Routers, Switches, Cabling, Access Points, Repeaters, etc all discussed here
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It seems that all the networking diagrams I have seen in the Presonus literature are a year or two old. Most routers include at least a 4-port switch these days. I would have thought by now it would be possible to buy a WiFi router that includes AVB-compatible Ethernet ports. This would avoid the need to have two separate boxes (router and AVB switch).

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by danielkyle on Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:02 pm
Nope.

Also your only practical choice is the MOTU. The only other approved AVB switch until the netgears work is about $700-$1000 (new) and then you need the AVB license that is almost $400-500 depending where you buy these things.
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by craigparmerlee on Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:07 pm
danielkyle wroteNope.

Also your only practical choice is the MOTU. The only other approved AVB switch until the netgears work is about $700-$1000 (new) and then you need the AVB license that is almost $400-500 depending where you buy these things.


Egads. I'm a bit confused. Judging from this article:
http://controlgeek.net/blog/2015/7/2/av ... ocomm-2015

it sounds as if Dante is far ahead of AVB in terms of market acceptance. Yet the vibe I get is that Presonus is mostly committed to AVB. I am surprised an open standard has not emerged, as has been the case in almost all areas of networking.

If I understand correctly, Dante uses standard networking gear -- no special "Dante enabled" hardware is needed. I guess my question is why any resources are being put against AVB. Why wouldn't Dante be a solution that could work across the whole Presonus product line?

And any guess as to when we might see Capture, the RM32AI and the CS18 all be able to work with Dante?

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by craigparmerlee on Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:31 pm
Regarding the "AVB license", this page:

http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/audio- ... explained/

indicates that AVB is an open standard, so I guess that "AVB license" is just an extra charge from the network product suppliers to enable the AVB support on their products.

So I can see the logic of wanting to support AVB. If this support were ubiquitous in network gear (like DHCP support) that would be the lowest cost solution, avoiding Dante charges. And AVB seems to offer a bit more control over latency. But the fly in the ointment is that there has been practically no uptake by the network suppliers.

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by roblof on Mon Apr 04, 2016 4:48 am
When presonus sprung(?) for avb dante was not as wildly accepted and mostly installed on high-end gear and comes with a heafty license fee as well.

At the time audinate(dante) said that they would also jump on the avb train and enable their products to be compatible with avb.

Since then dante has exploded on the market also into the semi-pro stuff (and some MI-stuff as well) and audinate has commited to the open aes67 standard as well and have released firmware updates to their popular brooklyn cards to enable this.

You could probably say that audinate has given up on avb,for the time being. Their virtual soundcard was lowered from $150 down to $30 making it almost a steal to buy now.

Merging released a couple of weeks ago a free coreaudio driver for aes67 supporting upp to 64 channels and rumor has it that there will be a similar asio driver in a near future.

Given that dante and aes67 requires no special hardware and has support for computer based daw/recording on most hardware for mac/pc I dont see how avb will be able to compete with and beat aes67/dante. As I also understand it, just because two devices speaks avb doesn't mean that they can speak with each other.

As I understand it standardization efforts are also being made to enablesupport wifi carry low-latency audio streams that is aes67/dante compatible.

This extra avb-compatible functionality in both hardware and firmware is probably why manufacturers wants to charge extra money for their efforts until the momentum is big enough to price their gear at a much lower price.

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by craigparmerlee on Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:48 am
I appreciate all these insights. I wish Presonus were more clear about their product direction.

May I give you a case for some specific advice? I would like to have a mobile PA system that consists of some powered speakers (already have QSC K10s and don't care about Ethernet connection to the speakers), a single RM32AI, a CD18AI , and a Windows laptop to capture the audio. WiFi for pads is a secondary issue I'd like to accommodate.

If I understand things correctly, I should be able to find a WiFi router that includes a 4-port gBit switch that meets the requirements that Presonus lays out (i.e. QoS support and the ability to disable the power saving mode). That router would be in the rack on stage with the RM32.

Both the Rm32AI and CD18 support Dante today, so those can connect with Ethernet/Dante now, and I don't need to use the wireless for any of that (unlike AVB ???)

The issue is the capture software. I could use Presonus Capture over Firewire, and that would require the laptop to be on stage. An alternative would be to buy Waves LiveTracks, which already supports Dante. If I understand it correctly, I wouldn't need anything else on the Laptop -- that is, the Dante support is all contained within LiveTracks. And in this case, I could put the router at the SC18 end and have the LiveTracks machine next to the CS18.

And all of that is possible today. Do I understand this correctly?

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by Karyn on Mon Apr 04, 2016 9:48 am
No, sorry.

First, the CS18 is AVB not Dante. Further, it is hard wired, not an option card, so it can't be changed/upgraded to Dante.
Second, Waves LiveTracks is free...
Third, Waves LiveTracks supports any soundcard driver, including Dante Virtual Sound Card... (thus it works with Dante) but you still have to pay out the $30 for Dante VSC
Most WiFi routers these days have compatible (for Dante) Gigabit ports, although there are NONE that support AVB.
Neither Dante nor AVB will work over WiFi, either today or in the near future. The current state of Wifi technology simply doesn't allow low enough latency.
You CAN connect an RM32 direct to a CS18 using everything that comes as standard in the box. That uses AVB so you won't be able to connect anything else. (except by firewire)

You CAN put a Dante card in your RM32 and still control it with the CS18, but you will loose the (meagre) audio feeds between the two. ie, no headphone output on the CS18 and the CS18 talkback mic won't be sent to the RM32. But that is ALL you loose, the control functions simply require normal Ethernet (which Dante uses). Using Dante would allow you to have your recording computer (running Waves LiveTracks) at the FOH position instead of on stage with the RM32.

Karyn

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by craigparmerlee on Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:00 pm
Karyn wroteNo, sorry.

First, the CS18 is AVB not Dante. Further, it is hard wired, not an option card, so it can't be changed/upgraded to Dante.
Second, Waves LiveTracks is free...
Third, Waves LiveTracks supports any soundcard driver, including Dante Virtual Sound Card... (thus it works with Dante) but you still have to pay out the $30 for Dante VSC
Most WiFi routers these days have compatible (for Dante) Gigabit ports, although there are NONE that support AVB.
Neither Dante nor AVB will work over WiFi, either today or in the near future. The current state of Wifi technology simply doesn't allow low enough latency.
You CAN connect an RM32 direct to a CS18 using everything that comes as standard in the box. That uses AVB so you won't be able to connect anything else. (except by firewire)

You CAN put a Dante card in your RM32 and still control it with the CS18, but you will loose the (meagre) audio feeds between the two. ie, no headphone output on the CS18 and the CS18 talkback mic won't be sent to the RM32. But that is ALL you loose, the control functions simply require normal Ethernet (which Dante uses). Using Dante would allow you to have your recording computer (running Waves LiveTracks) at the FOH position instead of on stage with the RM32.

Thank you for that detailed response.

It looks like Presonus has a very immature, incomplete solution. What is more troublesome is that they haven't been clear about what users should expect from them and when. I don't see how a person can make a big investment on that basis.

So let's set Dante aside for the moment because of the roadblocks you mentioned. Let's say I have the MOTU AVB switch. If I put that switch at the CS18 end (i.e. FOH), can I run the laptop with LiveTracks into that switch and record from the RM32AI over AVB?

And another point of confusion: this document
http://support.presonus.com/entries/667 ... ch-Network

says that if I set up an AVB switched network, "The AVB switch must also be connected to a WiFi router in order to provide IP addressing ." That makes no sense. Are they really saying that if I have ethernet running between the CS18 and RM32, I still have to use WiFi in order to set up IP addressing? Why can't that simply be done over the Ethernet connection?

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by roblof on Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:32 am
craigparmerlee wroteLet's say I have the MOTU AVB switch. If I put that switch at the CS18 end (i.e. FOH), can I run the laptop with LiveTracks into that switch and record from the RM32AI over AVB?

No, this won't currently work. Presonus has said that they need to update their avb implementation in the future to support computer recording.

It is also not fully clear if this will work on a pc without any expensive hardware and drivers. It is also not clear how/if presonus avb will be compatible with 3'rd party avb-enabled devices.

On the mac as I understand it avb is supported on hardware manufactured made around 2012 and thereafter and with native osx support.

And another point of confusion: this document
http://support.presonus.com/entries/667 ... ch-Network

says that if I set up an AVB switched network, "The AVB switch must also be connected to a WiFi router in order to provide IP addressing ." That makes no sense. Are they really saying that if I have ethernet running between the CS18 and RM32, I still have to use WiFi in order to set up IP addressing? Why can't that simply be done over the Ethernet connection?

What they actually mean is that you need a dhcp-server and all wifi-routers provides you with this. Normal ethernet switches doesn't provide you with dhcp and many people doesn't have dedicated dhcp hardware. A wifi router provides you with an easy access to a dhcp-server.

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by craigparmerlee on Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:57 am
roblof wroteWhat they actually mean is that you need a dhcp-server and all wifi-routers provides you with this. Normal ethernet switches doesn't provide you with dhcp and many people doesn't have dedicated dhcp hardware. A wifi router provides you with an easy access to a dhcp-server.

Thanks. That makes sense. I wish they would have said that.

I guess I will just keep the gear I have for awhile. This stuff is not ready for prime time.

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by craigparmerlee on Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:17 pm
roblof wroteWhat they actually mean is that you need a dhcp-server


Is it not possible to assign fixed IP addresses to the CS18 and RD32ai? In general I would rather do that on a simple private network like this anyway. That is one less thing to go wrong.

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by craigparmerlee on Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:28 pm
craigparmerlee wroteIs it not possible to assign fixed IP addresses to the CS18 and RD32ai? In general I would rather do that on a simple private network like this anyway. That is one less thing to go wrong.

This video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppHAXWI ... Newsletter

implies that you can do static IP on the RM and CS products, so it should be possible to have a MOTU AVB switch without any DHCP server. I guess that is mostly pointless at this stage because there isn't a solution for having capture software on that AVB network -- at least not from a Windows machine. Maybe it is possible to run a MacBook with the Waves TracksLive software plugged into the AVB network (rather than using Firewire.)

This whole Presonus strategy confuses me no end. They talk a good story about the CS18, which would be ideal for my situation. But they make it impossible to use in much of a system. Their emphasis seems to be on getting people to buy a full SL32ai console to hook to that RM32. That seems really wasteful, forcing you to buy and carry around 32 preamps you will never use.

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