One v4.5

Computer: Win 10 Pro (1903 Build 18363.418) - x64 / CPU - AMD Ryzen 5 3600x 3.8-4.4GHz / Mobo - Asus Prime X570-P / Graphics - Gigabit AMD Radeon RX 470 4gb GDDR5 / RAM - 16gb Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200MHz / SSD - Samsung 860 EVO 500gb

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