StudioLive RM32Ai and RM16Ai Mixers & UC Surface with QMix Ai
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Hi everyone, I want to take a moment to share a few things that will hopefully answer some questions you may have.
What's up with the updates for the RM and CS18? We have an update that's been waiting in the wings but it can't be released due to some bugs. The short story is we implemented some new things, fixed a bunch of stuff, and in the process some things broke. Due to resource and project conflicts, we haven't been able to complete those fixes to release the update. Basically, the work took longer than planned/scheduled and we ran out of time and had to make the hard decision to wait on this release so we wouldn't miss other deadlines and commitments. We have been continuing to finish up the work squeezing in time on it when we can. We'll soon be at a place where we can go back to dedicating full resources to getting this update out. This update will fix the bugs with cascaded RM mixers, add the go remote functionality for Smaart, add the select sync functionality with UC Surface, and a couple other smaller items. This also won't be the last update for the RM and CS18. We're in the process of planning and scheduling another update to come after this one. Will AVB be updated on the AI/RM mixers? The AVB implementation on the StudioLive AI platform (AI console and RM/RML rack mixers) does not include the full 1722.1 implementation required for interoperability with other AVB devices. The chipset used was developed by a third-party provider using the 1722 specification before the clocking requirements were ratified in 1722.1. The supplier of this solution never completed the 1722.1 implementation before their development was suspended. After researching and trying several methods to complete the implementation, we’ve been unable to solve this issue. AVB networking on the AI platform will continue to work as a solution for connecting an AI console with an RM/RML rack mixer as a stage box, as well as cascading two RM/RML mixers to create a 64-channel system. Interoperability beyond this, such as use with Apple computers or third party AVB products, will not be possible unless you are using Series III mixers with our new AVB solutions. Will we ever see MIDI implemented on the RM mixers? This has been a hot topic around the office. We've made some progress in Engineering on the back end infrastructure needed to support this. There's still some work to do. I've learned the hard way not to make promises or provide date estimates so I'll just leave it at this is something we want to deliver for you. With the new rack mixers announced, is PreSonus done with the RM mixers? No, we are not done with the RM mixers. The new rack mixers are a necessary part of the Series III platform and ecosystem. The RM mixers are still being sold and supported. We still have updates planned for the RM mixers. |
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Hi Ray,
Thanks for the update. It's good to hear that the fixes are still in the pipeline but you won't be surprised that some of us who have jumped on board with the CS18 and RM concept feel more than a bit bruised, especially with shiny new toys coming out under the Series 3 banner that look like they do pretty much what I'd been hoping for when I bought CS and RM(s). I appreciate that you won't want to say much about the direction of travel for this product range and I recognise that you are trying to instill some degree of confidence that there is a direction of travel, but this needs action rather than words. The new products may attract some crossover customers, but many of us who are deeply invested in CS/RM won't just shell out a load of money to get on the new horse - we can't. But we do need some confidence that there is a healthy future for our investments (which in my case is barely 2 years old). Could Presonus please re-issue a flightplan for the product(s), taking out the things that just won't happen and mapping out those that will? I just don't know where Presonus are going with this any more. Specific dates are not necessary, but a vision is. If I have to dump CS and RM and do something different I want to be able to plan for it. That might be Series 3 - if the delivery/capability matches the brochure - but I'd rather stick with a supported and delivered CS & RM ecosystem. |
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I'm really hoping that the lag over firewire for UC 2.x and an RM32 is one of the things being fixed in the new update. Any word on that issue? It's stated right in the release notes. . .
Thanks! Steve
StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260 2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's 2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers 4 EV ZLX-12P's, 1 TurboSound iX15, 2 Yamaha S115V's 1 Crest Pro-Lite 7.5 (7500 watts) amp, 2 Behringer EP4000 amps 10 58/57 mics, 1 SM86, 1 sE8, 1 sE2200, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021 1 beta52 kick mic, 2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's, 1 PRO48 DI 2 4Bar lights, 1 4Play, 1 6Spot, 1 fog machine |
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Steve : Just tried 2.3 with firewire connected , still the same lag
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Issues since the release of UC Surface 2.0 on February 2, 2017:
● Control and metering on UC Surface instance connected via Firewire may exhibit lag on some systems ● Copy, Delete, & Rename Local Scenes for Cascaded mixers not functioning as expected ● RM/RML: Fat Channel Reset Button Does Not Reset the HPF (or LPF) ● RM/RML: FX issues with Cascaded RM/RML mixers ● AI/RM/Studio Interfaces: FX Preset list does not update automatically when selecting FX Busses ● AI/RM Mixers: FX Bus Master is missing HPF control ● AI/RM Mixers: Restoring a Mixer Backup over Firewire is not possible. ● AI/RM Mixers: Auxiliary Firewire Input 52 driver label is incorrect (excerpt from Universal Control 2.3 Milestone Release Notes, September 26, 2017) |
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There is one thing I really don't understand.
The RM mixers are just digital mixers that don't have any digital I/O until you put the default Firewire/AVB card in the slot at their back. It has no firewire or AVB or Dante or whatever until you put an EXTENSION CARD for that. Which means that the chipsets that were made for those purpose are on the extension cards, right? And so the chipsets for firewire and AVB are on the Firewire/AVB extension card, right? So, why doesn't Presonus make a new AVB card with the 1772.1 specifications???? -RM users that need AVB recording capabilities would be able to have that new card, end of story! Why? Because you wouldn't be able to use the CS18? -When you use a Dante card to record over network to a computer, you can't either use the CS18! So, it wouldn't change anything for users that record over network. So why? Because the SL III does AVB recording, and they want to sell more of them instead, for that matter? -I think that's the true reason. Come on Presonus! don't tell us bleep about this, a new AVB card with the 1772.1 specifications is hugely possible and feasible! Ok, you don't want to make it anyway because users that need recording over network should go and buy a Dante card (and go figure too btw?) So what about the deal about the Dante cards for RM users? You owe them that at least, don't you think?.... |
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That's what I've thought too. Why not just an updated avb card. If it takes the shackles off the RM series, it's worth it to me. Loss of the inputs and phone jack on the CS could easily be made up with a rm16 on the network at FOH... And some clever routing.
I'm still pleased, but I would like better routing options without having to go to Dante. |
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New AVB card would mean:-
You would lose the audio connection to the CS18 but gain audio transport to a mac. Add the existing Dante card and you :- Lose the audio connection to the CS18 but gain audio transport to a mac.... and to a PC.... and to every other Dante device that has ever been made by hundreds of manufacturers. So there's genuinely nothing to gain by creating a new AVB card for RM as you can already do the same and more with the existing Dante. Yes, I know you technically can't cascade 2 RM's with Dante, but that is just a firmware update away.. (Just after sync select with CS`18 and the Midi ports being enabled)
Karyn
------------------------------------------------------- SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante. Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport, Sonar Platinum, Studio One. http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn Dante Level2 certified. |
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When the new rack mixers are available next month or so, buyers have the choice to get a "better" product for less money. Therefore the market will give one answer to the questions here. In one year RM mixers and CS 18 controller will not be visable any more, which means that nobody buys these products, even though officially they still might be available. The other answer will come from PreSonus itself. When a company has a "better" replacement for a product and a new family of products, it makes no sense to develop "old" products further. A few updates and finishes will come to keep the interest in the products up for a while (how many RM/CS units are already produced and waiting to be sold?), but nothing that needs a lot of effort and investment.
The "go remote functionality for Smaart" and "select sync functionality with UC" will be major updates to the RM/CS family, improving the workflow and offering even more flexibility. I would not need a second RM mixer at FOH, if an iPad or two could do the job. Live recording is not that important to me any more, all I want is UC Surface and Smaart at FOH. Cascading via Dante? Cool...! I know that this was part of the original concept (the legendary/visionary RM_Applications_10-3-14_jn08_4WEB.pdf), but since then I have always seen this vision reduced to the sentence "cascading of RM mixers is possible via AVB only". Is it really "coming soon"...?  |
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Unless they get spectrometers working on every PEQ and GEQ in UCS for the new rack mixers, then I don't see them as better than the RM, that and that the RM does 96K, it's a downgrade reflecting the price.
Sorry, once I started using the spectrometers at FOH for every show, I just simply can't live without them any more. . . please correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the series III has them. Steve
StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260 2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's 2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers 4 EV ZLX-12P's, 1 TurboSound iX15, 2 Yamaha S115V's 1 Crest Pro-Lite 7.5 (7500 watts) amp, 2 Behringer EP4000 amps 10 58/57 mics, 1 SM86, 1 sE8, 1 sE2200, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021 1 beta52 kick mic, 2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's, 1 PRO48 DI 2 4Bar lights, 1 4Play, 1 6Spot, 1 fog machine |
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To me a new option card with a usb port would be very nice , so I can finally get rid of my old firewire pc's . With every new windows update ( now from version 1607 to 1703) it is getting more difficult to keep them running due to all kind of drivers that are not updated for a century or so .Avb on the CS18AI is not that important to me : I barely use it . The headphone output on the CS does not have enough juice when mixing in a loud environment, that leaves the inputs which I occasionally use for break music. Needless to say I expected more of it when I bought it 2 years back for 2200 euro....
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http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global/en/products/mixers/ls9/features.jsp#dante
This is the Yamaha LS9. Introduced in 2008. It is around TEN years old. The SL32 series 3 looks like it could have been a direct copy of the LS9... iPad control for stage mix, digital stage boxes, very similar layout (screen with encoders, iPad space, etc) Except... The LS9 is 10 years old and not only works with "current" Yamaha products (Rio3224 stage boxes) it is and was bottom of the Yamaha range (PM5D and MC7L pre-date it) and STILL outperforms the SL32 series 3. 64 channels + 4 Stereo, Dante, Ethersound, Madi, Soundgrid + more option cards. Midi, USB, OFF LINE EDITOR, still in current Yamaha catalogue shown integrated with their latest products. There is no excuse for abandoning "old" products. The AI/RM series is half finished and yet product development is focused in the Series 3. Ray said they "ran out of time" with the latest update so we have to wait until they go back to it again... Even PreSonus admit that the AI/RM series is better than the Series 3 for many uses. 96k and cascading to 64 channels are the first things that come to mind that the Series 3 can not do and never will. How many Windows updates have there been since 2008? Yamaha update everything each time a new version requires it yet PreSonus can't seem to update their own software without breaking something (FireWire) when there hasn't even been an OS update... Yes, it's unfortunate that their AVB supplier messed up and left them with a "broken" product, but that doesn't stop them from completing the Dante option which works perfectly fine. Direct access to the Mix and Main outputs and head amp control are all that is required to call it "complete", although there are then several options that could be added to improve functionality further. I didn't intend this to turn into a rant, just to give some idea of what the "competition" has been doing for years for those that don't use this stuff every day... So why don't I just get a Yamaha? I'm looking at the QL5, but I like my RM32 and I want to use it as a stage box as I should be able to..
Karyn
------------------------------------------------------- SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante. Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport, Sonar Platinum, Studio One. http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn Dante Level2 certified. |
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When PreSonus introduced their very first "small-format digital mixer" (SL 16) in 2009, I was wondering how a company, dealing with musician's toys, will stand the test of time in a totally different market, the audio world. The SL mixers became popular because of innovative ideas (iPad remote control, Capture recording) and the fact that the mixer was affordable. The SL 24 completed the SL 16 - and then came the SL 32, but it used a totally different technology. Some of us will still remember this video, which was a "game changer" (I think the term was not introduced to the audio market at that time...): https://www.presonus.com/videos/player/291/default/0#PreSonus-LIVEThe-StudioLive-AI-Launch (starting at 37:39). Suddenly there was a whole new family of SL mixers available. The future looked bright, if you decided to buy the new products...
A few years later the SL consoles were completed by rack mixers/digital stageboxes and even a dedicated controller, but again there was a "roadblock" and again a new SL and RM family was introduced. The products (mixers) made in Baton Rouge have not really stood the test of time and who knows what will happen with the latest and greatest. The LS9 is a product reflecting a company's long-term strategy and its integrity, which is needed to survive in the "Pro Audio" market. A product cycle of 8 to 10 years allows a return on investment, in lower price ranges 5 to 6 years are acceptable. But not 2 or 3 years. "Abandoning old products" is indeed a big theme. I do remember how this was handled with the SL mixers first generation. There was one minor update one year later, and two or three OS adaptions of UC Control/Surface. A "minor update" would not be enough for the AI family. Expecially the RM/CS products have been culpable neglected. I do have the impression that things will be handled better this time, but I do not expect so much "finishing" any more. When you introduce a new product (family), you have to deliver with no ifs and buts. Again... - I am happy with my stuff, especially now with the integration of Studio One as the "second heart". It's nice to hear how good the modeled equalizers and compressors of the new Fat Channel sound on the RM mixers. I am starting to enjoy using plug-ins...  |
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Hello,
is it a future plan to develop a new CS Controler for the new series III Rackmixer? In some Installsheets I see a Cat Cable for Audio (AVB) and one for control. With the Ai Series I can patch the Router to the AVB Switch for Wireless Control. Do I need a second Network at the series III Mixers for Control? Michael |
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Having the control network and audio network on separate connections is actually relatively standard. It allows you to direct connect the stagebox to mixer and mixer to router without using any extra switches and minimises audio dropout risk by dedicating a separate network for it.
Karyn
------------------------------------------------------- SL32ai, RM32ai, SL328AI x2, SL18sAI x2, all Dante. Studio 192, Digimax FS, Faderport, Sonar Platinum, Studio One. http://refer.waves.com/dzDVn Dante Level2 certified. |
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Here is a very interesting question about remote control of the Series III rack mixers:
http://answers.presonus.com/21184/series-console-control-series-mixer-wirelessly-wifi-router Can a SL Series III Console control a Series III Rack Mixer wirelessly via a WiFi router? asked Oct 1 in StudioLive Series III by adminloyolasmc In some cases I need to remotely control a rack mixer with physical controls instead of touch screen, but I cannot run a hard wire connection. Can a Studio Live 16 Series III console control a Series III 32 Rack Mixer via WiFi if both control ports are connected to the same WiFi network? I know audio cannot be passed, but what about control? I think this is really a GOOD question and an anwer will shed some light on the future of the Series III and AI families. Connected with this question is the Studio One implementation, which will be available shortly before Christmas (this year...). If the Series III consoles can handle Studio One better than the CS18AI, but have no remote control for the rack mixers, there definitely is "space" for a dedicated Series III rack mixer controller. |
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Or a CS18AI firmware update.... UC Surface , Capture and Studio One can be controlled with both AI and series 3 models , so why can't the CS do both models ? I'm no programmer , but apart from some hardware limitations ( some functions probably won't have a dedicated button ) I would think it's doable . They are all connected with UCnet , which are wrapped midi commands , right ?
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And here is the answer already:
answered Oct 2 by Michael Martin Series 3 consoles do not have the ability to 'control' a Series 3 Rack mixer via network. Only Tablet or computers running UC Surface can control the console or rack mixers when ran as stand-alone devices. |
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Strange , isn't it ?
They're all presonus equipment, all have UC control abilities but they are not compatible with each other |
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So for me this is a problem with confidence.
I bought into the Presonus story at the end of last year and in to the expandability and connectivity of AI. To get started I got an RML16 and then added the CS18 and was planning to add another RML16 when I had the money / need or upgrade to the RML32 and cascade and then maybe to upgrade the cs18 later. I get that they had an issue with the AVB chip supplier and that they were on the cutting edge; this happens. I also get that they want to develop a great new product. But to leave out compatibility is madness. I love my gear and hove thrown myself into the Presonus world with the RML16, CS18 and Studio one, etc. but now I am stuck. I could live with the RML issue and replace with the S3 32R but, sorry, they don't not support AI so no CS18. I could buy into the S3 24 channel desk, but no support for my RML. So I have gone from fan boy, wanting to spend more and more money to being stuck, in less than 10 months. My only option to get out is to sell up and if I stay with Presonus, spend another £4-5K. The question for me is, even if I did this, where would that put me? When will S4 come out and stuff me again? What do I trust now? I believed all of the hype before. Do Presonus not understand that this is not just hurting a few people but their brand. I have a friend who is looking for a new live desk asked me about my gear the other day, remarked that the new mixer looked great and would I recommend Presonus. I had to say; "Great gear but poor promises". I do not understand the intricacies of the technical situation, but is it really impossible to make a new card and also support the CS18 with AI? Come on Presonus, you have a lot of people who don't want to be upset with you and can be brought back to being great brand ambassadors if you just think about this a bit. |
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