tyaudronis wrote

roblof wrote

tyaudronis wroteOn the studio one issue (above). Wait, seriously? a 6 hz refresh rate? Is that just for control devices? Because if that's the case, MIDI shouldn't work at all (unless they only do it for control devices which would just be... stupid). Can we get a Presonus tech to verify that figure?

I think that it is only fader control data that has a slower refresh rate and perhaps also thinned out because of the amount of pitchbend data being transmitted.

In this video someone posted a year ago you can clearly hear/see the fader update rate:

https://youtu.be/DtFwmEwhUHo

It comes from this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=213&t=18078

In reaper you can actually set the refresh rate you'd like and I've not seen any other daw with that feature.

Thanks, I'll check your links out. I can understand a bit slower... but 6hz? Wait... that doesn't explain why Behringer works better on S1 than the FP8 though.

According to the videos I have seen the fp8 faders move more slowly than the x-touch and will probably lag even more. This might be what gives the impression of what works better or what not.

Fader speed is a tradeoff between snappiness and smothness. The faster they can move the less smooth they appear. I was told that the x-touch faders actually can mechanicaly move much faster but they reduced the speed as most daws didn't send the position data fast enough to cope with the fader speed.

Ok... that makes sense! I'm definitely going to check that thing out after my current project is done. Too bad Guitar Center's recording gear isn't top-notch anymore. I doubt they have one there to play with. One thing is for sure: Next round, I'm going to buy from somewhere that doesn't have a restocking fee on exchanges.

Thank you for the info!

I think that I remember seeing editing an xml-file in s1 might give you a better fader refresh rate but I am unable to find it.

I wonder if it was Lawrence that posted that hack?

I'll keep looking. I'm pretty familiar with XML, but at taking a brief look at both XML files for the FP8, there doesn't seem to be any <configuration> type of tags... just mappings. I'd definitely be interested in figuring it out. Maybe it's not in the individual device XML files, but maybe somewhere in the configs for S1 itself for all control surfaces.

roblof wroteI think that I remember seeing editing an xml-file in s1 might give you a better fader refresh rate but I am unable to find it.

I wonder if it was Lawrence that posted that hack?

Just tried it in Pro Tools 12 in HUI. About the same lag.

tyaudronis wrote1) By merely touching it while it's down (but your audio level is actually up), you've just written "down" information. THAT's the biggest problem with a laggy surface. You touch it... it writes.
2) I come on here because I genuinely want to see them succeed.

Thanks
1) Have you ever seen the FP8 write out of sync data in a real world scenario?
Just to be clear your video interesting edge case test, demonstrates the following:
Physical fader > A/D convert > FP8 firmware (with adjustable dampening built in) > MIDI driver latency > S1 input buffers > S1 mix engine(grouping logic) /automation engine > S1 output > MIDI driver output delay > FP8 firmware calibration settings > D/A converter > grouped fader physical response.
This is why you see similar responses from the MCU unit as the manufacturer has to balance between reasonable response time and reasonable accuracy.

The RTL of this controller will be improved where possible. There may also be firmware improvements in the touch mode automation signal from the FP8.

2) Please let us know if you acquire a more accurate/stable and useful controller in the same price range.

Thanks

roblof wroteI think that I remember seeing editing an xml-file in s1 might give you a better fader refresh rate but I am unable to find it.

I wonder if it was Lawrence that posted that hack?

I found it !

Replace the beginning of the file 'devices/Mackie/Control/MackieShared.surface.xml' with the following and at least on my X-Touch there is a huge difference in the refresh rate of the faders:

Code: Select all

.
.
.
<Controls>
        <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->
        <!-- Faders -->
        <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->

                <Control name="fader[0]" type="fader" options="transmit receive"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="0"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[1]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="1"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[2]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="2"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[3]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="3"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[4]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="4"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[5]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="5"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[6]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="6"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[7]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="7"/> </Control>
.
.
.

jpettit wrote

tyaudronis wrote1) By merely touching it while it's down (but your audio level is actually up), you've just written "down" information. THAT's the biggest problem with a laggy surface. You touch it... it writes.
2) I come on here because I genuinely want to see them succeed.

Thanks
1) Have you ever seen the FP8 write out of sync data in a real world scenario?
Just to be clear your video interesting edge case test, demonstrates the following:
Physical fader > A/D convert > FP8 firmware (with adjustable dampening built in) > MIDI driver latency > S1 input buffers > S1 mix engine(grouping logic) /automation engine > S1 output > MIDI driver output delay > FP8 firmware calibration settings > D/A converter > grouped fader physical response.
This is why you see similar responses from the MCU unit as the manufacturer has to balance between reasonable response time and reasonable accuracy.

The RTL of this controller will be improved where possible. There may also be firmware improvements in the touch mode automation signal from the FP8.

2) Please let us know if you acquire a more accurate/stable and useful controller in the same price range.

Thanks

Thanks for your response:

Yes, it's kind of what spawned this whole thread. Doing some scoring for a video game, and I noticed that the analog display (the painted on numbers) had my slider at exactly -10 db (lined up with the line on the slider). But the software had me at much closer to -15 during automation playback. And now the slider was positioning itself at around -16 db. (hence me saying they were coming back kinda where I put them but not really). During my video, if you watch closely... you'll hear what sounds like "play" in the automation motor drive. Like when it changes direction it sounds like the chain-drive on a roller coaster engaging the cars. I hope you know what I mean with that lame analogy. It's just like there's a bit of traveling needed to be done by the drive before it actually engages the slider or something. Again, I haven't touched the MCU Pro as of yet, so I can't speak to it. Again though (and I do keep having to say this... it's like people don't actually read the thread), I do understand Newton's laws, and understand you can't move sliders at light speed without them falling apart.

But seriously? 1/4 note triangles get inverted compared to the screen? That's acceptable? Did you see the other post from the gentleman who's x-touch has a much higher response? As for real world? Yes. During my scoring I encountered several instances where I touched the slider to make an adjustment during playback, and due to the lag, the slider was in the wrong position, and did write the wrong position. (the other example was of the inacuracy, this one is of the lag affecting the project)

As for a more accurate set of sliders (and faster)... I did already mention the BCF. However...

(and it's two glaring howevers)

- BCF sliders...They are noisier (suckage for home studio because it forces you to wear headphones)
- No touch sensitivity on the BCF (so the only way it registers not to move the sliders is that you're actually moving it, forcing latch mode - else it keeps trying to move it while you hold it, giving you a bit of a small sawtooth in your automation curves)

Bought two of those in 2009 for ~$150 each. Don't know why they're $299 now. And, you can even get one of those old command 8s off of ebay for around $300 bucks now. (more accurate and faster).

I didn't really want to list other Products on the Presonus site (except to just speak to the price being too high for the FP8... not to say "buy a Behringer"), but you asked.

What they don't get is that nothing any company ever makes is perfect. But they can always improve if they know what's wrong. And user discussions are usually one person raising an issue, and uses talking about how the company can fix it. Not bashing a user for talking about it. It's like design problems are Voldermort up in here.

The IDEA of this thing is flippin' amazing. Just a major thing was overlooked (making a set of the best possible sliders in this price range) instead of marketing this as a way of never having to touch your keyboard to make selections and move through S1.

If that's what you want, get a colored keyboard with keyboard shortcuts labeled on it like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Presonus-Studio- ... s+keyboard.

But instead of making a great slider set... they use up the modest cost of this unit on gingerbread instead of substance. It's a gimmick. Are the features cool? For sure. But they're not the priority. It's like buying a car with heated seats, but a lawnmower engine under the hood.

And what's Presonus's response? To take it offline? That if I don't install malware on my machine, I won't get support? I offered alternatives, but Presonus went radio silent. Between advising clients, friends, and personal purchases, I've spent at least 6-figures over the years with Presonus. Hell, when I had an issue with an Avid system (granted, a much larger system), I got a call from the CEO of Avid the next day. That response from Presonus made me do a double-take with them.

This isn't a manufacturing defect (if it was, one slider maybe screwing up... two at most.) It's something else. Now, whether it's a simple fix of the refresh rate from S1 (but Pro Tools behaves the same with it), or a firmware problem, or a mechanical design problem... who knows. But I gave my response to it, and got a lot of grief for it (something I generally get paid pretty well to give).

Believe me... I was kind. If I was reviewing this in one of the magazines I write for, I would have torn it a new one (and the vendor's outrageous restocking fee).

I was trying to keep this private (notice my youtube videos are unlisted) within the context of these forums. But man... I'm seriously considering pitching this head to head idea to my editors and see if one bites.

After all these years, this is the first thread I've posted on in the Presonus forums. Hope that it's not all like this.

roblof wrote

roblof wroteI think that I remember seeing editing an xml-file in s1 might give you a better fader refresh rate but I am unable to find it.

I wonder if it was Lawrence that posted that hack?

I found it !

Replace the beginning of the file 'devices/Mackie/Control/MackieShared.surface.xml' with the following and at least on my X-Touch there is a huge difference in the refresh rate of the faders:

Code: Select all

.
.
.
<Controls>
        <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->
        <!-- Faders -->
        <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->

                <Control name="fader[0]" type="fader" options="transmit receive"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="0"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[1]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="1"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[2]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="2"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[3]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="3"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[4]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="4"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[5]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="5"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[6]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="6"/> </Control>
                <Control name="fader[7]" type="fader" options="transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="7"/> </Control>
.
.
.

THIS NEEDS TO BE A FRIGGIN' STICKY POST!!! I'll give it a try on the FP8 and report back. THANK YOU!

Since you're not running in Mackie MCU-mode I can only assume that you want to add the option 'fastupdate' in the 'devices/PreSonus/FaderPort\ 8/FP8FaderBank.surface.xml' file instead.

tyaudronis wroteTHIS NEEDS TO BE A FRIGGIN' STICKY POST!!! I'll give it a try on the FP8 and report back. THANK YOU!

roblof wroteSince you're not running in Mackie MCU-mode I can only assume that you want to add the option 'fastupdate' in the 'devices/PreSonus/FaderPort\ 8/FP8FaderBank.surface.xml' file instead.

tyaudronis wroteTHIS NEEDS TO BE A FRIGGIN' STICKY POST!!! I'll give it a try on the FP8 and report back. THANK YOU!

Yep, that did quite a bit. It's actually reasonable now. You're the man! Latency is down to around 1/10 of a second now (making it viable as a surface). See guys? Figuring out how to solve a problem is better than just attacking someone for saying it exists!

Presonus, you'll need to update your FP8 settings on the next release.

Here's what it is for the FP8:

Update the top of devices/PreSonus/FaderPort\ 8/FP8FaderBank.surface.xml to read like this:

Code: Select all

<ControlSurface>
   <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->
   <!-- CONTROL DEFINITIONS -->
   <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->

   <Controls>
        <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->
        <!-- Faders -->
        <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->

      <Control name="fader[0]" title="Fader 1" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="0"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[1]" title="Fader 2" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="1"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[2]" title="Fader 3" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="2"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[3]" title="Fader 4" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="3"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[4]" title="Fader 5" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="4"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[5]" title="Fader 6" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="5"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[6]" title="Fader 7" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="6"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[7]" title="Fader 8" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="7"/> </Control>

Thanks again Roblov! I owe you a beer! (My daughter will be disappointed that she won't inherit this, but my wife will be happy that we don't have to buy another surface)

(By the way, keeps up with 1/8 triangles now up to 130 BPM). I'M FINALLY HAPPY WITH MY PURCHASE!

(Now I need to head over to Pro Tools forums and figure out how to get the HUI mode in PT to move that fast).

Here is a video of the difference:

https://youtu.be/lcrEktttta0

Fader 1 is a triangle automation with S1 standard update rate. Fader 2 is the same automation but with 'fastupdate' enabled. Both faders are playing in sync with fader 3-8.

The faders 3-8 are square wave automation. 1/8ths@150bpm.

roblof wroteHere is a video of the difference:

https://youtu.be/lcrEktttta0

Fader 1 is a triangle automation with S1 standard update rate. Fader 2 is the same automation but with 'fastupdate' enabled. Both faders are playing in sync with fader 3-8.

The faders 3-8 are square wave automation. 1/8ths@150bpm.

Yep, that's about like the results I got with the FP8. A world of difference.

I have the same problem here...
in protools 12

kind of "old 8-bits sample" Stepping data automation,
even if protools try to smooth it the automation that I write was not accurate...
kick down and missing data kind of happen!!!!

it must be a solution
I try to tune fader and adjust the fader touch...
and try everything in protools to smooth and thin the data...

I have the old Faderport at home and I don't have this issue with it...

I haven't set down the road of figuring this out in Pro Tools (yet) - stuck on a S1 project for the meantime. I do hope we can get this solved for PT12 (I do use it a lot for scoring).

I'm gonna have to agree with everything he's said because my experience has been similar, but I believe after trying to switch to studio one from Cubase and logic x that it is a problem with studio one, not the faderport 8 totally. Even using the touch input on my raven mti2 with vca faders is laggy as hell, (maybe linked to the buffer setting?). Use the mouse and the lag is not there. This is not the case with any other daw. Customer service takes 3 to 5 days to respond, so it's a bit hard not to lose your cool on these things. I've spent almost as much time doing support tickets for bugs I've run into as making music this week.
Also, map all your plugins to the faderport, and as soon as your session crashes all your settings are wiped away. Ridiculous. I've only been using it for a week and I'm already pretty disappointed.

To follow up on Roblof and Tyaudronis post for the customer to edit the Controller XML file if they are having an issued with the speed of the faders.

devices/Mackie/Control/MackieShared.surface.xml file for Mackie or
devices/PreSonus/FaderPort\ 8/FP8FaderBank.surface.xml for Faderport 8

with the additional option ", transmit receive fastupdate"

After talking to the developers this undocumented option will increase the fader response rate but should be used with caution as it may affect other response times in your system depending on many variables.

Code: Select all

<ControlSurface>
   <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->
   <!-- CONTROL DEFINITIONS -->
   <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->

   <Controls>
        <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->
        <!-- Faders -->
        <!-- ******************************************************************************************** -->

      <Control name="fader[0]" title="Fader 1" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="0"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[1]" title="Fader 2" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="1"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[2]" title="Fader 3" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="2"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[3]" title="Fader 4" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="3"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[4]" title="Fader 5" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="4"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[5]" title="Fader 6" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="5"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[6]" title="Fader 7" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="6"/> </Control>
      <Control name="fader[7]" title="Fader 8" type="fader" options="transmit receive public, transmit receive fastupdate"> <MidiMessage status="#E0" channel="7"/> </Control>

Thanks