sad to hear the bad news about AVB.
But Thanks a lot for the clear, honest explanation.
ist is better to work with this knowing, instead of being left in promises.
will hire a demo RM16 tomorrow!
Nowsonic stage router
mac book pro 2009
db technologies DVX 10(2x), DVX8(4x)
db technologies S08(2x)
I really like the idea wahlerstdios. I wonder though, why fire wire? I suspect it would be less costly to implement, that's OK - BUT..
1 - USB C \ Thunderbolt moves the product forward and the research \ design can be moved into other products in the future.
2 - USB C \ Thunderbolt is supported by both Apple and Microsoft OS.
Thunderbolt also will help (with the extra bandwidth) to have many other products attached and transmitting in the AVB stream.
If this 'switch' or black box was designed with the intent to allow discovery and co-existence of other manufactures products - it would be a VERY WELCOME addition to me. I am not so enticed\concerned about the endpoint into the PC \ DAW \ Show controller being AVB as I am all other upstream hardware connectivity and device inter operation requirements.
Indeed, good job wahlerstudios coming up with a convertor pic and idea like this...
Excellent suggestion, wahlerstudios, the request for such a device is highly supported by me.
However, I would like to see some more things in this AVB bridge unit. And I would wish that PreSonus has already started to design this, because if they still have to start it could take a while before such a device would reach the market.
I would like to see the following connections on this bridge unit:
4-5 AVB enabled ports for all AVB equiped PreSonus products - if this would be possible with the new AVB chipsets, to be downwards compatible with the SL/RM Ai series. Else just dedicated for SL/RM Ai series only. Ports with Ethercon connections. AVB switch build inside. The 5th port in case no analog connections.
2 FireWire800 ports that allow control and recording.
1 USB 2.0/3.0 B port that allows control and recording.
1 USB 2.0/3.0 port for firmware updates
1 USB C port? (to be even more future proof)
1 SD card slot for direct on-device multitrack recording
1 AES/EBU in port
1 AES/EBU out port
4 Analog XLR/Jack combo inputs (mic and line level)
4 Analog XLR outputs
1 Bluetooth 4.1 wireless stereo port
1 IEC power connector
Analog out connections need to be assignable to L/R/Mono/Any of the Mix outs (alternatively extra Mix outputs).
Analog in connections need to be assignable to any of the inputs (alternatively extra inputs).
A bridge unit like this, obviously based on the new technology in the SL III series, could perfectly fill the gap for the current SL/RM Ai configuration owners that want full connectivity, to make the current Ai series future-proof and will certainly lift the SL/RM Ai series to a more professional level (despite 96 kHz, the least important feature for me as 24 bits is already hires enough for my scope of work).
The unit could be placed at FOH but could be very useful on stage as well from time to time, e.g. in situations where it is important to connect with AES/EBU.
At FOH the 4-5 AVB enabled ethernet ports would cover the following real life situation:
- Snake to stage with single RM or AVB switch with multiple RMs, a WiFi router, touchscreen PC with UC Surface etc.
- WiFi router at FOH
- CS18Ai or similar control surface at FOH
- (Touchscreen) PC or Mac with UC Surface (and optionally capable to record over AVB if the new chipsets appear to have downwards-compatible properties)
- RM at FOH in case analog connections would be skipped
With all inputs as described above I would pay at least $700 for it.
The "AVB downwards compatibility" thing could be a illusion but at least this is what I definitely would like to see...
basmeijer wroteExcellent suggestion, wahlerstudios, the request for such a device is highly supported by me.
This sort of device would solve all of my problems too. I could put RM32AI at the end of cat 5 at stage end, CS18 at the other end at FOH, firewire to MBP recording to Capture at FOH. Goodbye analogue snake without having to buy a 2nd RM with recording taking place where I can keep an eye on it (and use UC on MBP to do housekeeping on the CS18 like renaming channels etc which isn't possible without a lot of walking if the MBP and CS18 are at different ends of the venue!)
roblof wroteDante does not provide support for control info. However, control info may co-exist on the same network as the dante streams.
Dante works on a regular network and can run alongside control, video and regular network traffic like file sharing, e-mail and web browsing. With Dante, having a dedicated network for your rig is not necessary, especially for permanent installations, however most would agree that it is recommended. There are security measures in place like device lock to ensure someone on a open network doesn't tamper with your audio routing.
basmeijer wroteExcellent suggestion, wahlerstudios, the request for such a device is highly supported by me.
"I agree...the only thing I would like to see is to double up on the USB 2/3 B ports for control and recording. While I'm sure firewire was/is good, it's becoming almost impossible to find (at least I'm having trouble with my new laptops, etc.). I, too, would be willing to purchase such a device...though I'd be happier to see it in the $500 range."
I have also been a longtime Presonus advocate. I retooled my entire studio specifically for my purchase of the CS18ai and the RM32ai. AVB was the top criterion used for the purchase. It's not a small shortfall. The product was advertised, manufactured and purchase with AVB as the core capability. After patiently waiting on Presonus to deliver as advertised I can no longer return or exchange the product. If you can't provide AVB then its your obligation to provide Dante or exchange these mixers/CS for something that will.
Midas M32, Presonus RM32AI, CS18AI, HS-60, Eureka, DigiMax D8, Faderport, Focusrite Saffire 56, BBX 882, Lexicon MX200, MOTU AVB switch, IConfigMIDI4+,SSL Duende. Yamaha/Rokit mons, JBL10 sub
Shure 57, 520D, e609, Rode NT1A, AKG414, 214, AT2020, EV RE20
Guitars by Martin, Gibson, Fender, Collings, Tobias
Mesa Mk V head/cab, Cab Clone, Fender Twin/Deluxe Reverb, Hartke 4.5, Axe-FX II XL, Digitech GNX4
I've been following this quietly as the issues have been passionately presented.
as Wahler earmarked me, I'm in the saddest group. LOL
RM32AI & CS18.
I fear the release of RM32 Series III (which is the next logical step)
Then we will all be "legacy" equipment owners.
With or without workaround "blackbox" avb solution.
As it feels like we are all negotiating from a shallow grave,
I would much prefer something like a "Customer Loyalty" discount toward the
new engine and chassis.
I have one of the first 24.4.2 "Classics" LOL in mothballs and
virtually worthless on the used market. (but still an awesome little board!)
The AI's obviously left it in the dust, So based on AVB and Dante being suppported,
I felt pretty safe. . . . and made the leap to the "NEW GIRL FRIEND"
... we just know that the "old girl friends" don't get much attention!
The lack of MIDI implementation is ridiculous. What is this 1981? The only reason to dismiss this VERY simple protocol is to restrict the control surface choice to the CS18...a blatant money grab. The upcoming features listed in the OP (preamp levels and scene recalls) are pretty weak. It never occurred to me when I saw MIDI ports in the RM brochure that they would be nonfunctional. Once I saw the cost of the CS it became crystal clear. Had I realized this obvious manipulation I would never have purchased my RM32...but I guess they knew that so they chucked on some fake MIDI ports. Sickening.
I am not using any MIDI functionality, so I wanted to know what this is all about. For the SL 16.0.2 it says: "Use a MIDI footpedal or DAW to recall scenes using MIDI Program Changes, control the main output volume and effects level, mute effects between songs, switch from lots of reverb to a little bit of delay, and change the mix for a solo. You can even automate these features with a DAW!" Probably this is kind of standard nowadays, which actually was not at all possible in 1981. In that time NOBODY thought of using MIDI for anything else than keyboards...
"Not implemented yet" is still the statement on the product pages of RM/RML 32 and 16, so there is no lack of information and it has NEVER been a need to buy a CS18AI. The purest and easiest way to use a RM/RML rackmixer is to connect it to a router. An iPad gives you any control you need. The CS18AI is a controller for one rackmixer in a direct connection or two rackmixers in a network setting as well as a controller for Studio One. It does not have any MIDI functionality, because anything you want or need to control is available on a fader, a button, an encoder or on the touch screen.
The RM mixer were introduced in September 2014. The implementation of Dante and AVB has already taken quite some time, so 3 years for the MIDI implementation indeed is a too long time, especially when somebody has bought the board with a "future update" in mind.
Never buy anything if it does not deliver what you need. You cannot really count on "future updates".
Is is possible for the updated AVB implementation to be added to a new interface card? The early product literature mentioned the possibility of future upgrade cards (like Thunderbolt). I know it is wishful thinking, since I'm sure PreSonus would rather have everyone buy new mixers, but is it technically possible?
I'm not sure how I feel about all of this. Right now, I'm not using AVB or Dante, but I was sort of counting on AVB to be a firewire replacement (instead of the multi-dongle 'chain' I have going on now). Alternatively, Thunderbolt 3 over USB-C would be a great interface card.
It's too bad possible expansions for these RM mixers were never made available. I have no reason to want another mixer except for the lack of a modern interface (which would have been addressed with the original promise of AVB).
This is my first major PreSonus purchase. I'm not sure I'll stick with them or jump to another manufacturer. I don't expect PreSonus to update the RM32 for 20 years or anything, but this thing is only a few years old. I agree that, in lieu of an interface card that gives us other options, there should be a sizable discount on the next gen RM mixer (due to the AVB mess). If not...fool me twice? Nope.
donaldbowsher wroteIs is possible for the updated AVB implementation to be added to a new interface card? The early product literature mentioned the possibility of future upgrade cards (like Thunderbolt). I know it is wishful thinking, since I'm sure PreSonus would rather have everyone buy new mixers, but is it technically possible?
I would have rather see a more modular approach were you could update the digital-mixer part completely. The preamp-part with all the great sounding discrete-design class-A preamps and their digital control, and perhaps even the A/D part could stay the same.
Now it looks like the whole current RM thing is obsolete within the same period of time like, say, an iPhone. The iPhone 4S, which is still a great phone and I still use it with much pleasure day after day, is regarding the outside hardware a perfect phone regarding size, durability of the tough (I believe) titanuim-allow frame, screen, audio output. I would have rather upgraded the camera, the CPU and the memory that to look for a complete replacement.
Last edited by basmeijer on Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
The thing is that there are things that are not clear about the intentions of Presonus.
Kerifis, you are not the first to propose help for this AVB issue, but Presonus never answered to these kind of suggestions, and it's a behaviour that I don't understand.
Secondly, If the AVB feature is a roadblock that can't be fixed, then why don't they take in consideration the users suggestions as a compensation (like free Dante card or whatever), and mostly, THEY should find a compensation on THEIR end very quickly since this issue is old enough now.
I feel like Presonus is letting time go by to make the RM series really obsolete so that they will answer that the RM mixers are too old now to receive an update since its a legacy mixer.
Just my feelings.
Hello everyone, I have some updates on the progress we've been making.
Engineering is doing a deeper dive into the AI/RM AVB code to see if they can fix the problem that prevents it from working with a Mac computer, Series III mixers, and 3rd party devices. Unfortunately no new news yet other than the commitment to dig deeper and keep trying. Unfortunately there's nothing in the AVB code that could be outsourced with any sort of SDK. The company that made the chips and code was bought and the new owners have stopped supporting them and will not release the source code.
There is a possibility of doing some "bridge" devices similar to what has been suggested here. I can't speak to exactly what they may look like and include yet but as things progress I'll keep you in the loop.
We're also planning to offer some promotions on Dante option cards for those who can address their needs by going that route. I'm trying to finalize those deals now so we can roll them out ASAP. Once they are rolled out, registered users will get an email about it and I'll also post it here.
We now have this work scoped for the engineering implementation side and in a release plan. I don't have an exact date I can share yet as the testing side of the work still needs to be scoped and I want to avoid continuing to make promises until we know more.
This implementation is underway and it's scheduled to be released to the public at the end of April.
Here are the AI/RM items on the list to be addressed in the release at the end of April.
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