Yes, this is possible, but the mixers need to be cascaded (AVB). You need to route the stagebox channels (Slave) of the "big" 64 channel mixer to FOH (Master). This gives you separate and independent processing for 32 + 32 channels, just the 16 Aux/Subs and 4 FX mixes are shared. This is the procedure:

* Cascade both mixers (RM on stage should be "Slave", feeding channels 33 to 64 to the "big" mixer; RM at FOH with channels 1 to 32 should be "Master")

* Route channels 33-64 further to channels 1-32 by selecting "network" as inputs of channels 1-32; now channel 33 will send its signal to channel 1, channel 34 to channel 2, and so on

* Deselect "Main" as routing target for channels 33 to 64 in order not to send the input signals to FOH mix; you can still use the faders for post-fade mixing

Now channels 33-64 are reserved exclusively for the 16 monitor mixes. You can also let the FOH mixer be "Slave", because it doesn't matter where channels (input and outputs) are located in an AVB network. This will make QMix and iPad control easier, because the monitor section of the virtual mixer starts with channel 1 and not with channel 33...

If you are using a CS18AI and its AVB features, channels 31+32 and 63+64 are occupied for AVB audio. It is possible to use up to three CS18AI in one AVB network, if two of them are only used as controllers with no AVB audio. There can be up to 14 "controlling devices" in a network.

The "big" mixer always has 64 virtual channels, but if you cascade RM32 and RM16, you get 48 physical inputs. I am using the RM16 as "Slave" simply because I need all outputs on stage and not at FOH. But I can still use any physical input or output channel at FOH, if I need or want to. The RM/CS system is very, very flexible. If you want to use all 64 input channels, put both RM mixers on stage and cascade them.

The question about the plugins is a very interesting one. I am working on this theme at the moment - especially the integration of Studio One (with its own and external plugins) in a live situation. I have to say that things look much better than I ever thought. But I have not finished my studies yet...

If you have time wait for the new PreSonus AVB switch. It has an internal power supply.

Thank you for your reply. That's pretty much how I thought it was. It looks like you must cascade the mixers to get network input. The idea was to try to use the network audio without cascading, to allow for basically mirroring the inputs from the stage. I know some of the really expensive systems can do that, but I'm plenty happy with what I have.

I'm glad that more than one CS18 can be used.. that will be useful.

What you want to do at the moment (sharing inputs and outputs on network) can be acchieved by a Dante network. For that you need to buy two Dante option cards for your mixers. This also allows recording to a DAW. Capture is not designed to work in a network.

BUT... - Dante does not allow cascading mixers (64 channels) and you can use a CS18AI only like an iPad, which means "simple" remote control. The CS18AI will loose all audio features. Additonally Dante does not allow the integration of Studio One into the workflow, neither on the CS18AI nor on iPad (Studio One Remote) or computer. All features of "Active Integration" get lost with Dante.

You should be aware that RM mixers are cascaded via AVB, while SL AI mixers are cascaded via FireWire. Also keep in mind that PreSonus has restricted Dante and AVB networking to 48 kHz. 96 kHz is only possible via FireWire (RMAI and SLAI mixers only).

You can also use two CS18AI as FOH and monitor "mixers" with one single RM on stage, if you want to work the tradtional way...

wahlerstudios wrote. Additonally Dante does not allow the integration of Studio One into the workflow, neither on the CS18AI nor on iPad (Studio One Remote) or computer. All features of "Active Integration" get lost with Dante.

I don't understand what you're saying here... Studio One works beautifully with a Dante connection and allows inserting FX into individual channels as well as recording/playback...
What features of "Active Integration" are you referring to?

I meant the very special "world" you can discover when by pressing the DAW button on a CS18AI. This is more than the activation of the transport buttons on the CS18AI or the integration of Studio One Remote (iPad). The CS18AI becomes a totally different machine! It's really fun to change parameters of Studio One plugins with CS18AI encoders or activate or deactivate them on the screen of a CS18AI by a simple touch...

I am discovering this "world" at the moment and I am really fascinated about the deep integration of Studio One into the RM ecosystem, which was one of the goals of "Active Integration" at its time. "AI" was based on FireWire and didn't really consider network connectivity. As far as I know it is not possible to control Studio One by the encoders, buttons and faders of a CS18AI in a Dante network.

For me it's all about workflow in live situations, not studio work. Using Studio One as integrated sound processing (including recording) on my RM mixers will open new horizons for me. I really like the workflow of the CS18AI controller, making it very easy to integrate DAW processing into a live mix.

All that AVB does is allow the 4 inputs and headphone output on the CS18 to work, nothing more. It's a just audio transport.

Where you're getting confused is with the term "transport". In this context it is the computer term meaning transporting data from one place to another, not the audio term as used in old tape recorders for the stop, play, pause, etc buttons....

Also, you must stop thinking of "Dante" as being some magical type of networking which stops other network functions from working. I've said this in many other posts to many other people. There is NO SUCH THING as a Dante Network. Where you see the term used it is simply describing ANY network that has Dante devices on it, specifically where the ONLY devices are Dante devices. Any other case is just "a network" that happens to include devices that use Dante.

Everything you described regarding Studio One will still work if you have a Dante card in your RM. In fact it will work better because you get full multichannel audio over the network directly to/from Studio One. No FireWire required... Again, the only thing you lose is the audio in the CS18.

No, I am not talking about the audio features of AVB and the term "transport" comes from the description in the Owners Manual (section 4.5). Transport really means "Return to Zero", "Stop", "Play" and "Record" plus options via the Control and Option buttons on the CS18AI. Section 4 of the Owners Manual "Controlling Studio One" is short, but really worth reading. Some of the special menues are shown, also the UCNET Remote window, which has a key-function in the workflow.

What I am talking about is the extensive integration of Studio One with the CS18AI, which is in detail described in this post: https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?f=233&t=22273 ("CS 18 Integration with Studio One as of 11/2016"). All these features of Studio One are connected to encoders, buttons and faders of the CS18AI and accessible by simply pressing the DAW button while mixing a concert...

There is a illustrated description in the CS18AI Owners manual section 2.3.5 "AVB Networking", showing where the mixer and the software (Studio One) appear on the touch screen after presing the UCNET button. I have nowhere found a description how this works with Dante, but if you say that this also works with Dante, then I will be happy to hear it. Dante is some kind of mystery to me, I have to admit...

I am always interested to learn something new. I would like to be able to see how things look with Dante to broaden my horizon.

This is the direct link to the manual: https://www-media-presonus.netdna-ssl.com/downloads/products/pdf/CS18AI_OwnersManual_EN_V2_03032017.pdf.

Dante is just an audio transport protocol over ethernet. Ucnet is just another protocol over ethernet. Avb is a little bit special but in the end yet another protocol over ethernet.

All of them can co-exist over the same ethernet connection, even though in general I wouldn't run both dante and avb over the same ethernet connection.

wahlerstudios wroteDante is some kind of mystery to me, I have to admit...

Lets see if I can make this as simple as possible....

Dante is the name given to a product created and sold by Audinate. In its simplest form it is a small chip that manufacturers can incorporate in their own products either directly, or indirectly via an option card. The chip provides everything to send multi channel digital audio over standard Ethernet.

Connecting a Dante device to a network is no different to connecting a printer or network storage device or a PlayStation. It's just another device using the network to send data to other devices. Other devices are not affected in any way. Dante devices do not take over a network.

Connecting a Dante device to a network does not affect any other network devices or operations in any way, so UC Surface will still control your AI console and Studio One will still be controlled by your CS18 and your bass player will still be able to browse facebook (if he can remember his password...)

So why Dante? The simple answer is that Audinate have done 99% of the work, which is what they are charging for. As an equipment manufacturer you buy a box of chips from Audinate that have everything required for digital audio over networks already built in. This is a simplified explanation of course, but the point is that every piece of equipment with a Dante chip will talk to any other piece of equipment on the same network because Audinate made it so.

So what is AVB? AVB is a specification published by the IEEE that suggests how they think digital audio should be passed over a network. Manufactures using the AVB "standard" can choose to implement all, some, or none of it and change it in any way that suits them at the time. AVB specifies a clocking scheme that relies on protocols that are not part of accepted standard Ethernet, thus any switches and network interfaces must have special firmware to pass these data packets. The reliance on special hardware is where AVB falls down. While Apple have included AVB compliant network chips in their Ethernet interfaces for a few years now, no other manufacturer uses them. So it is simply not possible to use AVB audio in a Windows laptop and there's only 1 third party card I know of for Windows desktop computers.

But ultimately, regardless of whether you're using Dante or AVB, it is ONLY for passing digital audio from one device to another. All control information, UC Surface, Studio One integration, Room Control (great app), etc, ALL use normal Ethernet and continue to work regardless of the audio.

This has been really helpful everybody. So, on either, the audio is streamed over the network. With multichannel networks, each channel has its own stream? In the presonus world, when you switch a console to network input, it looks on the network for that specific channel if it is streaming?

If that is the case, then audio should be able to be used on two mixers with one being the source, and the other having network input. As I understand from the info above, it would simply be a one-to-one relationship.

Does that sound about right?

Yes and no...

I can't speak for series 3 as I've no experience with it, but in the AI series AVB is a fixed 1 to 1 routing so channel 3 in your RM (as a stage box) transmits to channel 3 in your console and it can't be changed.

However, Dante uses an external routing matrix (Dante Controller) so any channel can go anywhere...

Dante isn't single streams (but it can be if you force it to) but rather multiplexed/interleaved streams. If the streams weren't interleaved the audio latency would become very big, especially in high channel count scenarios.

I had high hopes for avb initially, but nowadays dante/aes67 is the major standard. Even macos high sierra seems to have issues with avb currently. There is something called st2110 that has something to do with ravenna/aes67 but I currently know too little about it for now.

"UC Surface will still control your AI console and Studio One will still be controlled by your CS18".

@Karyn: Thanks for being so polite with "simple" = stupid musicians , who do not understand basic IT principles... Your lines have made me rethink what I thought up to now and indeed, I missed one important point: The "world" that opens up when I press the DAW button on the CS18AI has nothing to do with Dante or AVB. All this is based on network functionality. Actually this video starts with explaining the basics:

"PreSonus LIVE—Using the StudioLive CS18AI With Studio One 3"
https://www.presonus.com/videos/player# ... udio-One-3

Between 0:30 and 1:50 they talk about 3 ways to connect Studio One and CS18:

1) direct connection
2) router and/or switch
3) WiFi dongle

So far, so good, but what is missing here and in the whole video, is one very important information, which I think has misled my thoughts: Nothing works without a FireWire connection between a RM AI or SL AI mixer and the computer running Studio One! Therefore the "getting started" needs to completed:

1) AUDIO & UC SURFACE
FireWire connection between computer and mixer (UC Surface is a functionality handled by the mixer via FireWire or wired/wireless network)

2) CONTROL/REMOTE CONTROL
a) router directly connected to mixer
b) mixer, controller and router connected to a switch
c) controller connected via WifFi dongle

Now I understand that the DAW button and the transport buttons only and exclusively use network connections, which indeed have nothing to to with Dante or AVB. So, what does Dante do then? Which options do I have with Dante if I am using PreSonus gear only?

I am using AVB, which gives me these options:

1) cascading of two RM mixers, expanding the system up to 64 input and 16+3 output channels
2) recording/playback of 64 tracks via Capture or Studio One
3) internal routing of 32 channels between Master (FOH & FireWire) and Slave (digital stagebox on stage)
4) 4 audio channels + stereo headphone channel for CS18AI @ FOH

I really would like to see this list being completed with features offered by Dante. I am not talking about technical aspects and future developments (AVB hardware, AVB II, aes97 etc.). I want to know more about the ADDITIONAL FEATURES DANTE OR AVB OFFER FOR THE USER TODAY. What can we do with the gear we have...?!

And again, my focus is not studio work, only live work. I know what AVB can do for me. What would be "better" if I use Dante?

And again, my focus is not studio work, only live work. I know what AVB can do for me. What would be "better" if I use Dante?

No need for special network switches.
You can connect two dante devices without using a switch in between.
Flexible routing.
You can use Mac or Windows for recording/playback not using firewire.
Interoperability with other dante equipment, supported by more than 200 manufacturers.
Slave to external clock.
Using dante you can convert between different audio protocols like cobranet, aes50, adat, madi, etc using simple hardware.
Virtual audio soundcards for Mac and PC.
Aes67/Livewire/Ravenna compatible

Just to mention a few...

Everything mentioned above.. Plus..

Digital inserts in your RM with your laptop AT FOH.
Use RM as stage box for AI console and ALSO have digital inserts at FOH (or anywhere for that matter)
Use the mic input on your laptop at FOH as talkback (with Dante Via)
Send the main output from you AI console directly to your AI speakers without going back to the RM as a stage box.

When my full rig is set up the only analogue cables are the mic cables from stage to RM and the monitor cables from RM to stage monitors. Everything else is Cat5. RM32, SL32, 2x 328, 2x 18s, 2x laptop, McMini. Dante is used to route audio from anywhere to anywhere else....

When you say " Nothing works without a FireWire connection between a RM AI or SL AI mixer and the computer running Studio One!" that isn't exactly true either...
Firewire is needed for two (2) things only. They are:-

1) SMAART in UC Surface. SMAART is not free software, the version we get in UC Surface is locked down to only work with our RMs or AI consoles. How is it locked down? By requiring the audio feed comes from the Firestudio (old name) audio driver. In other words, you must connect your RM or console using FireWire to pass the audio. If UC Surface was opened up to get audio from Dante (or any other audio driver in your system) then you could connect ANY audio source and PreSonus would have broken the licensing terms...
Workaround : Buy your own licence for SMAART and get the full version with all the toys (doesn't work within UC Surface, but does more...)

2) Capture. Capture is an old program with only a handful of incremental updates since the first version supplied with the classic StudioLive series. It relies on UC Surface supplying the audio driver (Firestudio again...) and would need a major re-write to work without it.
Workaround : Waves Tracks Live.

Studio One DOES NOT require FireWire. If all you have is the default AVB card in your RM and you want to use Studio One then you have no choice but to use FireWire, but that because AI series AVB doesn't work. Studio One works perfectly well with Dante.

And one major thing.

Dante supports redundancy using two ethernet ports so if one network path goes down the other one takes over without any user interaction. Dante also handles if the master clock goes down while avb doesn't handle this.

If you don't need redundancy the second ethernet port can act as a network switch and may completely eliminate any need for an external switch.

roblof wroteIf you don't need redundancy the second ethernet port can act as a network switch and may completely eliminate any need for an external switch.

But not in the Presonus option cards

Ouch... You're saying that this option is grayed out in the dante controller?

Karyn wrote

roblof wroteIf you don't need redundancy the second ethernet port can act as a network switch and may completely eliminate any need for an external switch.

But not in the Presonus option cards