Discuss the new PreSonus CS18Ai
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Hi guys,

I haven't seen anything yet on the forums about anyone else having similar issues, so here's a brief description of the challenges I've been faced with.

My setup:
RM32AI updated to SL 1.0.7049 (purchased mid-year been used for multiple shows - rock solid)
CS18AI updated to 1.0.7055 (updated as soon as it arrived last week).
40m ruggedised ehternet cable direct connection b/w CS and RM
USB dongle removed from CS
USB dongle on RM used to connect to wifi for ipad and PC control (UC Surface)

During testing and pre show programming I had no problems with connections.
However I did notice what seems to be latency in updating fader moves/encoder location. (my guess is the knob locations are read at approx 6Hz, and so moving things quickly results in step changes of level i.e. phones/monitor output level).

Back to the control dropouts...
I had a conference job this weekend with this rig. Sound check went fine with everything working as it should (including ipad control when setting monitor mixes onstage).
Just as show started, it became apparent that the CS was no longer controlling the RM levels etc. Fader locations still updated when changing banks, scribble strips were still showing channel names, but changing fader levels, and fat channel settings did not result in any change to the mix. No signal showing on input meters on CS.
Thankfully I had set up the wifi control which enabled us to monitor and control the RM for the duration of the first show (CS didn't regain control).Interestingly the permissions tab on the CS did not show either of the two ipads we had connected to the RM...
It definitely still had some form of connection, as I was still pulling a monitor out from the CS over the ethernet for recording purposes.
Following the show, I played around with things a bit and found that after a reboot of the surface, it regained control of the RM32. After more testing I was relieved to find that if the ethernet was disconnected or the CS powered off, operation of the RM mixer was unaffacted which allowed for a reboot and regain of control by the CS. That at least allowed me to continue to mix on the ipad while awaiting the 30-50 seconds for a reboot...
During this morning's session the same problem occurred again - the CS dropped control and a disconnect of ethernet, followed by a power off, reconnect, power up was required to get it up again. It's been fine the rest of the day so far, but I'm second guessing it now...

I have not been able to identify a reason that the CS is losing control - I could possibly accept this if I was running full control over wifi, but given that I am direct connected with pro ruggedised ethernet cable (no switch either), I am quite put off by the unstable behaviour I am observing...

It sort of looked like a permissions issue given I was still able to pull audio over the ethernet, but beyond that I am not sure.

If anyone has ideas or similar experiences, can you please share?

Thanks,

Phil
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by basmeijer on Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:33 am
Thanks for the information.
I am just about to order a CS18AI unit and very interested what the cause of this issue will be.
Because I had controlling issues at some venues before with UC Surface on iPads the move towards an CS with wired networking was to be certain that being out of control would centainly NEVER happen.
Not good...

I wonder I the system has some kind of debugging build in if there is no control. If it does not have such, maybe it is a thought of implementing such.

Do other CS owners have a similar experience regarding the post above?
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by Dale Christenson on Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:37 pm
The time I used my CS I did have an issue with it not controlling my RM32. It stopped at some point and I needed to turn a mic on, but it didn't turn on. I had to run to the side of the stage where my RM lived and get the iPad. I didn't think I needed it. It stayed with me the rest of the show.

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Dale Christenson
918.261.7263

StudioLive RM32ai
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by rohanigoe on Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:41 pm
I'm seriously regretting my CS18ai purchase now...

I record and needed rack mounted preamps, PreSonus seemed the way to go on a mid range budget, and they had just brought out the RM32ai.. So I took the plunge and used it with UC Surface for control and recorded to a separate computer.. Then I bought the CS18ai thinking it would be perfect for a fuller control experience, how wrong I was..

I've had so many drop outs with this "desk" it's totally unrealistic for me to use it on a job now.. I'm freelance and can not afford the risk of losing any audio in a record!
The best configuration I can get with less dropouts now is direct connection from the CS to the RM, both dongles removed and no router in use.. Thankfully once the RM is up and running and I'm in record, all good! That's the nuts and bolts of my job, but god there is no way I would trust this on a live gig using any sort of control that PreSonus suggests.. So frustrating when you spend this cash on a system that was never ready for use on the launch date!? I've read so many people on here looking forward to an update to fix all these bugs.. No footswitch use, no Capture control, no ethernet control on StudioOne only wifi dongle... The list goes on!

In short, I'd love it if PreSonus sorted out their house but realistic I'm looking at selling this gear and moving on..

Rohan

StudioLive RM32ai
StudioLive CS18ai
StudioOne 3.1 Professional
UC Surface, and Capture 2
iMac 3.4GHz i7 OS 10.10.5
HP 23' tm Windows 8.1
TP-Link TL-WR1046ND router
iPad with UC Surface
iPhone 6 with Qmix-ai
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by stingray1122 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:01 pm
Thanks for the detailed info. While we did see some control drop outs in the initial beta it appeared most of it was due to issues with a wireless router. That said, since the CS18 was released we've been able to get a more clear picture of what was happening and have a fix being tested now.

In general, the most reliable network configuration is with an AVB switch or direct connect. Even with direct connect, as soon as you introduce the Wi-Fi dongle things could get hairy.

The good news is we've implemented a new IP management system and spent a lot of time working on the networking connectivity and latency across the entire system. This is all being tested now and is scheduled to be released mid December.

The release will include...
CS18AI
    Improved encoder and screen latency
    Improved network performance
    Control Cascaded RM mixers for a total of 64-channels
    Remotely control Capture 2.2
    User assignable Select button colors
    Footswitch functionality enabled
    Lock Main mix to faders enabled
    GEQ to knobs enabled
    New wired IP Address Modes to support Dynamic, Static Self Assigned, and Static Manual Assigned
    Bug fixes

RM Mixers
    Cascading via AVB to create a 64-channel mixer
    Improved network performance
    New wired IP Address Modes to support Dynamic, Static Self Assigned, and Static Manual Assigned
    New AVB Stagebox mode with AI Console mixers to bypass RM mixer DSP and route AI Aux mixes to RM outputs
    Bug fixes

AI Console Mixers
    New wired IP Address Modes to support Dynamic, Static Self Assigned, and Static Manual Assigned
    New AVB Stagebox mode with RM mixers to bypass RM mixer DSP and route AI Aux mixes to RM outputs
    Bug fixes

UC Surface
    Network improvements
    Support for new RM features
    Remotely control Capture 2.2

Capture 2.2
    Support for Cascaded RM mixers
    Support for remote control from UC Surface and CS18AI
    FireWire sync causing network latency resolved

RayT
Sr Product Manager
PreSonus
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by sjc193 on Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:06 pm
This is exciting! Thanks Ray!

Hopefully having Capture control built into UC Surface, I will be less likely to completely forget to hit the record button! I can't tell you how many times that has happened when I had really wished I had hit record, I have dozens of great bands recorded that it starts half way through the show :lol:

Also, hopefully the ethernet latency work done will also help the problem I have been having with my windows PC. I believe that because it is connected to the RM32 using both Ethernet and Firewire, even though I have UC Surface connected to Firewire, it seems the ethernet somehow gets in the way and the mixer starts acting all squirrely, repeating moves I already made (Windows8.1). I could not unplug the ethernet cable from the PC because I need it for RemoteDesktop from FOH computer over Wifi. If this update fixes that issue I will be super duper stoked! Because I will then have Smaart spectragragh from anywhere in the building (via Remote Desktop app from iPad or another computer)

Thanks for giving us all something to look forward to!

Steve

StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram
ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router
IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260
2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's
2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers
4 EV ZLX-12P's, 1 TurboSound iX15, 2 Yamaha S115V's
1 Crest Pro-Lite 7.5 (7500 watts) amp, 2 Behringer EP4000 amps
10 58/57 mics, 1 SM86, 1 sE8, 1 sE2200, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021
1 beta52 kick mic, 2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's, 1 PRO48 DI
2 4Bar lights, 1 4Play, 1 6Spot, 1 fog machine
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by rohanigoe on Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:32 am
Thanks Ray for this promising update!

I know you guys are working hard to solve all these issues and I appreciate this reply.. Looking forward to mid December now!

Thank you

Rohan

StudioLive RM32ai
StudioLive CS18ai
StudioOne 3.1 Professional
UC Surface, and Capture 2
iMac 3.4GHz i7 OS 10.10.5
HP 23' tm Windows 8.1
TP-Link TL-WR1046ND router
iPad with UC Surface
iPhone 6 with Qmix-ai
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by basmeijer on Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:33 pm
Excellent stuff. Thanks for the update, Ray.
In the meantime, another CS is heading towards Holland. 8-)
Looking so much forward to have one in our gear. I trust that all problems get solved.
To be sure I have immediately ordered the MOTU AVB switch and a UPS unit (APC) for the RM, so power is stabilized and continuous. Then planning to connect the WiFi router in the MOTU at the desk.
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by lemixer on Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:02 am
Hello everybody.
Hoping someone here can shed some light on this...

So,

I have the CS18AI, RM32AI, and 2 MacBook Pros.
CS18 connected via Cat6 cable to the RM. All is working fine. However, as soon as I connect Mac via Firewire I'm getting dropouts in Audio. I have them all connected etc before powering up. It's works fine sometimes, but then the dropouts start, about every 5 seconds, but as soon as I disconnect the Mac (Firewire) all is fine again. I'm hoping this will be sorted.

I want to have the CS18 and a Mac at FOH, and the RM and a Mac on stage for monitors.
I'll be going with an AVB switch eventually , but surely my current setup of just 1 Mac should be working fine.

All Firmware and Software is up to date as far as I'm aware.

Also I notice in UC Surface that my faders don't move when I make a change on the CS18 and vice versa.....

Thanks for your time guys ,
Hoping someone can help...

Mike
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by ronron3 on Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:24 am
I also have dropouts , I use wifi control only. After about one hour my cs18ai can't control the rm32ai and studio one anymore , allthough it is still seems to be connected . Only solution is restart the cs18ai . Any word on the mid - december update ?
User avatar
by jesseelpers on Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:38 am
Afternoon all, hoping I'm preaching to the choir at this point:

I am checking to see if these updates discussed and issues seen in Q3/Q4 of 2015 have been resolved. I have an RM32 setup and am hoping to expand it's use with the CS18, but don't want to throw the dime at it unless it will serve well. What's the word on recent use?
User avatar
by lancelyons on Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:05 pm
I do not run the configuration discussed but it is a good reference point.

I have a MOTU AVB switch and a wireless router (Netgear N600) added to the configuration discussed along with a fairly fast PC. I do not use a USB wireless device on either unit. The router, CS18ai, and RM32ai each plug into one of the AVB ports. I set the system up so the wireless router hands out the IP address. The RM32ai, MOTU AVB switch and wireless router are in a road case on stage. The CS18ai is connected via 100' long CAT5 cable. By the way, the AVB switch is well worth the price paid for a talk back connection between mix position and the talent, AND to connect a back ground music source at the CS18ai position in my humble opinion.

We have had this system out in the wild now for 3 months - not a drop out between the CS, PC and RM unit. There is a very slight mechanical delay for the faders.. To give you an idea, using 'one thousand one, one thousand two' as a count reference, I can only get out a very short w sound - maybe a 10th of a second or less. Pretty fast in my book. .

We also use a few iPAD air 2's, an iPAD mini and a few iPhones on stage. We have had a unresponsive screen from time to time out of the iPAD air 2's. All of them are set NOT to sleep - thats important, the connection between the wireless router and the Apple devices drop at sleep - and of course, the device is rendered useless until wireless connection is re-established and UC surface restarted. Thats a PICNIC - problem in chair, not in computer if you will.

We have had a random case of an Apple device droping. Random meaning 1 time in 20 performances. When it happens, we check if the wireless connection on the iPad is still up and if so, restart UC surface. I really SUSPECT its because of the lower quality wireless router - I have seen a few compaints about having more than one iPad up on this router. I will be changing that out in the near future. I want to emphasize that the CS stays up rock solid - AND - the problem is rare enough not to be bothered by it. Since the mix position is mission critical in my case, I won't consider a wireless USB device. Besides, the AVB audio stream between the CS and RM unit cannot work through a wireless connection - it requires the switch and cable connectivity.

That's my experience. I am a happy camper with this configuration and well pleased with the purchase decision.

Very best regards

.
Last edited by lancelyons on Thu Jul 28, 2016 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CS18ai, RM32ai+ MOTU AVB switch, MOTU 1248 AVB
DAWs - Sonar Platinum, Studio One
PC - home built
WIN 10
Intel i7- 6700K
Gigabyte Z170 UD5
Thunderbolt, USB C, Ethernet AVB ready, Firewire 400 and 800
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by lancelyons on Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:19 pm
Sorry - slight hookup change. The PC in my case connects via firewire to the RM32ai.

Take care..

L

CS18ai, RM32ai+ MOTU AVB switch, MOTU 1248 AVB
DAWs - Sonar Platinum, Studio One
PC - home built
WIN 10
Intel i7- 6700K
Gigabyte Z170 UD5
Thunderbolt, USB C, Ethernet AVB ready, Firewire 400 and 800
32 gig Corsair DDR4
2 HD, 1 TB each
27" PLANAR touch screen
Buncha WAVES V9.2 64bit
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by basmeijer on Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:55 am
jesseelpers wroteAfternoon all, hoping I'm preaching to the choir at this point:

I am checking to see if these updates discussed and issues seen in Q3/Q4 of 2015 have been resolved. I have an RM32 setup and am hoping to expand it's use with the CS18, but don't want to throw the dime at it unless it will serve well. What's the word on recent use?

Hey Jesse,
The wired connection between the CS and the RM is (perhaps near) rocksolid. I had some very little glitches in the past but never during a show, in rare cases the connection between the devices had some bootup issues but that was already that long ago that this ciuld have been resolved in the meantime by a software update.
I just came back from a festival in Sweden for a week, while the RM was on at all times and the central station, the CS was sometimes turned off at nighttime. Everytime the equipment was working great.

I definitely recommend a fixed IP configuration in the RM/RMs and CS, this way you are assured of a good connection, no matter in which order you switch on the network components.

Prepare to order a Motu AVB switch as well if you want wireless control on top of the wired connection(s). Be sure to update the switch firmware too! Which can be a bit time consuming as I experienced this was not that easy. I had a glitch with the switch once. Again not at a gig, but it made me change the way it was completely build in and to make the RM ethernet connections accessable at all times by a 19" ethercon patch panel.

A bit of topic but what I must report is that there are some things still not fixed in the CS firmware that apparrently takes a loooooooooong time to fix by PreSonus or the software company involved. If you go this route you have to take some extensive waiting time in consideration when you run into an issue. This is no different with some other manufacturers of various equipment, audio or non-audio. Perhaps it is a good plan to do some intensive testing after receiving the CS unit within the returnment period, if any applies.
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by michaelnicoloff on Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:35 am
I seem to have the dropout issue:
My setup as follows:
Rm32ai static ip connected directly to motion AVB switch
Cs18ai static ip Connected directly to motion AVB switch
Mac mini static ip directly connected to AVB switch and FireWire to rm32ai for control/spectrum etc
Wireless router setup for dhcp for iPad devices connection to Ethernet port on motion AVB switch
It disconnected twice during a live show
Rebooted the cs18 and recovered each time??
Latest edition firmware on both??
Any suggestions?
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by michaelnicoloff on Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:02 am
FYI. MOTU AVB switch. Not motion. Damn spellcheck
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by wahlerstudios on Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:46 pm
May I ask, "it" means the CS18...?

As far as I know if the CS18 disconnected and it needed a reboot, it should not reconnect automatically. I am not too familiar with problems of the CS/RM system yet, but isn't it so that the UCNET-button has to be used after restart to etablish a connection again? This is just a question. It probably doesn't lead to an answer, but who knows...

Another question: Why do you use an AVB connection to the Mac mini? It gets audio through the FireWire connection and UC Surface is also fully handled by FireWire, so why does the Mac mini need AVB? For Capture remote it may make sense to let the Mac mini join the WLAN, but you will see the conflicts of two "sources" of control. I don't know if this can make a CS18 disconnect, but maybe it's worth to check. There should also be no WiFi dongles involved, but I think that is self-evident.

Last question: When the CS18 disconnected, you could still control your RM via iPad? Did audio work without interruption?

Hopefully we can find the reason for the disconnecting.

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 3* 16M | SW5E

Apple routers | iPads | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 5.1.2 & Pro 3.5.6
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by bubbaguth on Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:55 am
Not sure why if your router is configured for DHCP, why you would then assign static addresses to your RM, CS18, etc. and just let them get addresses from DHCP server as well. As you sit now, you should be ok as long as your DHCP range is out of the range that your statically assigned addresses are. If they aren't, I could see the potential of IP conflicts (duplicates) which could certainly cause issues you are describing.

Also, we are assuming that your assigned IP's are within and assigned the same subnet/gateway as your DHCP server is configured to do...if this isn't right, it's not going to work properly.

Again, I go back to, what is your reason for assigning static IP's to these devices? Unless you have a specific reason, it's just another thing that makes your environment more unnecessarily complicated.

RM32AI, RM16AI, CS18AI, SL16, 32R, NSB 16.8, 328AI, 18sAI
MOTO AVB and 5WSE Switch
NowSonic Stage Router Pro
Microsoft Surface Pro
Apple iPad Pro
Macbook Pro
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by brucefreeman on Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:06 pm
Last night I experience several failures with the CS18/RM32 combination that you describe. I have had my setup for several months and have probably done a dozen gigs without a single burp until last night.

I am using DHCP on all devices. Twice the CS18 had to be rebooted to regain control. I also noticed several times over the course of the evening when the metering on the CS18 would drop out. Another aggravation was at times I would make small adjustments to faders and then they would jump back to the earlier setting. I feel this was due to network issues instead of the CS failing.

I have a couple of weeks before my next gig. In this time I figured I would be sure all my firmware on both sides is current. I'll confirm the Motu Switch is also current. It seems that there are some updates from reading around this forum. I may replace the 100' network cable that I use for my "snake." But i am open to any other suggestions as to ways to figure out what is happening.
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by wahlerstudios on Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:00 pm
Which router are you using?
What kind of IP addresses are used?
Did you let the router boot fully before starting RM and SL?
Did an iPad or computer stay connected while the CS disconnected?
There were no WiFi dongles involved?
Does a shorter CAT5 cable help?

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 3* 16M | SW5E

Apple routers | iPads | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 5.1.2 & Pro 3.5.6

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