Discuss Notion Music Composition Software here.
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Posting this knowing it probably won't stay up for long but hey, it might jog Presonus into doing something. I'm not holding my breath mind.
Last edited by aduki on Mon Jul 31, 2023 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by davidlarson6 on Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:47 am
I don't know the answer to your question. I've been a long-time fan of Notion, beginning (on the iPad) from the old version before Presonus bought it. I finally got tired of waiting, and went to Dorico, but being a Presonus Sphere subscriber, I'm still hopeful, as I like the Notion user interface.

I have a feeling, though, that their plan is to roll the full function of Notion into Studio One's score editor, and drop the second product. Just a guess, though. :)

DKLarson

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by themaartian on Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:45 am
So, someone else posted the same question. The one I posted a couple of weeks ago got zero responses. I was asking why I can no longer connect to the update servers. It's been a long time since that worked. I haven't uninstalled Notion, but the MuseScore 4 update brought it into the 21st century. It's a complete rewrite with a terrific GUI. And it's free. I haven't used Notion 6 since. Whatever PreSonus is working on, Notion appears to have been removed from the list.

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by davidlarson6 on Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:54 am
I still use Notion as a go-between with Studio One. S1 can't import or export MusicXML, but Notion can, and the two can share data. So I see no point in dropping Notion, and I'm hoping I'm wrong about its future.

At one time, Notion had the best playback system, but Dorico now has a more usable expression-map system, and MuseScore is coming along with their playback engine. If Notion 7 is coming, it's late to the party.

DKLarson

Windows 10, i9, 64GB, 3X 1TB SSDs; Macbook Pro M1 Pro, 32GB, 1TB SSD
Audient iD14, Atom SQ, Keystep 37, Studiologic SL88, Moog Sub Phatty, Kawai MP11SE, Roli Seaboard.
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by aduki on Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:17 pm
davidlarson6 wroteI don't know the answer to your question. I've been a long-time fan of Notion, beginning (on the iPad) from the old version before Presonus bought it. I finally got tired of waiting, and went to Dorico, but being a Presonus Sphere subscriber, I'm still hopeful, as I like the Notion user interface.

I have a feeling, though, that their plan is to roll the full function of Notion into Studio One's score editor, and drop the second product. Just a guess, though. :)


Me too, big fan. How do you find Dorico after Notion?
I tried the demo but really struggled with the shortcut way of doing everything.. But I'm thinking I should give it another go.

Sadly I do think the rhetorical answer to my question is ..Yes
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by davidlarson6 on Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:20 pm
aduki wrote[ How do you find Dorico after Notion?


There's a definite learning curve. I'm not real good at remembering shortcut keys, or learning from demos and tutorials, so I just jumped in and started a project, and learned as I went.

At this point, I think my note entry and editing is faster in Dorico than it was with Notion, but it has taken a few months. I'd say that's the way it goes with learning any new software; it takes a while to become comfortable and confident. Dorico is powerful; I haven't run into anything it can't do, although some things are in weird places.

I'd love to see Notion become a top-notch notation choice, while retaining the simplicity of its interface. Maybe it will, but I'm an old guy, and I can't wait forever. :roll:

DKLarson

Windows 10, i9, 64GB, 3X 1TB SSDs; Macbook Pro M1 Pro, 32GB, 1TB SSD
Audient iD14, Atom SQ, Keystep 37, Studiologic SL88, Moog Sub Phatty, Kawai MP11SE, Roli Seaboard.
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by richhickey on Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:14 am
davidlarson6 wroteAt one time, Notion had the best playback system, but Dorico now has a more usable expression-map system


Notion's system still has many advantages over Dorico's. In particular, it understands how slurs work, distinguishing starts-under, ends-under etc, which I've found invaluable for creating playback that works well. E.g. Notion can correctly handle two consecutive slurs of 2 notes each, while Dorico treats that and a set of 4 notes under a slur the same (by sending the 'legato' expression for all 4 of them). Legato is a property of a transition, not of a note.

I hope this power is not lost in some simplification exercise.
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by davidlarson6 on Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:29 pm
richhickey wroteNotion can correctly handle two consecutive slurs of 2 notes each, while Dorico treats that and a set of 4 notes under a slur the same (by sending the 'legato' expression for all 4 of them). Legato is a property of a transition, not of a note.


Dorico4 sends MIDI to the instrument in accordance with its MIDI "piano roll," just as a DAW does. When you enter a slur into the notation, the underlying MIDI is duration-adjusted. From the manual: "Slurred notes sound for 105% of the length indicated by their notated rhythm, as opposed to non-slurred notes which sound for 95% of their notated rhythm."

I just checked your hypothesis on a piece that I'm currently working on, and I found it not to be true. There is a definite and audible note-ending for each slur-ending note.

I imagine that there may be some sample libraries with a note decay that causes it to be audible long enough after the MIDI note-off, that it exceeds that 95% shortening. In that event, the note can be adjusted in the MIDI editor without affecting the notation. There's also a timing setting in the playback options that can adjust this globally.

DKLarson

Windows 10, i9, 64GB, 3X 1TB SSDs; Macbook Pro M1 Pro, 32GB, 1TB SSD
Audient iD14, Atom SQ, Keystep 37, Studiologic SL88, Moog Sub Phatty, Kawai MP11SE, Roli Seaboard.
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by nathanielwalker2 on Mon May 01, 2023 1:43 am
Yes. It is practically abandonware.

If you like how Notion does Note Input, then MuseScore is the best immediate alternative.

Dorico, Finale and Sibelius will all be a much steeper learning curve, and for full-feature SKUs they're all significant investments as well ($300-600 perpetual licenses - though Steinberg and MakeMusic do have sales).

If the focus is on composition and creating mockups directly in teh scoring software (what you'd use Studio One for with Notion), then Dorico Pro is the bee's knees. If the focus is on engraving for publishing, then Finale is practically industry standard - but it also has the most unorthodox (read: historical) user experience. If you need playback to conform to different period conventions (e.g. Baroque), then Finale's Human Playback Engine is set up to accommodate this. That's because a lot of people who transcribe manuscripts use it, so it developed these features for that market.

Notion 6 being what it is wouldn't be a huge issue if they [at least] did bug fixes and kept up to date with platform progression (e.g. Apple Silicon).

Right now, it's far too unstable and crash prone to trust, and documents are prone to corruption when it crashes. The sounds are dated at this point, and basically superseded by free MuseScore 4 Orchestral sounds. It's still not M1 Native. Windows Audio (WASAPI) is broken. It doesn't support SMuFL (at the mercy of its limited character/symbols and mediocre fonts). Lots of scoring symbols don't affect playback (even more don't exist in its character set). The Engraving is extremely basic-at-best.

I can crash it half the time just changing the sounds installation directory, or Audio Engine, on Windows 11. Not just crash it... but, completely BSOD my computers.

I had to move on.
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by nathanielwalker2 on Mon May 01, 2023 2:00 am
richhickey wrote
davidlarson6 wroteAt one time, Notion had the best playback system, but Dorico now has a more usable expression-map system


Notion's system still has many advantages over Dorico's. In particular, it understands how slurs work, distinguishing starts-under, ends-under etc, which I've found invaluable for creating playback that works well. E.g. Notion can correctly handle two consecutive slurs of 2 notes each, while Dorico treats that and a set of 4 notes under a slur the same (by sending the 'legato' expression for all 4 of them). Legato is a property of a transition, not of a note.

I hope this power is not lost in some simplification exercise.

Legato is a property of a transition, but so is a slur. The Slur tells you how you transition from note to note, and unless portamento is specified or an assumption you can make from the type of music you're composing or copying, it's "practically" legato.

The Slur basically forces legato when legato isn't specified or implied elsewhere. It's basically the same way of saying the same thing.

So, there is often no point in nesting slurs to try to force a specific type of sound/transition. When they are nested, they are nested to imply phrasing to the performer. For a singer or flute, the notes will simply be played legato. The nesting almost doesn't matter. They aren't like tuplets.
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by shanecoombs on Mon May 08, 2023 5:23 pm
I have long been saddened by the neglect of Notion, which was an outstanding piece of software. I have tried Musescore 4 and for me it just doesn't work, unless I'm missing something.

The most fundamental problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to set up any kind of expression mapping or rules system for any VSTs. The built in Muse sounds are pretty good for being free, but I'd still much prefer my much better VSTs which I have spent a lot of money on. In Musescore these seem almost worthless since there doesn't seem to be any way to control them - even most DAWs can do more automation.

The second is that there seems to be very little option to fine tune stuff. For instance, for the past several months I have found that when you increase or decrease the dynamic marking there is a sudden jump in volume which sounds awful as the tail end of the finishing note changes to the new volume suddenly. There doesn't seem to be a way to fine tune the length of notes or anything of that sort to try to fix the problem - at least not that I've been able to find - and even if there were, I suspect it would still cause problems with legato and other notes that need to be close together.
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by acequantum on Mon May 08, 2023 5:59 pm
I still like Notion... and Notion Mobile is coming along. It's kinda close to where Notion 6 is except for the VST stuff, effective MIDI routing, conducting, Ntempo, rules and such.

There are some "ease of use" tools that I used to miss (from other notation software) like exploding chords to staves - but I haven't had a need to use that for a while now.

I have tried Muse 4 as well and I just can't get into it. It's an excellent open source project but it has sort of a niche design. It reminds me in some ways of Reaper. Reaper seems like an excellent DAW but the user interface is too complicated for me to embrace. Menu upon menu upon submenu upon submenu.

When I got Notion I was able to use it pretty much out of the box. There were a couple of program specific things I had to get used to, but other than that, it was very intuitive and to the point.

But that doesn't solve the "abandonware" feeling with no updates since 2021.
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by Surf.Whammy on Mon May 08, 2023 8:10 pm
Surf.Whammy responds to the ignorant suggestions of abandoning and neglecting NOTION . . . :ugeek:

THOUGHTS

As a bit of background, I have been doing software engineering in Windows since 1987 and macOS since 2000; but I also do music and play electric guitar, electric bass, drums, and a bit of keyboard synthesizer . . .

I have been using NOTION since 2010; and I use it for songs and music for my science fiction radio plays and cooking videos . . .

Until recently, I did everything in ReWire sessions where NOTION was a ReWire helper device and Studio One Professional was the ReWire host controller, which ocassionally included using Reason as a ReWire helper device . . .

This changed when the Propellerheads (now Reason Studios) and Steinberg stopped supporting ReWire, which in turn meant that Studio One had to stop supporting ReWire . . .

Along the way Apple started using its own unique processors (Apple Silicon, M1, M2 Pro, and M2 Max) . . .

Summarizing:

(1) No ReWire

(2) New Apple Silicon and corresponding macOS and Application Frameworks

NO REWIRE

Without ReWire, there was no way to use NOTION interactively in real-time with Studio One Professional; and this was a big problem . . .

The solution was to embed NOTION within Studio One Professional; and this was a monumental software engineering project . . .

On the NOTION side, it's done by the same folks who do the software engineering for NOTION; and from the perspective of software engineering this is a major, significant accomplishment--not something trivial in any way . . .

This is new to Studio One Professional 6 with respect to no ReWire; but it first appeared in Studio One Professional 5, which still supported ReWire . . .

phpBB [video]


phpBB [video]


APPLE SILICON ~ NEW MAC OPERATING SYSTEM

Apple and Microsoft continually update their operating systems and application frameworks; so in a general sense, it's not such a big deal when there are minor changes in operating systems; but on the Apple side, switching to a new set of processors (Apple Silicon, et al.) is a big change; and this requires ongoing software engineering updates, enhancements, and so forth . . .

The last time Apple switched processors--from Power PC to Intel--it took some third-party vendors a few years to do the required product application updates, where as I recall, it took IK Multimedia perhaps two or three years . . .

It's similar this time, and Apple has provided a workaround "sandbox" (Rosetta Translation Environment, a.k.a. "Rosetta 2") to make this easier for third-party developers . . .

[NOTE: In this context, PreSonus is a third-party developer, as are Reason Studios, Steinberg, MOTU, IK Multimedia, EastWest, Native Instruments, Waves, XLN Audio, and so forth . . . ]

Rosetta Translation Environment (Apple)

ABANDONED OR EVOLVED

With a computer and keyboard, it's easy to express opinions, including when paid by competitors to do this--but expressing opinions does not make them accurate, honest, and logical . . .

As noted, I have been using NOTION since 2010, and the embedded NOTION music notation editing in Studio One Professional 6 is superb in every respect; and in fact I suggest it is easier to do this in Studio One than it is in NOTION 6 . . .

Depending upon one's perspective, it might appear inconsequential to embed NOTION music notation and playback in Studio One Professional 5 and 6; but as a degreed Computer Scientist and GUI application software engineer since 1987 (Windows and later macOS), it is not inconsequential . . .

Suggesting it is inconsequential is ignorant or in some instances malicious trolling . . .

As an early Microsoft Solution Provider and Windows World Open Contest judge for several years, and more recently since 2000 as a registered Apple Developer, the work PreSonus has done to add advanced music notation composing and editing to Studio One is on par with one of my favorite technological accomplishments, which is the way SpaceX (Elon Musk) devised a strategy to return rocket boosters to Earth and to land them on launch pads or on the decks of ships in the ocean . . .

Abandoning or neglecting?

No, it's evolving and enhancing in the grand scheme of digital music production . . .

FACT: No other company does what PreSonus does for combining an advanced Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application like Studio One Professional 6 and advanced music notation composing, editing, and performing like NOTION, observing with respect to performing that NOTION is used for accompanying and enhancing real-time musical concert and theater performances and is unique in this respect.

It might not be so immediately obvious to everyone what PreSonus is doing in its focus on composing and performing with music notation and virtual instruments-- including combining this with all the features and capabilities of its DAW application, Studio One--but it's obvious to me . . .

As a thought exercise, when Apple created and released the iPhone, did it abandon or neglect the rotary dial telephone? :P

Lots of FUN! :)

Surf.Whammy's YouTube Channel

The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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by davidlarson6 on Tue May 09, 2023 10:15 am
I can't fully agree with you, Surf, at least at this point in Studio One's evolution. The Studio One score editor is, at best, a subset of Notion. It's useful for entering MIDI into the DAW, but it's not very useful for the creation of musician-readable scores; it lacks too many necessary functions, like repeats, second endings, multi-bar rests and repeats, etc. I'd say that the score editor in Apple's Logic Pro (which has been around for years) is at least as good.

This may well change with future updates. I don't have a crystal ball, and the grounds at the bottom of my coffee cup don't work like tea leaves. ;)

DKLarson

Windows 10, i9, 64GB, 3X 1TB SSDs; Macbook Pro M1 Pro, 32GB, 1TB SSD
Audient iD14, Atom SQ, Keystep 37, Studiologic SL88, Moog Sub Phatty, Kawai MP11SE, Roli Seaboard.
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by richhickey on Tue May 09, 2023 5:53 pm
davidlarson6 wrote
richhickey wroteNotion can correctly handle two consecutive slurs of 2 notes each, while Dorico treats that and a set of 4 notes under a slur the same (by sending the 'legato' expression for all 4 of them). Legato is a property of a transition, not of a note.


Dorico4 sends MIDI to the instrument in accordance with its MIDI "piano roll," just as a DAW does. When you enter a slur into the notation, the underlying MIDI is duration-adjusted. From the manual: "Slurred notes sound for 105% of the length indicated by their notated rhythm, as opposed to non-slurred notes which sound for 95% of their notated rhythm."

I just checked your hypothesis on a piece that I'm currently working on, and I found it not to be true. There is a definite and audible note-ending for each slur-ending note.

I imagine that there may be some sample libraries with a note decay that causes it to be audible long enough after the MIDI note-off, that it exceeds that 95% shortening. In that event, the note can be adjusted in the MIDI editor without affecting the notation. There's also a timing setting in the playback options that can adjust this globally.


I said nothing about the durations. If you associate some control signal (e.g. CC/PC/KS) with the 'legato' expression it will be sent 4 times in a row. Therefore you can't, using expression maps, distinguish the two 2-note slurs from a single 4-note slur, and you simply do not have anything like the control you have with Notion. I have confirmed as much with the Dorico product manager and lead programmer.
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by richhickey on Tue May 09, 2023 5:55 pm
nathanielwalker2 wrote
richhickey wrote
davidlarson6 wroteAt one time, Notion had the best playback system, but Dorico now has a more usable expression-map system


Notion's system still has many advantages over Dorico's. In particular, it understands how slurs work, distinguishing starts-under, ends-under etc, which I've found invaluable for creating playback that works well. E.g. Notion can correctly handle two consecutive slurs of 2 notes each, while Dorico treats that and a set of 4 notes under a slur the same (by sending the 'legato' expression for all 4 of them). Legato is a property of a transition, not of a note.

I hope this power is not lost in some simplification exercise.

Legato is a property of a transition, but so is a slur. The Slur tells you how you transition from note to note, and unless portamento is specified or an assumption you can make from the type of music you're composing or copying, it's "practically" legato.

The Slur basically forces legato when legato isn't specified or implied elsewhere. It's basically the same way of saying the same thing.

So, there is often no point in nesting slurs to try to force a specific type of sound/transition. When they are nested, they are nested to imply phrasing to the performer. For a singer or flute, the notes will simply be played legato. The nesting almost doesn't matter. They aren't like tuplets.


I am not talking about nested slurs but consecutive slurs. Two notes slurred followed by two notes slurred cannot be distinguished in Dorico's expression maps from four notes under a single slur. Notion has much better and more useful slur support.
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by shanecoombs on Tue May 09, 2023 8:47 pm
davidlarson6 wroteI can't fully agree with you, Surf, at least at this point in Studio One's evolution. The Studio One score editor is, at best, a subset of Notion. It's useful for entering MIDI into the DAW, but it's not very useful for the creation of musician-readable scores; it lacks too many necessary functions, like repeats, second endings, multi-bar rests and repeats, etc. I'd say that the score editor in Apple's Logic Pro (which has been around for years) is at least as good.

This may well change with future updates. I don't have a crystal ball, and the grounds at the bottom of my coffee cup don't work like tea leaves. ;)


I hadn't even heard about this so I started looking at it tonight. I was initially extremely impressed, but quickly soured unless I'm missing something. There doesn't appear to be a way to specify what certain musical symbols actually do unless you're changing a sound in a VST - for instance, you can make an accent send a program change to the VST but you can't make it increase the dynamics by a specified amount - and you can't even, as far as I can see, control dynamics other than by using velocity, meaning if you have a VST which uses a CC for dynamics (which is essentially all of them at this point), you can't even control dynamics. Heck, I'm even at a loss as to determining how to change note velocities in the piano roll. All I can see is a percentage but nowhere to enter a raw value.
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by themaartian on Wed May 10, 2023 1:55 am
davidlarson6 wroteI still use Notion as a go-between with Studio One. S1 can't import or export MusicXML, but Notion can, and the two can share data. So I see no point in dropping Notion, and I'm hoping I'm wrong about its future.

At one time, Notion had the best playback system, but Dorico now has a more usable expression-map system, and MuseScore is coming along with their playback engine. If Notion 7 is coming, it's late to the party.

I'd settle for an update from 6.8.2 to 6.8.3, just to know that they're still working on it.

And I still can't connect to the update server. Checking for updated sounds tells me everything is up-to-date, but the main app update check link is broken.

I still find that concerning.

Intel i9, 32 GB RAM, 7 TB SSD Win 11 Pro PreSonus Studio 1810c
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by rubenstubenchlak on Mon May 15, 2023 6:00 am
themaartian wrote
davidlarson6 wroteI'd settle for an update from 6.8.2 to 6.8.3, just to know that they're still working on it.



Same boat. My expectations now are in a way that I only hope for it to work without its laggy behavior on the Mac Ventura.
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by shanecoombs on Tue May 16, 2023 6:50 pm
Honestly, seeing the discussion about Studio One 6 and having tried it myself I have the strong suspicion that they are done with Notion because they're incorporating it into Studio One instead.

The problem is that while the part of Notion that is in Studio One is excellent, there are still some very basic things missing like even the ability to control dynamics. If they want to "abandon" Notion to just make a single product in Studio One that has all the function of Notion plus the DAW function, I actually think that's a great idea.

My concern is that they only go part of the way (like they have so far) and we just get something pretty useless for what Notion was good for.

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