StudioLive RM32Ai and RM16Ai Mixers & UC Surface with QMix Ai
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I must be missing something. I've been through tutorials and videos and the forums and STILL can't seem to get what I want. Here's the goal:

Cakewalk by Bandlab, using SL32R as an interface, but not in interface mode. I want to be able to set up stereo busses to send stereo headphones mixes from the DAW to my 4 Earmix units on the AVB network.

I can't seem to figure out how to get my stereo bus outs from Cakewalk connected to the Earmix AVB channels for stereo use. Something within the 32R isn't allowing these connections. What am I missing?
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by wahlerstudios on Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:55 am
I have no idea how Cakewalk is using and handling the USB matrix, but I know Studio One and I would use the input and output routing provided by the song templates. With the StudioLive 32 Session template as starting point, I would add four stereo outputs (41+42, 43+44, 45+46, 47+48) and name them EarMix 1, EarMix 2, EarMix 3 and EarMix 4. Then I would add the four outputs to "Sends". Studio One allows me to control level and pan per send. The screenshot shows that I have an incoming signal (radio via Internet), which is processed in the "mix(er)" and sent to the outputs, So far, so easy. ;-)

Now comes the StudioLive mixer and the Earmix 16Ms. There are exactly three stereo input channels, which accept USB as input source: Aux In 1, Aux In 2 and Tape In. So all I have to do is to select USB as input source and the individual USB sends, which is USB 41+42 for Aux In 1, USB 43+44 for Aux In 2 and USB 45+46 for Tape In. Accordingly I set the AVB output sends to AVB 41, 42+43 and 44+45 and bank 1 of the EarMix to AVB 41-48.

But that's three cue mixes, not four. I used one of the "fixed" subgroups (A+B) for the fourth return, because subgroups A-D also have USB as input options.

I hope this can help a little bit. I don't know anything about Calkwalk and its USB options, so there might be other ways to organize the mixes. I'm just asking myself why you try to go this rather complicated way. Wouldn't it be easier to use the 16 flex mixes (8 stereo) of the rack mixer and send them to the EarMixers?

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4EarMix_800.jpg
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by huggy59 on Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:29 pm
Thanks much, wahlerstudios, this helps a bit. I think my problem is I don't have a handle on what the various channels are on the 32R UC, such as you outline about 41+42 being Aux1, etc. I have tried a bunch of combos but nothing seems to work.

In Cakewalk, I see and can assign 64 channels of I/O in mixer mode. Above the standard 32 for the inputs, I don't know what each channel actually is or how they map to the actual 32R channels - hardware or software. In particular, I don't know how to send my stereo bus signal on Ch63/64 to the Earmix channels 3/4. As you said, maybe I have to use Aux channels? Is there a way to map what Cakewalk sees as 64 channels to what the 32R uses, and how do I route those to the Earmix channels? I think this is all in UC...

CW 32R outputs.png
Last edited by huggy59 on Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by huggy59 on Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:37 pm
PS. I want to use my Cakewalk bus sends as mixes for the various headphone channels so I can group all instruments pre-mixed into a stereo channel, such as the 12+ drum mics, or 5 backing vox tracks. I don't want to have to bounce back and forth between UC mixer and Cakewalk during sessions. The 32R is a rack unit, so no actual mixer controls to touch - it all has to be done in software.
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by wahlerstudios on Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:03 pm
As I said, on the StudioLive side you will need input channels with USB as input source option. The Series III mixers have this option for mono input channels 1-32 and stereo input channels 33-38, which is somehow limiting. By default all StudioLive mixers use a 40x40 USB matrix only. By default all StudioLive mixers use a 40x40 USB matrix only. The flex mixes have AVB as input options, but not USB. If you want t know more about default routing settings, check section 14.2.4 USB Sends of the "StudioLive Series III Owner’s Manual" (consoles). Unfortunately the rack mixer owners manual does not have this section.

"I don't know how to send my stereo bus signal on Ch63/64 to the Earmix channels 3/4. As you said, maybe I have to use Aux channels?"

This would be the Studio One/StudioLive routing, maybe the Cakewalk routing is similar. Check that the bus is routed to USB outputs 63+64 of the DAW. In the StudioLive mixer, set USB input of Aux In 1 to USB 63+64. Route AVB output left of Aux In 1 to AVB 51 and output right to AVB 52. Then set AVB bank 1 of the EarMix to AVB Send 49-56 and bank 2 to AVB Sends 57-64 (see screenshot). Now DAW USB output channels 63+64 are routed to EarMix channels 3+4. If you're using audio of the rack mixer, mute Aux In 1 or unroute Aux In 1 from Main L/R. Or don't use the fader.

Attachments
63_64_EarMix.jpg
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by wahlerstudios on Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:10 pm
The EarMixers have 16 input channels, so you can feed them with 8 stereo mixes. Or a mix of mono and stereo channels, if Cakewalk allows this (Studio One does). What would be "your" channels 1-16 on the EarMixer?
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by SwitchBack on Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:44 pm
Inside the 32R the digital sends on input channels and on output buses are always before the digital returns. So the mixer can send a channel’s analog input via USB or AVB to the computer and then take a return (AVB or USB) from the computer to that same mixer channel. Or the mixer can send the output signal from a mix bus via USB or AVB to the computer and then take a return (AVB in normal mode or USB in interface mode) from the computer to that same mixer bus output.
This also means that the only way to get DAW outputs via USB to AVB outputs on the 32R (and from there to EarMixes) is by setting mixer input channels to USB input and then use the mixer to route those signals to the mixer’s (AVB outputs on the) mix buses. Even in interface mode a USB signal from the computer to a mixer aux output will be inserted after the aux bus AVB send and won’t be available for the EarMixes.
The only other (and better) option is to install an AVB/AVDECC compatible Ethernet card and turn your computer into an AVB endpoint so the DAW outputs can go straight onto the AVB network, available to the 32R and to all the EarMixes.
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by huggy59 on Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:59 pm
Thanks, SwitchBack, that is my problem. I thought the 32R would allow me to have better routing options from my DAW to AVB devices. Not so. Looks like I'll have to do the monitor mixes from the mixer. Maybe I should get a real mixer instead of the 32R.

SwitchBack wroteThis also means that the only way to get DAW outputs via USB to AVB outputs on the 32R (and from there to EarMixes) is by setting mixer input channels to USB input and then use the mixer to route those signals to the mixer’s (AVB outputs on the) mix buses. Even in interface mode a USB signal from the computer to a mixer aux output will be inserted after the aux bus AVB send and won’t be available for the EarMixes.


Your suggestion to get an AVB card in my PC is a good one, but I don't see enough technical info about them to even determine if it will work with my systems, or if I want to spend that kind of cash. It's kind of discouraging that the Presonus AVB ecosystem is hobbled this way.
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by SwitchBack on Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:21 pm
Regarding the digital sends and returns there's no difference between the rack mixers and the console mixers, so the same limitations apply.

I'm on Mac which gives me (some) native AVB compatibility. It also means that I'm not in a good position to advise on how to turn a Windows computer into an AVB endpoint. But others on this forum may have done it so why not start a thread asking how to do it? :)

PS. This thread seems to be in the wrong subforum (for AI rack mixers). Maybe the moderators can move it to the Series III subforum.
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by wahlerstudios on Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:47 pm
I don't think that using the mixers I/O for digital signals is a limitation. Three stereo inputs are not luxuriant, but you can use all (!) input channels and the 16+4 subgroups for routing signals. I did not describe this, because it's difficult to understand, especially if you haven't worked with digital matrices of a mixer. There really is a 64x64 AVB matrice, 64x64 USB matrice and a 34x34 SD matrice and you can literally route anything anywhere.

For four submixes I would use the stereo inputs and one subgroup, because it's easy to configure. For more input signals and mixes I would use the input channels and flex mix outputs. IMHO, cue mixes are absolutely cumbersome. Using the mixers mix features is much easier and faster. Not to forget remote control via tablet or smartphone...

Send tracks 1-32 to channels 1-32 and feed the EarMixers with stems (flex mixes) and direct signals. You can also add effects and functional signals (ambience, talkback etc.). Easy to handle and good to control. Create projects with scene(s) to recall session settings. Feed the EarMixers with signals and let the musicians control their own mix. That's what the personal mixers were invented for. ;-)
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by SwitchBack on Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:45 pm
Ah, I missed that. Thanks :thumbup:

When the input of a mixer channel is set to network or in this case USB and the Digital Send Source is set to digital then the channel's (USB) input signal should be available for an AVB send. That Digital Send Source option is not visible/available when the channel's input is still set to analog.

So you still have to route the computer's USB outputs to mixer inputs, but with the input's digital send source then set to digital you can patch the inputs straight to AVB sends. Cool :)
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by huggy59 on Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:53 pm
Hmmm... In a recording session I may have 14 mics on the drums coming into the 32R analog, passing via USB to my DAW. You're saying set up a mix in the 32R to send via AVB to the Earmix, right? I need to dig into UC and the 32R mix systems more, I guess. I don't see where to do that. Tutorial somewhere?
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by SwitchBack on Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:14 am
With drums I would definitely do the mixing inside the mixer, because involving a computer will add latency, which can be annoying especially with percussive style instruments.

Your best resource is the UC Surface Software Reference Manual. We had a few app updates since the manual was written but most of it is still 100% valid.

I did a quick search for video’s but couldn’t find one explaining the basics of setting up mixes, maybe because it’s so straightforward. So I suggest you go through the manual with UC Surface at hand. Should be quick to grasp the basics.
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by huggy59 on Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:06 am
Thanks very much, both of you.

FWIW, Cakewalk compensates for latency internally, both automatically and with manual settings, so that is less of an issue when tracking and overdubbing. The nice thing about using the DAW is that I can add subtle effects, such as reverb, to the vocals for tracking without adding too much latency. Many artists seem to like this in their headphone mix, and since I can do it in the DAW, I don't have to manage it in UC/32R (2 places) or other external effects units (3 places). Just looking for a smoother workflow, easier setup, good templating. Call me lazy! ;-)
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by SwitchBack on Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:48 am
Latency compensation works great for recording but not for monitor mixes.

Latency is the time it takes a signal to pass through interfaces, drivers, buffers and converters. So when you hit say a snare it takes time for that transient to get converted to digital, get through the USB handling process, get buffered and processed by the interface's driver, then get EQed and mixed in the DAW with the other drum mics and maybe some previously recorded tracks, then follow the same route back through the driver, the USB handling and the D/A-conversion before it finally comes out of your headphones. Latency compensation can shift live recordings relative to previously recorded tracks to compensate for the delayed arrival of the real time audio in the DAW but it won't make the time from A/D to D/A-converter shorter. The headphone mix will always have the full round-trip latency delay.

So 32R to the rescue: By mixing inside the mixer the real time audio still goes to the DAW for latency compensated recording but also takes the 'shortcut' through the mixer's mix engine for a much faster return to the headphones. That's a win-win. And the 32R has its own 4 separate effects engines with a choice of nice user configurable effects processors for each of these, so that base is covered too.

Read through the UC Surface manual for all the details. On the inside the 32R is (nearly) the same mixer as the 32-channel console version, complete with all the processing that mixer offers. :)
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by huggy59 on Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:43 am
Exactly why I went with the 32R and Earmixes.
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:43 pm
Reading the manual is always a good thing and the PreSonus manuals are of good quality, but unfortunately the rack mixer manual is missing content like (StudioLive Series III Owner’s Manual) section 14.2 "Default Routing", explaining the Analog, AVB, USB and SD Card routing.

It's quite probable that things start looking really complicated, therefore I would like to add three screenshots showing how easy it is to set up the EarMixers. The first screenshot shows the for you probably most important page of UC Surface. Studio work means that it is needed to switch input sources quite often. This is possible per channel (-> settings), but you can also do it on this page. It takes about 12,7 seconds or so to change the input source of 32 channels from Analog to USB... (or vice versa) ;-) You select the "Source Type" and then click on the channels to which you want to assign this Source Type.

A very helpful feature, saving a lot of time and you always SEE the input source of any input and output (yes, output can also have different inputs).

Attachments
source_routing.jpg
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:44 pm
Screenshot 2 shows a flex mix layout with EarMixers in mind. The first channel bank (1-8) of the EarMixers would be filled with stereo mixes, channels 9-12 would see single mixes, channels 13+14 would be used for "Miscellaneous" and channels 15+16 would carry anything related to "Studio" like Talkback, rough mixes, click... As you can see in the "Routing" tab, AVB outputs of aux "Drums" are set to 41 (left) and 42 (right). This is default routinng of the Series III mixers. You don't need to assign anything. It's already there, so use it!

Accordingly Aux 15+16 are assigned to AVB Sends 55+56 and "Voc 1" (Aux 9) is assigned to AVB Send 49. Aux 1-8 use AVB 41-48 and Aux 9-16 use AVB 49-56. AVB 59-64 is "free" (not used by default settings).

Linked flex mixes do NOT pan signals, linked input channels are set to "center". You have to set panning individually PER CHANNEL.

Attachments
aux_earmix.jpg
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Jul 31, 2021 2:44 pm
Screenshot 3 shows how the EarMixers connect and all you have to do is to select the correct AVB Sends, which is 41-48 for "1-8 Source" and 49-56 for "9-16 Source" aka EarMix input channels 1-8 and 9-16. Then hit "Apply" or "Apply All" if there are several EarMixers connected. You can daisy-chain several EarMixers by CAT5e/CAT6/CAT6A cables. You don't necessarily need a SW5E AVB Switch.

The input channels of all connected EarMixers will now have the drums stereo mix on channels 1+2 (link needed), bass stereo mix on channels 3+4, keys stereo mix on channels 5+6 ... and the Studio stereo mix on channels 15+16.

Attachments
earmix_avb.jpg
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by huggy59 on Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:27 pm
Excellent, wahlerstudios, that helps immensely - thank you! That missing section of the manual (also noted above) was the critical info I needed to understand. FWIW, on my 32R, there are no default flex mix channel assignments as you describe. I had to set them all up from scratch. But it's coming together now.

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