Hi, and welcome to this forum

That's a lot of questions for a first post. Well done Here's a summary that may answer most of them.

You have to connecting the AVB ports of both mixers together with a CAT5e or CAT6 cable (no less, and more isn't always better). Each mixer will automatically broadcast 64 audio channels on this AVB 'network', the default patching including all 'dry' mic/line inputs, the Aux inputs and all outputs. Sort of a splitter on steroids. So when the stage mixer includes its output mixes in the 64 channels to the AVB network then the FOH mixer can use them too (to answer your last question).

On each mixer you can can then choose per channel an input from the local mic/line inputs, or from all channels available on the AVB network (or from USB, or from SC-card). This makes the mixes per mixer completely independent from each other except for preamp gain. But there is local input gain control for adjustments too.

For remote control it's handy to have both mixers on the same LAN, separate from the AVB network. So yes, you need both ports on the mixers. The 32R can only be controlled from the apps (Universal Control, UC Surface, QMix-UC), there is no physical controller for it. From the app you choose the mixer from those available on your LAN. Access is granted to specific devices and can be restricted to specific mixes per mixer too. Access to preamps can also be restricted to one specific mixer or app on the LAN.

Per default both mixers work independently, but there are two modes available where one mixer gets exclusive access to the main output or to all outputs on the other mixer. So the FOH mixer can have exclusive access to the main outputs of the rack mixer on stage. With the AVB connection in place you can also send FOH Aux mixes to specific outputs on the other mixer.

Each mixer can have a Main mix and 16 Aux mixes (8 stereo) and your broadcast mix can be any of these. Doing FOH from one mixer allows a completely independent broadcast mix from the other mixer. It makes sense to have a USB connection from that mixer to your broadcast computer but a stereo analog audio connection works just as well (and allows more distance between mixer and computer). Installing Universal Control on the broadcast computer will install the drivers (for the USB connection) and it also installs the app to control the broadcast mix(er). But you can do that from another computer or tablet too.

Hope this helps as a start

A lot of questions, so you need a lot of answers. 😊 The rack mixer is supposed to be on stage, because it will also function as stagebox, so there has to be a connection to the place or room where livestream mix and video mix will be happening. The Atem Mini Extreme has analog inputs only (Mic 1, Mic 2), so it needs just two audio cables to connect rack mixer and video mixer. But you need to hear/control the livestream mix, so you should add a small analog mixer between rack mixer and video mixer, which allows to listen to the livestream mix via headphones or monitors.

A FaderPort can not control an audio mixer, because it's strictly a DAW controller. But there is no DAW involved, so the only option to control the livestream mix is via a tablet or a computer connected to the Control Network which the rack mixer is connected to (the monitor mixes need Remote Control). Mixing on a small tablet is no fun, so you should think of a solution based on a computer and a touch screen. You can use a cheap 'mini computer' because UC Surface does not need any CPU resources.

Functionally, a livestream mix is the same as a FOH mix, so it will make sense to use the rack mixer in Stand-alone Mode, which adds an independent Main L/R mix. The basic problem you will have is that monitor mixes and a livestream mix have different 'needs', so the person doing the livestream mix must be able and willing to work with the musicians and singers. Even though the mixes are separate, all have to use the same Fat Channel settings.

Therefore it might be an idea to use a stereo aux mix of the FOH mixer for the livestream mix. Control via UC Surface is possible if the FOH mixer is also connected to the Control Network and the livestream mix can be 'sent' via the AVB network to mix outputs of the rack mixer. It would also be possible to have the monitor mixes located in the FOH mixer and send the mixes to the rack mixer's outputs.

SwitchBack wroteHi, and welcome to this forum

That's a lot of questions for a first post. Well done Here's a summary that may answer most of them.

You have to connecting the AVB ports of both mixers together with a CAT5e or CAT6 cable (no less, and more isn't always better). Each mixer will automatically broadcast 64 audio channels on this AVB 'network', the default patching including all 'dry' mic/line inputs, the Aux inputs and all outputs. Sort of a splitter on steroids. So when the stage mixer includes its output mixes in the 64 channels to the AVB network then the FOH mixer can use them too (to answer your last question).

On each mixer you can can then choose per channel an input from the local mic/line inputs, or from all channels available on the AVB network (or from USB, or from SC-card). This makes the mixes per mixer completely independent from each other except for preamp gain. But there is local input gain control for adjustments too.

For remote control it's handy to have both mixers on the same LAN, separate from the AVB network. So yes, you need both ports on the mixers. The 32R can only be controlled from the apps (Universal Control, UC Surface, QMix-UC), there is no physical controller for it. From the app you choose the mixer from those available on your LAN. Access is granted to specific devices and can be restricted to specific mixes per mixer too. Access to preamps can also be restricted to one specific mixer or app on the LAN.

Per default both mixers work independently, but there are two modes available where one mixer gets exclusive access to the main output or to all outputs on the other mixer. So the FOH mixer can have exclusive access to the main outputs of the rack mixer on stage. With the AVB connection in place you can also send FOH Aux mixes to specific outputs on the other mixer.

Each mixer can have a Main mix and 16 Aux mixes (8 stereo) and your broadcast mix can be any of these. Doing FOH from one mixer allows a completely independent broadcast mix from the other mixer. It makes sense to have a USB connection from that mixer to your broadcast computer but a stereo analog audio connection works just as well (and allows more distance between mixer and computer). Installing Universal Control on the broadcast computer will install the drivers (for the USB connection) and it also installs the app to control the broadcast mix(er). But you can do that from another computer or tablet too.

Hope this helps as a start

Thanks Switchback, you has been very helpful.

Switchback... you mentioned that the 32R is " sort of a splitter on steroids". So can I "split" analogue inputs 1-32 on the 32R to both 32S and 32R and independently use the pre-amp, FAT, FX, etc on each mixer via AVB? Then also route each of the mixer's Main L/R, Aux, Sub and Matrix between the two? Which setup is best for that, i.e. Secondary Mixer, Standalone mode?

Would be nice to have some sort of physical control surface similar to what Behringer's X-Touch has with their X-Air XR12 and XR16 rack mixers.

wahlerstudios wroteA lot of questions, so you need a lot of answers. 😊 The rack mixer is supposed to be on stage, because it will also function as stagebox, so there has to be a connection to the place or room where livestream mix and video mix will be happening. The Atem Mini Extreme has analog inputs only (Mic 1, Mic 2), so it needs just two audio cables to connect rack mixer and video mixer. But you need to hear/control the livestream mix, so you should add a small analog mixer between rack mixer and video mixer, which allows to listen to the livestream mix via headphones or monitors.

A FaderPort can not control an audio mixer, because it's strictly a DAW controller. But there is no DAW involved, so the only option to control the livestream mix is via a tablet or a computer connected to the Control Network which the rack mixer is connected to (the monitor mixes need Remote Control). Mixing on a small tablet is no fun, so you should think of a solution based on a computer and a touch screen. You can use a cheap 'mini computer' because UC Surface does not need any CPU resources.

Functionally, a livestream mix is the same as a FOH mix, so it will make sense to use the rack mixer in Stand-alone Mode, which adds an independent Main L/R mix. The basic problem you will have is that monitor mixes and a livestream mix have different 'needs', so the person doing the livestream mix must be able and willing to work with the musicians and singers. Even though the mixes are separate, all have to use the same Fat Channel settings.

Therefore it might be an idea to use a stereo aux mix of the FOH mixer for the livestream mix. Control via UC Surface is possible if the FOH mixer is also connected to the Control Network and the livestream mix can be 'sent' via the AVB network to mix outputs of the rack mixer. It would also be possible to have the monitor mixes located in the FOH mixer and send the mixes to the rack mixer's outputs.

Thanks wahlerstudios for your reply. Appreciate your advice.

Regarding the FAT channels, can't each channel be "split" to both the 32S and 32R and have the ability to configure FAT channel independently on each mixer? I thought maybe only the pre-amps could not be split, but everything after that can.

As I mentioned to Switchback, would be nice to have some sort of physical control surface similar to what Behringer's X-Touch has with their X-Air XR12 and XR16 rack mixers.

leightondonaldson wroteSwitchback... you mentioned that the 32R is " sort of a splitter on steroids". So can I "split" analogue inputs 1-32 on the 32R to both 32S and 32R and independently use the pre-amp, FAT, FX, etc on each mixer via AVB? Then also route each of the mixer's Main L/R, Aux, Sub and Matrix between the two? Which setup is best for that, i.e. Secondary Mixer, Standalone mode?

Would be nice to have some sort of physical control surface similar to what Behringer's X-Touch has with their X-Air XR12 and XR16 rack mixers.

The whole AVB network works as a huge splitter because all networked devices (can) broadcast all their analog inputs and a bunch of their mix outputs on it, available for all to use. That also means that all devices will share the preamps used to get the analog signal in on each channel. Changing a preamp's gain from any of the devices on the network will change the signal level in the broadcast. So it's best to lock out all devices but one from preamp gain control. So for example you can have FOH lock out the stage mixer from control over it's own preamps. In return the stage mixer gets a -20...+20dB input gain control over what comes out of the preamp. So the person in control of the preamps has to be disciplined. FAT, FX etc. will be completely independent on each mixer.

In comparison the NSB stage boxes have 2 output streams per input, a 'normal' preamp output stream and a gain compensated (GC) output stream. That way gain in the analog part of the preamp can be changed without affecting the other users, within limits that is. Mixers don't have that feature.

I tend to keep the mixers as stand-alone as I can for maximum DSP availability. I never use stagebox mode and I only use monitor mixer mode when the FOH speakers are connected to the stage mixer and not to the FOH mixer. But that's me And I let all on stage do (or at least control) their own monitor mixes).

And by now I'm perfectly happy with controlling the rack mixer from the apps, especially now that the apps also have a user layer for the faders.

It's called "digital split", but you shouldn't see it as conventional split. When you connect two mixers (or three, and stageboxes), there is a network with 64 inputs and 64 outputs and both mixers can add signals as input sends to the network and take signals as output sends from the network. The input and output signals are available via AVB, USB and SD (SD is limited to 32+2 signals).

The FOH mixer controls the network and also the preamps involved, so the other mixers have a "digital trim" or more control. There are several options, which depend on the mode selected and if access to preamps is allowed. I don't think that there is a chart or something available to show all the options.

As you want to use the 32R as broadcast mixer, you need to run it in Stand-alone Mode. It's not clear if the 32R is also meant to be your stagebox or if you want to add a NSB stagebox or another rack mixer. You need the Main L/R mix of the 32R and you need its USB port.

There would be the option to NOT mix via UC Surface, but via a DAW with a Faderport as DAW controller. Then the Faderport would have alle the faders and buttons and encoders and everything and the rack mixer would be the audio interface.

Not sure if the broadcast mix really needs to use the 32R's main mix. If you want you can use the mixer in monitor mixer mode (for the FOH speakers) and use a pair of Mix outputs for the broadcast mix.

There isn't one mixer controlling the AVB network. Each mixer on the network will broadcast 8 streams of 8 channels. With 2 mixers that's 16 streams of 8 channels to choose from, not that a mixer would or even can choose its own broadcasted streams. But with say 4 mixers there would be 32 streams of 8 channels floating around, not 8 or 16. For inputs each of the 4 mixers can then select 8 streams of 8 channels from the 24 streams made available by the other 3 mixers.

There is the matter of the clock master on the network. Only one mixer can use its own internal clock and the other mixers have to use the network stream clock. It also requires those mixers to take their first AVB input stream (channels 1-8) from the mixer on internal clock. So logic dictates to have your stage mixer as clock master.

"The FOH mixer controls the network" is still true, not only because the FOH mixer as 'heart of the network' functions as clock of the network. Only the FOH mixer can 'tell' the 32R and any other mixer to work in Monitor Mixer Mode, Stand-alone Mode or Stagebox Mode. No mixer can select a network mode by itself, but will always start working as full mixer when it is not connected to a network.

And yes, the Fat Channel settings are 'per mixer', but it needs the setting "Pre" in the Digital Send Options of each input channel. This is a default network setting and it guarantees that all mixers in the network receive 'raw' signals. The default setting for output sends is "Post", because the master faders need to be included.

A 32R in Stand-alone Mode will normally use its Main L/R outputs (input source = "Mixer"), but it's possible to select "Network" as input source for Main L/R so that the FOH mix of the 32S can be sent to the outputs. The Main mix of the 32R is available then via USB and AVB and also via the headphone output on the front panel.

wahlerstudios wrote"The FOH mixer controls the network" is still true, not only because the FOH mixer as 'heart of the network' functions as clock of the network. Only the FOH mixer can 'tell' the 32R and any other mixer to work in Monitor Mixer Mode, Stand-alone Mode or Stagebox Mode. No mixer can select a network mode by itself, but will always start working as full mixer when it is not connected to a network.

And yes, the Fat Channel settings are 'per mixer', but it needs the setting "Pre" in the Digital Send Options of each input channel. This is a default network setting and it guarantees that all mixers in the network receive 'raw' signals. The default setting for output sends is "Post", because the master faders need to be included.

A 32R in Stand-alone Mode will normally use its Main L/R outputs (input source = "Mixer"), but it's possible to select "Network" as input source for Main L/R so that the FOH mix of the 32S can be sent to the outputs. The Main mix of the 32R is available then via USB and AVB and also via the headphone output on the front panel.

"FOH controls the network" simply isn't true. There is no 'heart of the network'.

I can have my 32R put my SL16 in monitor mixer mode and restrict its access to the preamps. I can't instruct it to be a stage box but that's a model limitation rather than an 'assigned function' limitation. Makes all perfect sense because in a network with two console mixers or two rack mixers either mixer can be assigned as FOH or stage mixer and either mixer can put the other in all modes available for that model mixer. And I can easily think of situations where I rather have the stage mixer control the preamps than have FOH do it.

Also not true that FOH needs to be clock master. With my SL16 - 2x NSB - 32R network it makes perfect sense to make the 32R clock master. The SL16 has to receive 32R inputs anyway, including that mandatory first stream. But the 32R may have more need for a few stagebox inputs than for any of the SL16 inputs. So it can do without having to take the first AVB input stream from the SL16.

The terms "FOH mixer" or "heart of the network" may be replaced by "AVB Controller", which seems to be the term PreSonus is using ("A controller can be a talker, a listener, or neither. These devices handle routing, clock, and other settings for AVB devices", from Technical Articles "An Introduction to AVB Networking"). In most cases this will be the FOH mixer, but any mixer in the AVB network can do this job.

I also see that the consoles can not be used in Stagebox Mode, which does make sense because the console would look totally dead. 😊 It's already very confusing to see a Series III console running in Monitor Mixer Mode, which means that there is no access to the Main mix.

The network we are talking about here is quite a small and easy one. It's just a 32S and a 32R, which will also be used as stagebox (which is NOT Stagebox Mode). No switch, no stageboxes, no personal mixers - just a single Ethernet cable between the two mixers. I would recommend to route the 64 I/O streams equally between the mixers, so the 32S should see all banks of the 32R and the 32R should see all banks of the 32S. This makes it possible to route everything everywhere when needed.

The question is what will be better, a mix via the 32R or a mix in a DAW with a Faderport for faders and buttons and encoders? Adding a second 32S and using the 32R in Stagebox Mode would be the best solution, but you would need an SW5E AVB switch and everything gets much more expensive.

Thanks to both Switchback and whalerstudios for your advice and back and forward conversations. I guess there are many ways to skin that cat as it were. It's been very engaging and an excellent learning experience.

Been interesting to try work out what both of you are talking about. I'm a network engineer, and part-time Audio/AV/Lighting engineer so trying to get my head out of the network and into the audio realm haha...

Anyway, I have created two simple Visio diagrams of current audio setup and a proposed (what I am wanting to achieve if possible).

Obviously, the analogue multicore will become obsolete using the AVD/Network Control.

The black connecting lines are physical connections. The red connecting lines are logical connections over the AVB physical connection.

Have a squiz on the proposed and let me know if this is possible... or a better way to do it.


Cheers

wahlerstudios wrote... I would recommend to route the 64 I/O streams equally between the mixers, so the 32S should see all banks of the 32R and the 32R should see all banks of the 32S. This makes it possible to route everything everywhere when needed...

64 Channels? Yes, you can. But why? When there is a listener for a talker's streams then bandwidth will be reserved on the network. And whilst there is ample of it it's not a good habit to initiate traffic just because you can. Just make the connections you need. Your network may grow and at some point you'll wish you had a few spare slots.

The reason why I recommend the 'full' routing between two mixers as network is that it allows a flexible use of the mixers and what each mixer can 'send' to the network. It does make sense to route the rack mixer's sends 1-32 aka the mono input channels to the network, also sends 33-40 aka the stereo channels including Main L/R. Sends 41-56 are the flex mixes, so only sends 57-64 do not have a 'logical' counterpart. But if you want to route Talkback between the mixers, you will probably use send 64, so it does make sense to add bank 57-64.

When the rack mixer is used in Stagebox Mode, it just needs the corresponding input send routing. The output send routing is 'organized' by the network preset (and can not be changed manually). But when you start using Monitor Mixer Mode or Stand-alone Mode, the 'full' routing can be very helpful. One example is to 'exchange' flex/monitor mixes between the mixers. If someone can't use his QMix-UC, the mix can be handled in the FOH mixer and sent to the mix output of the rack mixer. Or if there are 'tracks' involved at FOH, the monitor mixer can 'see' that as input signals.

Again, this approach makes sense only for two mixers. If an NSB stagebox is involved, then the routing must be different.

leightondonaldson wroteThanks to both Switchback and whalerstudios for your advice and back and forward conversations. I guess there are many ways to skin that cat as it were. It's been very engaging and an excellent learning experience.

Been interesting to try work out what both of you are talking about. I'm a network engineer, and part-time Audio/AV/Lighting engineer so trying to get my head out of the network and into the audio realm haha...

Anyway, I have created two simple Visio diagrams of current audio setup and a proposed (what I am wanting to achieve if possible).

Obviously, the analogue multicore will become obsolete using the AVD/Network Control.

The black connecting lines are physical connections. The red connecting lines are logical connections over the AVB physical connection.

Have a squiz on the proposed and let me know if this is possible... or a better way to do it.


Cheers

I had a look and the proposed plan feels a bit convoluted. The problem is that you have 2 independent 'sets' of channel FAT processing and at least 3 askers (FOH, monitor mixes, broadcast mix) so some have to share. In your proposed setup monitors and broadcast share. I probably would have FOH and broadcast share, as you had before, because they tend to have more in common and performers don't like their mixes to change due to broadcast changes. And then the stage can have the 32R (in monitor mixer mode) to themselves. FOH and subs will use the 32R's main out and the fills can probably use a pair of the 32S's subgroup outputs (copy of main mix, delayed).

But the key question is: how many input channels do you actually need/use. You can split inputs onto two mixer channel if you want, for 2 independent FAT channels. That way the broadcast mix can share a few FAT channels with FOH and have a few of its own.

wahlerstudios wroteThe reason why I recommend the 'full' routing between two mixers as network is that it allows a flexible use of the mixers and what each mixer can 'send' to the network. It does make sense to route the rack mixer's sends 1-32 aka the mono input channels to the network, also sends 33-40 aka the stereo channels including Main L/R. Sends 41-56 are the flex mixes, so only sends 57-64 do not have a 'logical' counterpart. But if you want to route Talkback between the mixers, you will probably use send 64, so it does make sense to add bank 57-64.

When the rack mixer is used in Stagebox Mode, it just needs the corresponding input send routing. The output send routing is 'organized' by the network preset (and can not be changed manually). But when you start using Monitor Mixer Mode or Stand-alone Mode, the 'full' routing can be very helpful. One example is to 'exchange' flex/monitor mixes between the mixers. If someone can't use his QMix-UC, the mix can be handled in the FOH mixer and sent to the mix output of the rack mixer. Or if there are 'tracks' involved at FOH, the monitor mixer can 'see' that as input signals.

Again, this approach makes sense only for two mixers. If an NSB stagebox is involved, then the routing must be different.

If that's all you'll ever have then fine. But even add an EarMix and you could be in trouble. To cluster all the channels the EarMix wants into 2 streams will have you reprogram the whole system. Waste not want not