Discuss Live Sound Situations here. Product Specific questions or posts may be moved to product centric subforums.
27 postsPage 1 of 2
1, 2
Hello,

First here is the plan: I am going to be using the mixer with a computer running a DAW. Each song will have its own tab or project with multiple tracks. I will trigger movement from project to project, playback, start/stop, etc... from a midi floor board. These tracks will send click tracks to in ear monitors, we will also have a channel setup for vocals with some VST automation to perhaps add a little delay at certain points throughout the song (will just set the track to monitor mode and setup an envelope). We will record ourselves with the click track so I can add the VST envelopes correctly, then I'll just keep all the tracks setup along with the click track but remove wave files and such. I haven't really done this too much but common sense tells me this is the easiest approach in creating the click tracks. Possibly adding some sort of audio queue to our in ear monitors wouldn't be a bad idea either; such as a different pitched metronome 8 beats before a section change within the song. Later adding backing tracks/samples is something we may do as well; perhaps to add an instrument part that we can't play. Would also be recording our live shows as well (Either to keep or critique ourselves... because there's nothing better than listening and having record of every single mistake you made so you can wallow in self pitty for years to come about the fact that you played the #9 on the second half of beat three in measure 142 of the song instead of the major 7th) :cry:

The reason I wanted to add that was:
1. I need a mixer that doubles as a full audio interface, otherwise I can't do what we want with the samples, click tracks, and VST Automation within the DAW and send the processed audio to the mains.
2. I would like full wireless mixing capabilities using a wireless tablet PC and/or ipad (prefer PC but we do have an ipad available)... I do understand that we'll be using two computers: 1 plugged directly into the mixer via firewire or usb and the other running the mixer software (such as UC Surface)

So here is the question!!

1. What mixer under $3000 (and I will consider used prices) doubles as both a mixer and a full multi-track audio interface and has wireless mixing available sounds the best, high quality craftsmanship, and I would be happy with for years to come?

2. What is more reliable: USB or Firewire?

3. Does the RM32r, Yamaha TF series, and Allen and Heath QU series have multi track recording capabilities to pull this off?

4. What order would you rate the pre-amp quality and sound between presonus, Yamaha, and A&H?

5. Are there other brands I should consider, such as soundcraft? (sorry but behringer isn't an option, they may have come leaps and bounds but I have already had too many problems with their products and I am simply never going to own another behringer ... So that one is COMPLETELY out of the realm of what I'll consider)

I bought the RM16ai already, I haven't really used it too much yet, but I am still within return period.

By no means am I thinking that the RM16ai isn't a great mixer; mostly because it looks like it does everything I want it to, the price is right, and I have read great things about it. But this is a question about what if you could do it again with regards to your mixer purchases? I would like to get a mixer that would last and keep me happy for years to come...

If I spend more than I did on the RM16ai, that can be made up for in the fact that I have a mixer that I don't feel like I'll want to replace later on.

I do understand that I am asking this in a presonus forum... But who better to ask?!

I know a lot of these quality of sound questions are purely subjective... But as an industry standard who makes the highest quality digital mixer that would double as an audio interface that doesn't cost a small car loan?

Thank you guys VERY much... I have done some searching around on these but no direct comparison have I been able to find.
User avatar
by roblof on Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:50 pm
#5 - It's a shame that you won't consider the x32/xair in your list of products, just because of previous products being not as good, as it seems to fit your needs quite well. It is well considered a pro product.

But your list is still a good selection to choose from. I'd stay away from firewire nowadays if I can as it is getting more and more difficult to find a computer with firewire that also is using a compatible chipset. Usb would be my choice but I'm also quite fond of dante that give me less/equal latency as usb. Firewire has an edge but using a modern computer the difference is mostly negligable.

Preamps are mostly neutral and does not add anything in their linear operating range. Differences will be noticable if you push the preamp/ad very close to clipping. I would not expect any coloration of your sound. I've not tested the TF-series but yamaha has earlier in the days been somewhat harsh in its overall sound. This may have changed.

Studio One Pro v5, Notion 6, Nuendo 11, BitWig v3, Reaper v4, Ableton Live 8 Suite, iMac late 2015, Behringer Wing/x32-BigBoy/x32-rack all with Dante/aes67 and s16/sd16 stageboxes, Flow8, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Behringer X-Touch, X-Touch ONE, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, DP48, Hub4 and p16 monitor systems, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Motör 61, BCR-2000, FirePod 10, Apogee Ensemble, Alesis HD24, NI Komplete 12 Ultimate Collectors, Halion 6, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Katana-100, DT-50, JSX, JCM800, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Behringer Neutron
User avatar
by Direttafis on Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:58 pm
I didnt even think that the x32 had multitrack abilities. I am not doubting that they have improved.

Just trying to get the highest quality I can. Before it was... Lets find what I can in my budget but started think about how happy I would be down the road.

Ive read some people say the RM16ai preamps can sound hard or processed. Some say they cant stand the mackie mixers preamps... Etc...

As far as firewire. I just got a Dell XPS 15 9550 with thunderbolt 3 (USB Type-C port) and could use adapters (infact I already have the apple thunderbolt 2 to firewire adapter) so the firewire vs USB is more of a reliability and lowest latency question. I have only dealt with USB but hear everyone scream about how great firewire is. I have also had driver issues occasionally with USB and have read that this isnt an issue one encounters so much with Firewire.

So thinking all constraints aside if you could have your dream mixer and had $3k to spend what would you get? Being its a mixer that can interact with a full featured DAW as a true multitrack audio interface and has wireless mixing options.

I am really asking here because the last mixer I bought was in 1999 and I am WAY out of the game when it comes to who is making the quality mixers these days.


Decisions... Decisions...
User avatar
by roblof on Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:23 pm
One thing also to consider is if you work a lot with TRS/TS and/or xlr.

You don't mention how many channels you need but if you work a lot with line level devices you should consider something like the xr18 with combo connectors and built-in hi-z inputs to eliminate the need for a lot of DI's and/or cable converters that may affect your sound and adds to the cost.

Most rack mount mixers usually only offer xlr inputs while many tabletop mixers usually line level inputs. Even the x32 only offer six dedicated line-level inputs. Patching external fx-processors are usually a slight hurdle on the modern digital mixers as they usually don't offer inserts. The studiolive line of mixers have line inputs and offers inserts on each channel so that is definitely a big plus.

The number of output channels and built-in processing may also need to be considered depending on your needs.

Studio One Pro v5, Notion 6, Nuendo 11, BitWig v3, Reaper v4, Ableton Live 8 Suite, iMac late 2015, Behringer Wing/x32-BigBoy/x32-rack all with Dante/aes67 and s16/sd16 stageboxes, Flow8, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Behringer X-Touch, X-Touch ONE, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, DP48, Hub4 and p16 monitor systems, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Motör 61, BCR-2000, FirePod 10, Apogee Ensemble, Alesis HD24, NI Komplete 12 Ultimate Collectors, Halion 6, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Katana-100, DT-50, JSX, JCM800, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Behringer Neutron
User avatar
by matthewseymour on Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:58 am
A great deal of nonsense is written about preamps imho. If you can tell, blind, the difference between preamps in any of the units mentioned here your hearing is considerably better than mine and, quite frankly, you probably won't be happy with anything that isn't boutique ;)

I too have avoided the Behringer X series because... well... Behringer. Actually that isn't quite true. I bought an XR18, which is a fantastic little piece of kit, but it went bang-smoke-death. Where I work the AV dept has had several failures of X32 desks and rack units. They're just not good enough, which is a shame because the feature set is amazing.

Firewire is a better interface for audio and will give you lower latency than USB. The issue is being able actually get a firewire interface on the computer you're using. If it's a desktop that's no problem. For laptops it can get quite difficult. As for reliability, shouldn't make any difference. But the collection of adapters you might need for firewire could be a trouble point.

I bought my RM mixers after the Behringer went bang and I decided I just needed to spent a bit more money. So far I've been happy with both the mixers and the support offered by Presonus. Mine are predominantly used as Dante interfaces, but I've also used them standalone and with a mixing application on PC over firewire. The flexibility is really nice.

I considered the Qu-Pac. A friend has a QU16 and loves it. I've had a little play and really liked the workflow of the console. Trouble is the desk is.... a desk and do you really want something with physical faders. The QuPac can't do Dante and I decided to go that route.

I've very briefly played with a Yamaha TF and was impressed and the ease of use and overall sound. It was running as a standalone desk so I can't comment on the connectivity options.

Bottom line is anything you buy is going to sound fine... honestly, they're all really quite good these days. It's more about what has the features you need, or can fit with a workflow you can accept, and isn't made by Behringer ;)
User avatar
by sjc193 on Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:02 am
Amen.


I think that the only thing you'll regret is not getting the RM32 insteaed of the RM16, so just trade it in and get the big boy! I rarely ever go over 16 channels, but it's really nice to have the extra 16 there, it's like headroom, I use 32 for talkback (though I never use it except for Smaart), 29 and 30 for VirtualDJ channels from the computer, 27 and 28 for an AUX in for other peoples iPods to play music, 31 for an FX unit, and still have 26 unused channels. This way I don't have to plug and unplug all kinds of goofy things like that depending on the gig, it's just all always there whether I use it or not and I still have tons of ins left, it's nice. Plus the 16 AUXes, they come in more and more handy every day, I'll be using 8 of them tonight to send line out of each channel to a seperate mixer for a radio mix while I do the live mix, I love that I can turn any of them into subgroups too, I use subgroups extensively.

Steve

StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram
ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router
IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260
2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's
2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers
4 EV ZLX-12P's, 1 TurboSound iX15, 2 Yamaha S115V's
1 Crest Pro-Lite 7.5 (7500 watts) amp, 2 Behringer EP4000 amps
10 58/57 mics, 1 SM86, 1 sE8, 1 sE2200, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021
1 beta52 kick mic, 2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's, 1 PRO48 DI
2 4Bar lights, 1 4Play, 1 6Spot, 1 fog machine
User avatar
by Direttafis on Thu Mar 31, 2016 10:03 am
Yes I definitely thought about grabbing the 32 channel version and if I stick with it I may. Part of my thinking was that it has a dedicated 16 preamps plus the addition 16 digital inputs and figured anything extra I could handle though the computer. But I may very well make that move.

I do wish that usb was more reliable. I suppose my biggest concern with USB is that I have often experienced noise through a usb audio interface where as the firewire just seems cleaner. I wonder if this is the case with a thunderbolt 3 USB Type-C port. I know the computer has standard 3.0 USB ports, but if this Type-C isn't shared it would be worth it to get a Type-C to standard USB adapter just to help clean things up.

I was really thinking of springing for: TF3, QU24, or Soundcraft Si impact. But I notice all three are USB.

Having the desk doesn't really bother me very much so long as it has wireless control as well and full multi track audio interface capabilities... In fact having the desk available may be convenient while I am at home so I don't need to keep my second computer set up for faders and such.

This venture from Type-C thunderbolt 3 to firewire is becoming a draw back which is the only reason I would consider USB. I just keep thinking about how funny USB can be sometimes and the latency, add that to the fact that I want to use the computer's DAW to process some of the audio and send click tracks makes me really nervous. I just imagine playing and suddenly I start hearing that high pitched squeal USB audio interfaces can sometimes get coming through the Mains, or a driver drops out or anyone of the other problems I have experienced with my USB audio interface at home... Granted it was a cheapy: Line 6 Toneport UX8.

I only used bold to highlight main needs/concerns

Thank you as well. I really do appreciate the feed back.
User avatar
by Direttafis on Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:09 am
I do need to say that the more and more I keep looking into some of these other mixer brands I keep thinking perhaps I made a good decision with the RM series. Many of these other ones do look great but have one feature or another feature missing that seem to be native to the RM. I just need to solve my Thunderbolt 3 to firewire issue. I am thinking of building an external enclosure that would allow me to add PCIe cards to the XPS 15 9550. This way I can just add whatever Firewire card I want.

I am assuming that we will soon see Type-C Thunderbolt to firewire for one reason: apple. They are making the move to this interface but are known in the industry for Audio/Video work. There is no way they would leave all their customers in studios, schools, etc... sitting on expensive Firewire interfaces and no way to integrate them into the new Macs. Same thing happened when apple stopped using firewire on their computers; they came out with that first thunderbolt to firewire adapter presonus recommends.

SO... one more question, my drummer keeps trying to push Mackie DL32. Is there any reason to consider this mixer over the RM series? Is it any better? He comes from about 32 years of live sound mixing experience and really pushes hard for this one; I just feel its using outdated tech and lacks firewire as well as a few other features.

He wants to run my RM mixer into a DL32r (He will be buying to replace his DL1608)... he thinks it would be easier, I think its odd to use two mixers and can make things a bit messy/unorganized. Where as I just want to run the mains from the RM directly to the digital crossover in his rack.

I also think he is a bit nervous. He doesn't like the idea of having a computer running a DAW while we're playing and seems to think we are taking control from the sound guy and giving it to the DAW; I have tried to explain that all 32 tracks (16 physical 16 digital) are fully controlled with UC Surface.
User avatar
by roblof on Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:46 pm
If I remember correctly the mackie can record direct to disk and that is pretty cool and usefull in many situations.

Macie's remote app is considered on of the best amongst all remote controlled mixers.

Studio One Pro v5, Notion 6, Nuendo 11, BitWig v3, Reaper v4, Ableton Live 8 Suite, iMac late 2015, Behringer Wing/x32-BigBoy/x32-rack all with Dante/aes67 and s16/sd16 stageboxes, Flow8, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Behringer X-Touch, X-Touch ONE, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, DP48, Hub4 and p16 monitor systems, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Motör 61, BCR-2000, FirePod 10, Apogee Ensemble, Alesis HD24, NI Komplete 12 Ultimate Collectors, Halion 6, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Katana-100, DT-50, JSX, JCM800, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Behringer Neutron
User avatar
by Direttafis on Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:07 pm
The direct to disc feature is pretty neat. I would be interested in how well it handles communication as a full audio interface with a DAW over USB.

The interface does seem pretty intuitive on the mackie.

I haven't goofed too much with UC Surface. How would you compare that to master fader.

Well this is kind of irrelevant I suppose. If the remote apps in these different mixers are solid and reliable that seems second to function of the mixer itself. As in: A remote app I can learn... But I cant add hardware capabilities that a mixer doesnt support.

"Form follows function"
User avatar
by matthewseymour on Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:22 am
The mackie is a perfectly good mixer. I think Master Fader is prettier and probably a bit easier to just jump in and use it. UC Surface needs a bit more familiarisation but in my opinion it's quicker to do stuff once you're comfortable with it.
User avatar
by summitcn on Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:16 am
Firewire communicates in both directions at the same time, so generally it will allow a higher track count at a lower latency than USB. The later USB implementations aren't bad though.

I own a Qu16 and it can live multi-track directly to a USB hard disk (18 tracks all at once, no overdubbing so only good for live), as well as connect to a DAW as an interface and remote control surface. The remote app isn't as smooth to operate as UC Surface, and I prefer UC Surface when mixing from an iPad. This is also true of the other A&H mixers (GLD / iLive) live apps.

The Soundcraft mixers are also good, but I have heard of their remote app not being too good. You may want to investigate that further before considering this.

I don't have any experience with the Yamaha TF series. I have owned an LS9 in the past, and still currently own an 01v296. I don't know how the TFs sound, but the 2 that I mentioned aren't up to par with newer digital mixers. My SL32ai sounded much better than either of them.

Play around with your RM16 a bit more, and find out what you like and don't like about it. If you are doing primarily studio work, I think that the RM32 would be a nice addition. I have an RM32, that I used for occasional studio work, but my primary work is with live sound, and I personally prefer physical faders, so I rarely use rack mixers in that application.

Also: I have recently been using DANTE for tracking and mixing with an A&H GLD-112 with StudioOne and DVS on a MacBook Pro. It works exceptionally well, but is a more costly method of tracking and mixing. DANTE is a good option however, that you may want to consider. The Qu mixers don't support DANTE, so this would take them out of the equation. I think that it is available for the TF and some of the Soundrcraft mixers and of course it is available for the Presonus SL and RM mixers.

P.S. Take your time, and do lots of research. If you can get your hands on some rentals, do it. Nothing worse than buyer's remorse.
User avatar
by sjc193 on Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:43 am
Mackie does have the best digital mixer ad I've ever seen though!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACo3VgXijlU

Hilarious! But I must say it make the software look pretty neat for some reason. . . :lol:

Steve

StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram
ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router
IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260
2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's
2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers
4 EV ZLX-12P's, 1 TurboSound iX15, 2 Yamaha S115V's
1 Crest Pro-Lite 7.5 (7500 watts) amp, 2 Behringer EP4000 amps
10 58/57 mics, 1 SM86, 1 sE8, 1 sE2200, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021
1 beta52 kick mic, 2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's, 1 PRO48 DI
2 4Bar lights, 1 4Play, 1 6Spot, 1 fog machine
User avatar
by Direttafis on Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:24 am
Ha, that's advertising at its finest.
User avatar
by matthewseymour on Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:17 am
As summitcn mentioned, Dante is worth consideration for linking to the PC. The Dante Virtual Soundcard would work with your DAW and let you move audio to and from the RM over a network connection. There is more latency than with a firewire connection but whether that's an issue or not is something only you can answer.

It's worth consideration though because it provides a lot of flexibility in the future, allows you to easily interface multiple PCs and any other Dante equipment to the RM. And could also be a nice way to integrate the drummer's Mackie too... Trouble is you need the Dante card, which adds cost.
User avatar
by Direttafis on Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:07 pm
i was considering this move to dante. It was suggested that I stick with firewire because we will be using a daw to add a click track and a little vst automation as well as recording. They said Dante didn't support AVB.
User avatar
by Direttafis on Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:08 pm
Also if this helps. I don't really plan on getting any digital snake, control surfaces, etc...

Was just planning on the mixer on stage with the recording DAW computer and a wireless tablet to handle mixing in the venue.

The control surfaces, digital snakes etc... look convenient perhaps for permanent installations. I don't see the need though for the extra expense or equipment (maybe this is because I have little experience in the digital mixer realm). It seems all this can be handled from the wireless tablet.
User avatar
by matthewgorman on Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:26 pm
It seems all this can be handled from the wireless tablet.


Certainly can. Some folks just like/need faders. The fact that its all optional, and you can scale your system to how you like it, is one of the bigger positives.

Matt

Lenovo ThinkServer TS140 Win 10 64bit, 8GB RAM, Intel Xeon
Lenovo Thinkpad E520, Windows 7 64bit, 8 GB RAM, Intel i5 Processor

S1Pro V5
User avatar
by sjc193 on Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:34 pm
Direttafis wroteAlso if this helps. I don't really plan on getting any digital snake, control surfaces, etc...

Was just planning on the mixer on stage with the recording DAW computer and a wireless tablet to handle mixing in the venue.

The control surfaces, digital snakes etc... look convenient perhaps for permanent installations. I don't see the need though for the extra expense or equipment (maybe this is because I have little experience in the digital mixer realm). It seems all this can be handled from the wireless tablet.


Yup!

I am currently doing exactly what you're planning on doing and I've been doing it for at least 3 years now. I have no desire to use anything other than the iPad to mix, the convenience factor out-weighs any issue with quickly getting to a conrtol/fader instantly via hardware, the time difference is neglegible in a rock and roll environment, theater may be a different story. The more you get used to it, the quicker you get with it too. Even if I had an analog system compared to the RM, imagine how long it would take to find the right compressor threshold knob for a channel with a rack of 48 compressors! I imagine I could make that change faster on the iPad.

I use a rackmount PC and RM32 with Firewire in the same rack, works great, I can also log right into the PC with my iPad so the PC is "Headless", it's slick. Everything is all plugged in all the time, all I really need to do is plug the rack into the wall socket, flip a couple switches and I'm up and running. I also feel I'm still future proofed pretty well because if I want to go Daunte in 2-3-4 years I can, no problem.

Steve

StudioLive RM32AI
Rackmount Windows 8.1 PC Quad core 8G ram
ASUS RT-N66U Dual Band Router
IPad2, IPad Air 2, Studio One 3 Pro, 1 DBX Driverack 260
2 QSC KW 153's, 2 Turbosound TMS-1's
2 OHM MR450D Subs with Kilomax 18inch drivers
4 EV ZLX-12P's, 1 TurboSound iX15, 2 Yamaha S115V's
1 Crest Pro-Lite 7.5 (7500 watts) amp, 2 Behringer EP4000 amps
10 58/57 mics, 1 SM86, 1 sE8, 1 sE2200, 1 AT2020, 2 AT2021
1 beta52 kick mic, 2 e609, 2 Radial J48 DI's, 1 PRO48 DI
2 4Bar lights, 1 4Play, 1 6Spot, 1 fog machine
User avatar
by roblof on Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:48 pm
Direttafis wrotei was considering this move to dante. It was suggested that I stick with firewire because we will be using a daw to add a click track and a little vst automation as well as recording. They said Dante didn't support AVB.

I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying... Dante would give you the same options as dante, and then some.

Why would you need avb if you use dante? Avb and dante are different flavors of essentially the same thing.

Studio One Pro v5, Notion 6, Nuendo 11, BitWig v3, Reaper v4, Ableton Live 8 Suite, iMac late 2015, Behringer Wing/x32-BigBoy/x32-rack all with Dante/aes67 and s16/sd16 stageboxes, Flow8, Waves x-wsg with SoundGrid server, Behringer X-Touch, X-Touch ONE, M-Air mr18, X-Air xr18, DP48, Hub4 and p16 monitor systems, TurboSound iQ-speakers, Motör 61, BCR-2000, FirePod 10, Apogee Ensemble, Alesis HD24, NI Komplete 12 Ultimate Collectors, Halion 6, True Temperament Frets on basses and guitars, Katana-100, DT-50, JSX, JCM800, Korg Kronos, Roland vk-7, Behringer Deepmind 12, Behringer Neutron

27 postsPage 1 of 2
1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest