StudioLive RM32Ai and RM16Ai Mixers & UC Surface with QMix Ai
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denisrandrianasolo wrote"... I want a more slimline approach building on the capability that was described for the future..."
Ok Phil, so when you want something that was described for the future, your claim is valuable,
but when others legitimately do the same you call it moaning?
AVB and MIDI implementation were written in the manual to be brought in a near future, so it's not because you don't need it that it makes your claims valuable and others look like moaning.
You're talking to grown men that make music for their living...


You've misunderstood me. I agree with all of the completely legitimate points made by others about the roadmap and, for the record, I also produce live music for a living. But I also understand the predicament from the Presonus perspective. I love the kit and expect Presonus to find a way to resolve the issue so all of us can do what we expected to be able to do. I'm 'not moaning' just means that I'm prepared to give Presonus the time to resolve it before I review whether or not I migrate to another solution. Sorry if I gave you the impression that I was accusing anyone of being unreasonable.

CS18, RM32, RM32, HP4, ERIS 5, MOTU AVB SWITCH
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by gppresonus on Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:19 am
Hi Ray
Happy new year - it seems the "battle-ready" hardware is leaving a few scars!
As more users move to Dante can you confirm;
* that next Capture update will enable Dante?
* Next UC update will enable Smaart over Dante?
* RM's using Dante will be able to operate at 88.1 and 96khz?
* Is the MIDI implementation firmware planned for early in 2017?
* MIDI will allow simple functions like controlling effects with a MIDI controller?
Hope to hear more from you soon,
Gary
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by markgreiner on Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:37 am
Wow. I was just about to take the plunge and convert from MOTU to PreSonus. So this post is very timely, although is needs to be made MUCH more prominently on the PreSonus website. Unlike others who have legitimate gripes with the functional impact regarding their current equipment, in my case, this is a true lost-sale (at least for now) for PreSonus. Seriously, PreSonus, you can't continue to have promises on you site that AVB recording is coming to the RM-AI series. You need to scrub your site of those statements right now. I've practically lived on the website the last four weeks as I was making the decision to purchase the RML32AI, and I'm just seeing this post now.

But I'm not giving up, yet. A quick question since I already own the MOTU AVB switch on MOTU Monitor 8 (which I use to record from the Monitor 8 through the AVB switch to a Mac Mini).

Since the MOTU AVB switch works with the RM32AI for cascading, does that mean I could feed the Monitor 8 through the AVB switch from the RM32AI, and then record out from the Monitor 8 from the USB to the Mac?

1. Yes
2. Maybe, don't know, or
3. No

Thanks

Mark Greiner

Mark
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by wahlerstudios on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:48 am
3. No

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by wahlerstudios on Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:18 am
You asked for a short answer... ;-) I think the problem is that everybody considers AVB as a "cheap" alternative to Dante. AVB is not a standard as Dante is, connecting "any" enabled device to be part of the netwok. AVB can only connect dedicated hardware. Therefore MOTU machines can only "talk" to MOTU machines (not necessarily all...) - and this is the same with any manufacturer . The MOTU AVB switch is indeed more "universal". Whatever it does, PreSonus has adopted this switch for their AI series of boards, instead of developing an own switch. BUT - and this shows the problems of any "AVB implementation": the StudioLive series II (AI) and series III can not talk to each other, even though they use AVB. There are two different versions ("generations") of AVB involved, that are not compatible. PreSonus calls this now "ecosystems", which is a good description of the present situation of AVB. You can only work with the equipment of "ecosystem 1". There is no connection possible to "ecosystem II"... :thumbdown:

If you need to network devices and can not live with the ecosystem, that your manufacturer offers, there is not really an alternative to Dante.

Just my 2 Euro cent.

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by markgreiner on Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:25 am
wahlerstudios wroteYou asked for a short answer... ;-) I think the problem is that everybody considers AVB as a "cheap" alternative to Dante. AVB is not a standard as Dante is, connecting "any" enabled device to be part of the netwok. AVB can only connect dedicated hardware. Therefore MOTU machines can only "talk" to MOTU machines (not necessarily all...) - and this is the same with any manufacturer . The MOTU AVB switch is indeed more "universal". Whatever it does, PreSonus has adopted this switch for their AI series of boards, instead of developing an own switch. BUT - and this shows the problems of any "AVB implementation": the StudioLive series II (AI) and series III can not talk to each other, even though they use AVB. There are two different versions ("generations") of AVB involved, that are not compatible. PreSonus calls this now "ecosystems", which is a good description of the present situation of AVB. You can only work with the equipment of "ecosystem 1". There is no connection possible to "ecosystem II"... :thumbdown:

If you need to network devices and can not live with the ecosystem, that your manufacturer offers, there is not really an alternative to Dante.

Just my 2 Euro cent.



Your short response was sufficient, but I appreciate your follow-up explanation. Thanks again.

Mark

Mark
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by wahlerstudios on Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:54 am
I am not "Ray" (my beard is not that long), but let me try to answer your questions:

* that next Capture update will enable Dante?
If you are using Dante and therefore do "it" more professional, you will use a DAW of your choice for recording. It looks like Capture will always be a program dedicated to a specific recording situation, which was/is FireWire and SD-card on board now being added. There are programs available, that deliver the same as Capture does.

* Next UC update will enable Smaart over Dante?
The new approach for Smaart is announced for remote control (iPad), but as far as I know Dante can only transport/distribute audio signals. If you want Smaart, use FireWire or WiFi.

* RM's using Dante will be able to operate at 88.1 and 96khz?
PreSonus and all competitors in the low budget range have limited Dante and AVB to 44.1 and 48 kHz. The new SL series III has no Dante at all and AVB is limited to 48 kHz. But it was officially said that the AI boards as single machines will keep their non-network 88.1/96 kHz functionality.

* Is the MIDI implementation firmware planned for early in 2017?
I read "in 2017" and not "early 2017".

* MIDI will allow simple functions like controlling effects with a MIDI controller?
Let the engineers do their work first, then you will see.

Hardy ;-)

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by seanmcdaniel on Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:31 am
tourtelot wroteIs the CS18 NOT Dante capable. Guess they screwed that up too.

Doug


Since the CS18 is mostly a controller it can be used on a Dante network for control without passing any audio from it. So you can get a Dante card in your RM mixer to do FOH recording and external FX like Multi Racks and still control the mixer with the CS
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by seanmcdaniel on Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:43 am
wahlerstudios wrotebut as far as I know Dante can only transport/distribute audio signals. If you want Smaart, use FireWire or WiFi.


Dante can pass control info as well just like using any network connection
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by tourtelot on Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:40 am
[quote="wahlerstudios"
If you are using Dante and therefore do "it" more professional, you will use a DAW of your choice for recording.

* RM's using Dante will be able to operate at 88.1 and 96khz?
PreSonus and all competitors in the low budget range have limited Dante and AVB to 44.1 and 48 kHz. The new SL series III has no Dante at all and AVB is limited to 48 kHz. But it was officially said that the AI boards as single machines will keep their non-network 88.1/96 kHz functionality.
{/quote]

Not true. Capture, for all my griping about Presonus products lately, is absolutely perfect for a hands-off, no-brainer backup recording.

And I take, by your statement about Dante, is that by not enabling Dante at 96k, the Presonus products are not "professional." (I know that's not what you said but I am making a point) Okay, I get that. :) No new professional product should not support Dante at 96k. Thanks to Lynx, Grace, JoeCo, Klark Teknik and others, the way forward is clear. I'd guess that Presonus has come to see it's customer base as non-professional. Too bad.

D,
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by jimripley on Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:10 pm
I know I'm a newbie to all this, but I have an RM32Ai, a CS18Ai, and a MOTO AVB switch...all purchased in 2016 based on assurances from Presonus propaganda and tech support personnel that AVB would provide the ability to record FOH from the "booth" over Cat5/Cat6 networking. Now I'm a bit confused...is the whole AVB thing a completely dead horse, never to strap on a saddle, or is there still hope that there will someday be a solution to this to allow that to happen? (As an aside, I absolutely love my system for live performing...though being able to add some of my favorite plug-ins would be great!) I truly don't want to start from "scratch" again, but would be willing to participate (to some degree) in a solution offered by Presonus to bring the promise to life. And by the way...is there anyone (who really knows answers to these questions) from Presonus actually monitoring this "blog", or is it just us disappointed end users sharing our disappointment and frustration with each other?

Overall, I've been very pleased with my Presonus equipment, but to be promised multiple times and multiple ways that I was on the path to getting everything I was looking for/needings comes as a huge disappointment.

Thanks for letting get that off my chest...I'll be anxious to see what/if anything happens in the "near" future.
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by roblof on Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:09 pm
seanmcdaniel wroteDante can pass control info as well just like using any network connection

Dante does not provide support for control info. However, control info may co-exist on the same network as the dante streams.

This is the same with aes67 as it's only an audio transport protocol. To remedy this aes70 has been created.

iMac late 2015, Behringer X-Touch, X-Touch ONE, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, x32 with Dante/aes67, x32-rack with Dante/aes67, s16 and sd16 stageboxes, p16 monitor system, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Motör 61, BCR-2000, StudioLive 24, FirePod 10, Apogee Ensemble, Alesis HD24, Studio One Pro v4, Notion 6, NI Komplete 11 Ultimate, Halion 6, Nuendo 10, Ableton Live 8 Suite, Reaper 4, misc Line6 gear/software, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Behringer Neutron, Yamaha 02r.....
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:30 pm
@Doug

I also love Capture and I am using it very often. It's so crazy simple and efficient...! I see no need to use StudioOne (or any other DAW) for recording, but what I read in forums also on this side of the Atlantic is that "professionals" like to record in the program, which later will be used to work with the recorded material. Using another software just for recording would disturb the workflow. For the rest of mankind programs like Capture do a phantastic job. PreSonus was the inventor of the "easy multitrack recording", if somebody still remembers...

Of course it is possible to use 96 kHz for recording over Dante network, but PreSonus (and other manufacturers) have decided to not use higher sample rates than 48 kHz, in order to keep the prices of their products at an affordable level. I do see this as some kind of criteria for ProAudio or Homerecording/Musical Instruments, but it doesn't say that recording at 48 kHz is not meeting professional standards. With the PreSonus boards (especially the RM series) recordings indeed have superb quality!

An Audio-CD is still using 44.1 kHz, isn't it...?

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by tourtelot on Sat Jan 07, 2017 1:16 pm
Yes, I get what you are saying. My clients (classical music producers) are demanding hi-res recordings, so it doesn't matter what format they finally release on. They are writing my checks.

Since my actually recording chain has no Presonus gear "in-line," and the SL2442AI is only a monitor mixer for the control room, I intend to work around the 48k issue by feeding the panel analog out of a 96k Dante to analog BoB.

But not being able to have a "complete" network, and although it all works out, and for all the AVB fiasco and for new products that replace current products that don't work together AT ALL, I still contend that Presonus doesn't have it's end users' best interest in mind. Until they do, I can't consider Presonus in the same light of the other "professional" manufacturers.

For what all this is worth.

Doug
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by wahlerstudios on Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:51 pm
I have the impression that, depending on what combination of equipment you are using, things look totally different. The RM family of users is divided into four fractions:

1) the "RM only" users
2) the "CS only" users (StudioOne)
3) the RM & CS users
4) the RM & SL AI users

:+1 Fraction 1 and 4 are the lucky people (I am happy to be part of both fractions...). One RM, one CAT5 cable, one router, one iPad - and you're ready to go! Incredibly simple and effective, a real straight forward solution! The ones who use a single RM or cascaded RMs have a good life. Everything works perfect and now that Smaart is coming to remote control, it can't be more perfect (some more effects maybe...). Fraction 4 is even more happy. The two stagebox modes are incredible flexible in live situations. You even get a full mixer as back-up (RM main mix trough headphone out). And REAL faders...! And recallable preamps! And full remote control! And Smaart! And recording! Both at FOH and on stage...! I have to say that I really enjoy the combination of SL & RM, which lets me use 24 + 8 input channels and 16 + 10 aux mixes. A single CAT5 cable has replaced all my stage snakes and if there would be a wish, I would like to see cascading added to the RMs, to be able to add a "sub-stagebox".

:hunf: Fraction 2 (the DAW people) seem to be totally unhappy. Never enough input channels/faders, never enough physical/visual implementation of S1 to the board - the list is long. I was really impressed when I watched those 2 videos about the integration of CS and S1, but as I'm not into studio work, it's all greek to me. Hopefully the SL III series will serve those people better. I doubt if we will ever see the integration of other DAWs to CS. The footprint of CS simply seems to be too small for studio work. Or the new FaderPort 8 already meets all needs...

:thumbdown: Fraction 3 is the most unhappy one and frustration is indeed obvious. The idea of adding a physical controller to the RM is still fascinating, but the product (CS) is often described as unfinished and therefore limited in its use. Especially the lack of Smaart and recording at FOH makes buying a CS uninteresting. Of course this is not an original task of a "controller", but on the other hand no Smaart at FOH and the need to place the recording computer on stage is simply a no-go. It does not help that remote control for Capture is already available and will come for Smaart (the computer needs to be connected to the RM...). It would be much easier to be able to place a computer next to the CS, connect it and use both as tandem. I would immediately buy a CS18AI, but no Smaart and no recording at FOH makes the CS simply useless for me. I would like to use it with a single RM, because it is not always fun to to mix on glas (open air, summer)...

The CS is a "dead-end street", because it has no option card (or simply more ports). A better connectivity would have made this product more usable. It receives the full AVB signal, but it can't do anything with it. If you unplug the AVB cable and connect it a SLAI (or even RM), you get Smaart and recording right away...! I don't think we will ever see a CS18AI "Mk II", so could there be ideas, how to complete the system?

One idea (and officially supported by PreSonus) is to place the AVB switch at FOH, to make more AVB ports available. This is the solution with a second RM at FOH, taking care for the FireWire jobs (Smaart, Capture). Another idea could be a small footprint "external option card" (instead of a second RM), adding FireWire connectivity. It is of no use to ask for other connectivity or features (USB, HDMI, SD card), because they would not fit into the given technical architecture. A Thunderbolt port could be an alternative to a FireWire port, but I have no idea what solution there could be for PC users, who have no FireWire or Thunderbolt connectivity.

A third idea could be a PreSonus AVB switch. As there is no alternative at all to the MOTU AVB switch, PreSonus could not only fill the gap, but possibly also add more functionality to the switch, like FireWire/Thunderbolt ports. A better solution for the power supply would also be nice. And the price should be user-friendly. It would make sense that the PreSonus AVB switch completes the "SL AI ecosystem". It should be useful in the whole AI family of products and make the use of AVB easier.

I am sure that a self-standing "option card" would make the system RM & CS interesting for more clients, especially the old friends of PreSonus who will NOT invest in the SL III family and want (and need) to work with the equipment they own. I can only talk about the AVB side of things. The Dante friends probably have different thoughts and ideas.

Sorry for the long post. The theme of the thread is "upcoming updates", that Ray Tantzen shared with us. I was dreaming a little bit... ;-)

SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6
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by tourtelot on Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:16 am
Yes, you are absolutely correct. I am not the "typical" Presonus user. I was dreaming a bit too when I bought the SL2442AI. It has the perfect form factor for what I need in a small desk; everything I could want including Dante. Small, light, enough physical faders, and when coupled to the RM16, a perfect way to the stage.

But because, at least at one point, Presonus was catering to the "typical" user, I became painfully aware that they would never spend resources to support Dante at hi-res rates. Not enough of us want that. . .yet!

Currently, with no support of the SL2442AI, the introduction of an entirely new line that has nothing in common with the Series II stuff (how long has that been on the market? Two years?) and the seeming fact that Presonus has no plans to make it possible for those who invested in Series II to re-coupe their losses (what is my SL2442AI worth on the used market at this point, even if I wanted to upgrade?), where are we to turn but a manufacturer who puts their customers' needs more upfront. As well, what about those who invested in AVB (what a disaster that was from the beginning!)?

But I do go on. No more from me about that, I promise. I'll come by from time to time, perhaps to get firmware updates (which I doubt will be forthcoming) or to answer posters' questions base on my current gear. But I will not be buying anymore Presonus stuff, and as soon as something that meets my needs comes to the market, I'll sell my Presonus gear at the market value, take the loss, and learn a lesson.

Best,

Doug
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by ricdonzell on Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:33 pm
Hey Ray...

The staff has been unnervingly quite on this thread.

Is it possible to get a time frame on the RM firmware update?

Can you confirm that the bug will be fixed to where the secondary RM unit in cascade mode will in fact have Fx's functioning?

And would you state what the firmware update will be handling?

Ric
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by Sing4LTS on Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:38 am
ricdonzell wroteHey Ray...

The staff has been unnervingly quite on this thread.

Is it possible to get a time frame on the RM firmware update?

Can you confirm that the bug will be fixed to where the secondary RM unit in cascade mode will in fact have Fx's functioning?

And would you state what the firmware update will be handling?

Ric



Ray said in another thread that most of the staff will be at NAMM all week. He stated that he would be checking in next week with more updates.
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by brianyoung3 on Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:58 pm
As an owner of an RM32, I purchased one a little over a year ago under the assumption that AVB discovery was coming within a month or two. There were other options available that in hindsight I should have gone with. I think it's a good mixer and I have been more than patient in waiting for this feature. Of the many times when I've asked when it was coming, I have been directed towards the Dante card for my needs. The Dante card is a great option if I want to pay the $600 upgrade, but unfortunately I don't really want to shell out that much for something I thought I already paid for, I could have bought a different mixer if I'd known I was going to have to pay another $600. I want the AVB which I paid for, which will allow my RM32 to be networked with other computers and AVB compatible units. I'm hopeful that presonus can get this figured out soon. There are a few options I can see, none of which are great for presonus's bottom line, but more so to save the companies reputation and for customer retention. They could swap our existing AVB cards for new AVB cards with the 'functioning' chipset if possible, or they could sell us the Dante cards at cost, maybe with an exchange of our current AVB cards, or they could just allot the time to figuring out their problems with the current chipset rather than releasing new gear. I'm hopeful for a solution sooner than later.
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by wahlerstudios on Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:09 pm
I wanted to show what I meant with "external option card" for the CS18AI. This device needs to have its own power supply (not external...!) and 1 FireWire port and 2-3 AVB ports. The FireWire port (there must be some transformation happening from AVB to FireWire) is needed for a computer at FOH, serving Smaart and Capture. A second one is probably not needed. I suppose there should be 3 AVB ports:

1) incoming network signal from stage
2) outgoing signal to CS18AI
3) outgoing signal to computer (for the coming recording over AVB).

I am not into technical construction, I'm just evaluating things from the users point of view. We want to get to FOH, what CS does not deliver because it was not designed so. There must be an external "little helper". I would like to see this idea developed and if somebody has a better vision, feel free... ;-)

Hardy

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SL16 | 32R | 16R | 16M

Apple routers | iPads | PreSonus SW5E & Motu AVB switches | Alesis iO Docks | Yamaha S112, S15e, S10e, SM12, SM10 | LD Systems Curv 500 | Galaxy Audio Hot Spots | Mac mini | Lenovo Laptop | Studio One Artist 4.5.4 & Pro 3.5.6

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