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I just purchased COMB today, and I have been messing with it trying to get a score set up how I'd like. So far it has been pretty good. Dynamics and articulations seem to be supported. And I was able figure out how to make rules so that I could do a keyswitch between mutes and open, group and solo, etc. But I can't seem to make it slur notes correctly.

If I do
Condition is true -> Under Slur

Send CC -> 64 ->Value 80 -> Before note-on

It will "depress" the right pedal in the Aria player. But It stays down. So it just rings on for forever until I manually go and click on the pedal to "unpress" it.

I have dug through the manual on COMB, and it says in one spot that CC 64 controls slur, and it says in another that CC 68 does. But when I try changing the rule to 68 nothing happens at all.

I am just doing Bb C D Eb F Eb D C Bb in quarter notes, having the first four tonged and the last 4 slurred (the final is a whole note) on a trumpet, and having Notion do normal playback while I mess with it and try and achieve the slurred sound. I can't do it.

Am I writing the rule wrong or am I missing something?

Thanks!
Jesse
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by johnnewberry on Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:52 pm
Hello Jesse.
What I've seen from others and what I use for the "various slurred" Conditions is "duration-change" for the Actions .
In the manual Garritan states that the sustain pedal switches between the "tongued and slurred sounds". I have not tried this yet. The COMB library is one of the last rule-sets that I need to work on.
Now that I think about it Notion 5 may not transmit cc64(Sustain Pedal).
I'll have to look back at some of the older forum posts. I'll also do some simple tests.

Ps. If you haven't already done so you should set your rules to use cc1 for the "Hairpin CC" setting when using the Aria player and various Garrtian libraries.

,Newberry

:arrow:
Last edited by johnnewberry on Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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by xb2003 on Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:41 pm
Ok so I set the "duration-change" and that helps, but is there any way I can smooth it out a little?

I know in COMB2's manual it talks about "auto legato" and so on..
http://www.garritan.com/wp-content/uplo ... March5.pdf (page 72)

But a lot of the manual is going over how to use it standalone as well as with a DAW.
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by johnnewberry on Wed Dec 17, 2014 9:57 pm
johnnewberry wrote Now that I think about it Notion 5 may not transmit cc64(Sustain Pedal).
I'll have to look back at some of the older forum posts. I'll also do some simple tests.


cc64 is not actually transmitted from Notion 5 Piano Sustain pedal technique.
It is "converted" by Notion 5 into longer note durations. Not good and unorthodox IMO.
I see that Notion will transmit MIDI cc64 from other custom rule actions though.
I'm a little confused.
I can usually find some kind of workaround. I'm going to see what I can come up with.

,Newberry

:arrow:
Last edited by johnnewberry on Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by xb2003 on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:20 pm
And just because I'm curious, what does setting the hairpin cc to 1 do for me?

Jesse
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by johnnewberry on Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:50 pm
To be clear,
Dynamic "hairpin markings" represent gradual changes from one dynamic (loudness) level to another .eg. from ppp < fff using the Cresendo hairpin (<) is the shortcut.
Or the Diminuendo hairpin fff > ppp (>) the shortcut.

The Aria Garritan sound library player responds to cc1 (modwheel) to control an instruments volume level during the transition between these 'markings" in a score.
Most other sound libraries such as Kontakt, Play, Pianoteq5 , etc. use cc11 to control the various instruments dynamic levels.

EDIT: The COMB library also responds to cc2 and cc11 in addition to cc1 to control dynamic volume levels.

Simple change in your editor. try it.
Then the horns can blow!

,Newberry

:arrow:
Last edited by johnnewberry on Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by xb2003 on Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:41 am
I changed it to cc1. But I have not used a crescendo or anything yet, so I hadn't even noticed that yet.

So, and this may be a dumb thought, but using cc1 to do volume swells, is there a way that you could tell it to "roll off" the first note and "roll on" (maybe fade in/out is a better term) to the second note when under slur?

Jesse
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by johnnewberry on Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:51 am
xb2003 wrote But I have not used a crescendo or anything yet, so I hadn't even noticed that yet. Jesse


Try something like in the image below.

example using dynamic hairpins.PNG
example using dynamic hairpins.PNG (8.1 KiB) Viewed 16214 times


Does the volume on your instrument change as it should because of the added dynamics markings ?
If it doesn't you'll need to go over your rule-set or vsti setup to figure out what needs to be changed.

,Newberry

:arrow:
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by xb2003 on Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:28 am
Yeah I tried the slurs and they work fine.

I was asking about in some way using the volume swells to make slurs sound more realistic.
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by wcreed on Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:44 am
You really need to record the CC1 data into a sequencer track that goes to the same instrument. Then hide the track.

Bill Reed
Notion 6, Sibelius 8.4, Finale 25, Overture 5, Cubase 8.5
Win10 x64, 32GB RAM; iPad2; Focusrite Scarlett 18i20
Kontakt, VSL VI Pro, VE Pro, EWQL Orch, Choirs and Pianos
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by johnnewberry on Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:58 am
xb2003 wroteI was asking about in some way using the volume swells to make slurs sound more realistic.


Legato playing and slurred notes are durational technique that are produced by initiating or attacking a note followed by the next note(s) without re-striking, bowing or tonguing etc another attack. The notes that follow the first note have less of an attack sound which we perceive as smoother more connected sounding.
On a guitar it is usually called a hammer-on or pull-off technique.


Volume swells do not affect note time durations. They connect different levels of loudness.
For slurred and legato playing, the Garritan manual states that the legato sounds are changed with the use of cc64.

,Newberry

:arrow:
Last edited by johnnewberry on Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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by johnnewberry on Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:02 am
wcreed wroteYou really need to record the CC1 data into a sequencer track that goes to the same instrument. Then hide the track.

I can assure you that a custom rule-set with CC1 set as the Hairpin controller works quite well.

COMB and cc1.PNG
COMB and cc1.PNG (7.3 KiB) Viewed 16196 times

CC1 setting.PNG


,Newberry

:arrow:
Last edited by johnnewberry on Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by johnnewberry on Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:47 am
I tested Notion 5's External MIDI staff output for the transmission of a "sustain pedal" cc64 which was triggered by custom rules assigned to the "slurred condition" in Notion 5.
The MIDI monitor I use most definitely shows that cc64 "IS" transmitted from this method out of Notion 5's MIDI Port.
At this point it doesn't seem to trigger the Aria Garritan COMB "legato sounds" that I can tell.

I'm not the my workshop right now; however, with a real MIDI sustain pedal and MIDI keyboard I seem to recall actually hearing a different sample set or timbre being played by the Aria stand-alone for it's legato playback sound.

This is no doubt going to take some work through testing to get the best results.
I'm getting inconsistent results. I create a new Notion project, load the Garritan Aria player and it responds to Crescendo and Diminuendo hairpins without any custom rules attached. Then I start over and it does not respond :roll: .

I'm going to take my time and see if I can make sense of what is happening here and what needs to be done to get this to work effectively.


,Newberry

:arrow:
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by johnnewberry on Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:08 pm
After some work testing and tweaking, I was able to get Notion 5 custom rules to work for the Garritan COMB "slur condition" using MIDI cc64.

Now need to see what else can be covered by Notion 5 custom rules to work with the COMB and other Garritan libraries ie. World Instruments and JABB.

Notion rules specification and documentation do not include "AfterTouch" which is I believe the only way to access the vibrato effect from the Garritan COMB library. So that will most likely be a disappointment with no vibrato.
The Garritan Stand-alone may provide a work-around through the use of external MIDI ports and an inline MIDI data convertor.

Anyway, the COMB "slurred sound" or response is very subtle yet effective. A little tweaking and it should sound adequate though.

,Newberry

:arrow:
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by xb2003 on Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:35 pm
Ok..so you seem to be getting results but you have left me in the dust.. Can you tell how to achieve the Garritan COMB slur sound?

If you wouldn't mind, could you also tell me "why" or "how" it does what it does? I don't just want this to work, but I'd also like to grasp everything that goes into it.

Thanks for the help!

Jesse
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by johnnewberry on Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:51 pm
xb2003 wrote Can you tell how to achieve the Garritan COMB slur sound?


Yes I can.
Let me get my thoughts about this together so I can describe them as clearly as possible.

I've been ignoring the Garritan libraries for a long time and now I'm motivated to
see what Notion 5 custom rules can control in the various Garritan libraries.


,Newberry.
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by johnnewberry on Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:45 pm
The below file contains a starting point that covers the "slur" you asked about.
The slur parameters can be tweaked but seemed to work good for me as is.
Finishing the rule-set by adding the rest of the needed features is the next step.
Sounds like you've had success with some of them and that you have a good start.

EDIT: Deleted file see below in next postings for updated file.

,Newberry

:arrow:
Last edited by johnnewberry on Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by xb2003 on Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:17 pm
For me the right pedal stays down and so it runs all of the notes together. Did i do something incorrectly?
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by johnnewberry on Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:08 pm
xb2003 wroteFor me the right pedal stays down and so it runs all of the notes together. Did i do something incorrectly?

I'm sorry. I had deleted the pedal-up portion of the rule-set.

Here is one that works. Still could use some tweaking though.
COMB ruleset Draft 002.prules
(1.69 KiB) Downloaded 518 times

Input and try this notation. Watch the COMB players pedals.
You should also hear the legato sound from COMB.
COMB slur example Draft 2.png


,Newberry

:arrow:
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by xb2003 on Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:17 am
Sorry it took me so long to get back.

What this does when I try it (whether its on the example you told me to try or something else I put in) is it will play the first note of a slur and go on to the second, but the first note will still be held out, just as it was before. But after the second note, it releases the pedal and then the notes just sound slightly longer than they were before when under slur. I can still hear the attack.

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