Discuss Notion Music Composition Software here.
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Just curious: does anyone on this thread actually print sheet music in hard copy form?

Are people here using notation programs to score for money/jobs etc. ?

Back in university/college I had to score for a brass ensemble and used Finale within the school(about 2000 years ago). Years later, when I was writing a lot of piano works, I used my own version of Finale to score them and also to convert the scores to MIDI and ultimately play back through synthesizers, digital pianos or sampled piano sounds in the form SF2 or DLS (what became SF2 later) and also printed the sheet music.

More recently, in the last 5 or so years, I use notation programs mostly for scripting ideas or sections or excerpts and do everything else in a DAW to complete a song or arrangement. Sometimes the music notation lets me harmonize quickly just using some knowledge of theory. Once I discovered Notion, I stopped using Finale altogether actually because of the simplicity of notion.

I started getting into guitar tab the last couple of years and actually use Guitar Pro for that. However, Notion allows for fairly decent tab too so I'll switch on and off between the two. But for creating Tab parts that I actually share with others, I use Guitar Pro. And using sample libraries from AmpleSound, the interface will actually read guitar pro tab so that makes a real nice bridge into a DAW.

I guess my point, if there is one :D is that I don't really need more out of Notion as a tool. I'd like some other options but mostly am interested in some of the glitches being fixed and a few more design and printing options. I do so much in a DAW, a notation program has really become secondary.

If one makes a living off of notation or transcribing I can understand the frustration with no updates or bug fixes in a program one is familiar or likes using.

And just a note about Musescore... there's one thing that turns me off so much so that I hate to use it - lack of scroll bars. I can't say how many times I went to drag the page into position and accidentally grabbed a note or a tie or a slur and just moved it out of place. Infuriating!
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by davidlarson6 on Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:09 pm
acequantum wroteJust curious: does anyone on this thread actually print sheet music in hard copy form?

Are people here using notation programs to score for money/jobs etc. ?


I do print scores, mostly for my own use. I have a large-format printer that can handle orchestral scores. I find it a lot easier to work on a major score if I can print out working draft copies, since it's hard, even with multiple monitors, to see everything "together" while also editing.

There's no money in what I do. I'm a retiree, and I write symphonies and other "classical" stuff because I have the music in me. My primary objective is the score itself, not a DAW "realization" of it, although I use DAW playback to share what I'm doing with others. (I'm working on my 8th symphony at the moment.)

DKLarson

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by acequantum on Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:33 am
Is there anything missing or you can't do with Notion when writing your symphonies?

I find writing music from scratch and playing back in Notion is pretty straightforward and I get good results. However, If I import a MIDI file then there are many problems. One thing, Pan, Expression and probably other CCs do not import.

You can do a simple test for this. In preferences, make sure MIDI files import as sequencer staves. Import a MIDI file you know to have panning, expression etc and you will see the CCs do not import.
This is probably one of the biggest flaws I find in Notion.

Another huge problem I find is the inability to sync to other MIDI clocks. It really isn't meant as a sequencer tool. This is a huge irritation to me. Syncing (slave and master settings) MIDI clocks is one of the fundamentals of using a computer, electronic instruments, synths etc. and MIDI in general.

If I want to use Notion, at this point I've had to accept that for me it's only good to use as a writing tool - that's why everything else I want to or need to handle electronically for music I use a DAW or other audio tools.
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by davidlarson6 on Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:17 pm
acequantum wroteIs there anything missing or you can't do with Notion when writing your symphonies?


Well, the fact that I've managed to write seven of them suggests that Notion is capable of it. :) Having said that, there are things I'd change.

I don't particularly like Notion's note-entry method, where you're forced to manually enter notes and rests from the beginning of each measure. If I want to put a single quarter-note on the third beat of a measure, I should be able to do it with a minimum of keystrokes or mouse clicks. Other notation software automatically pads out measures with rests, and allows a quick method of entering notes at their desired location in the measure. Given how often one enters notes when composing, it seems this should be as simple and fuss-free as possible. But Notion's insistence on filling measures left-to right makes this more cumbersome.

There's also the process of copying between instruments. Notion requires the select/copy/paste thing, while other software provides hotkey methods of duplicating between staffs. It's small things like this that add time and effort to the work.

For the most part, Notion works fine, but there's more busy-work involved.

DKLarson

Windows 10, i9, 64GB, 3X 1TB SSDs; Macbook Pro M1 Pro, 32GB, 1TB SSD
Audient iD14, Atom SQ, Keystep 37, Studiologic SL88, Moog Sub Phatty, Kawai MP11SE, Roli Seaboard.
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by aduki on Sun Dec 25, 2022 5:03 am
nathanielwalker2 wrote
JohnBW wrote
michaelmyers1 wroteI downloaded a trial version of Dorico and tested it recently. It took contact with Dorico tech support to get it to work to begin with (audio engine fails). The piano roll editing is OK, but not particularly robust. There is no connectivity with a DAW for deeper production editing. Cubase/Dorico Expression Maps are as equally obscure as Notion Rulesets, and Studio One Sound Variations are considerably easier to use. Probably the biggest issue for me is that Dorico doesn't sound particularly nice when playing back. It's still my opinion that Notion plays music better than any other notation program out there thanks to the native libraries and expansions available...

And saying Expression Maps are equally obscure as Notion Rules is blatant intellectual dishonesty. I can't even take such a statement serious. If this were true, we would have a lot more rules and templates available. Notion 6 existed before Dorico was on the market.


Er... expression Maps are indeed completely obscure. I am very familiar with them and also familiar with how unpopular they are in the Dorico community. Apart from..apparently...you.

And attacking someone in such a manner (you are "blatantly intellectually dishonest"- hilarious) for saying this is, frankly, bizarre.
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by nathanielwalker2 on Thu Jan 12, 2023 6:09 am
Repeating a falsehood doesn’t make it a fact. That’s the bizarre part… that you’re actually doubling down on that.

I stand by what I said.
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by rubenstubenchlak on Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:42 pm
nathanielwalker2 wroteRepeating a falsehood doesn’t make it a fact. That’s the bizarre part… that you’re actually doubling down on that.

I stand by what I said.


Dorico, Sibelius, Finale, are far superior compared to Notion, and, based on the velocity of improvements Notion mobile presents us, the bad news is that they will continue to be for a long time.
All that is a fact. If anyone doubts it just go check the names and number of professional composers among Notion users compared to Dorico for example. Of course, the word professional differs in meaning among some folks here...

I have to say though that Notion has a unique way of inserting notes without being limited by the grid which is key for composing concert contemporary music, and that is what made me stick to it. It is unique in that concept. I do have the latest Dorico and had first Finale, then Sibelius to... Notion in 2006... long time, very few improvements.
It is abandonware from the perspective that there isn't an update since... 2016? In my case being useless since Big Sur with sluggish behavior.
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by nathanielwalker2 on Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:12 am
rubenstubenchlak wrote
nathanielwalker2 wroteRepeating a falsehood doesn’t make it a fact. That’s the bizarre part… that you’re actually doubling down on that.

I stand by what I said.


Dorico, Sibelius, Finale, are far superior compared to Notion, and, based on the velocity of improvements Notion mobile presents us, the bad news is that they will continue to be for a long time.
All that is a fact. If anyone doubts it just go check the names and number of professional composers among Notion users compared to Dorico for example. Of course, the word professional differs in meaning among some folks here...

I have to say though that Notion has a unique way of inserting notes without being limited by the grid which is key for composing concert contemporary music, and that is what made me stick to it. It is unique in that concept. I do have the latest Dorico and had first Finale, then Sibelius to... Notion in 2006... long time, very few improvements.
It is abandonware from the perspective that there isn't an update since... 2016? In my case being useless since Big Sur with sluggish behavior.

Yea, and no Apple Silicon.

My guess is they expect users to view Notion Mobile as the upgrade. Eventually v6 will be phased out. This is why Notion Mobile is available in the Windows and Mac App Stores.

Issue with Finale is its focus is predominantly in publishing and education. Bad QoL for composition. Sibelius and Dorico are better there. MuseScore 4 will slot into the niche that Notion filled, especially now that it has pretty nice default orchestral sounds.

If only Studio One could import and export XML, natively.
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by herbievantetering on Sun Sep 03, 2023 3:46 am
Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn etc. etc. they would have found Notion 6 and Notion Mobile the magic performance and writing tool. Notion's VST support could only have been seen as pure magic.

King: "you mean, if I push this magic button, the magic box, ..., it, ..., it actually plays or sings the note I just wrote? and it can even show my notes on magic paper for the orchestra? Is such magic even possible?"
Salieri: "yes your royal highness, and in such detail, that's why we must not let Mozart to this magic box your highness."
King: "I shall ask my advisors about the magic box, such a thing must not fall into the wrong hands..."
Salieri: "indeed your highness, I would not want to begin to imagine what Mozart could do with the magic box, ..., it might become a scandal."
King: "honorable court composer, ..., you might be right, I shall invite Mozart to a challenge and talk with my advisors, we must indeed not give the box to anyone like Mozart (at first) but it might still be fun."

They would have been shocked at the behaviour of users wishing for new versions; Notion 6 and Notion Mobile is all they'd need.

Notion 6 combined with Notion Mobile is lightyears ahead of anything else and especially succesfull at creating a paperless studio environment.

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by shanecoombs on Mon Sep 04, 2023 8:55 pm
herbievantetering wroteMozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn etc. etc. they would have found Notion 6 and Notion Mobile the magic performance and writing tool. Notion's VST support could only have been seen as pure magic.

King: "you mean, if I push this magic button, the magic box, ..., it, ..., it actually plays or sings the note I just wrote? and it can even show my notes on magic paper for the orchestra? Is such magic even possible?"
Salieri: "yes your royal highness, and in such detail, that's why we must not let Mozart to this magic box your highness."
King: "I shall ask my advisors about the magic box, such a thing must not fall into the wrong hands..."
Salieri: "indeed your highness, I would not want to begin to imagine what Mozart could do with the magic box, ..., it might become a scandal."
King: "honorable court composer, ..., you might be right, I shall invite Mozart to a challenge and talk with my advisors, we must indeed not give the box to anyone like Mozart (at first) but it might still be fun."

They would have been shocked at the behaviour of users wishing for new versions; Notion 6 and Notion Mobile is all they'd need.

Notion 6 combined with Notion Mobile is lightyears ahead of anything else and especially succesfull at creating a paperless studio environment.


I think when Mozart and Beethoven found out that the magic box couldn't play back the dynamics they wrote down correctly they would, like me, start hoping for someone to come along and fix it so that it could. Notion 6 is very close to what you describe here, but it has some key disqualifying issues that lead me to not use it any more.
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by themaartian on Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:39 am
I got tired of waiting and super tired of the "Check for updates" option continuing to return an error message indicating a failure to connect to the update server. Switched to the free MuseScore 4 and haven't looked back. My needs are pretty simple and MS4 does what I need.

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by herbievantetering on Thu Sep 07, 2023 7:33 am
> couldn't play back the dynamics they wrote
> down correctly they would, like me, start
> hoping for someone to come along and fix
> it so that it could. 

Those are just artifacts of an orchestra with amnesia.

Dynamics can be fixed with different dynamic maps (sound variations) etc. per articulation; as it is often the sample, sampler or VSTi volume or -setting. As for the 'bugs', those can be solved with a combination of writing different and alternate configurations.

It's difficult to get instruments to lineup with so many sound variations and inconsistencies between samples (and VSTi's) and with minimal tooling and minimal documentation.
With Notion one has to measure the plugin behaviours and the volumes of the dynamics of each articulation of each instrument with a solid testset and this is a daunting task without the proper tooling.
On top of this, VSTi's and Notion's samples etc. are often ambiguous in how they respond to what types of control.

Sometimes users will just have to either fix it themselves or wait for a new version or work with what's available.

There is no magic solution for inconsistencies; sound variations solve some problems though, so let's hope that Notion 7 allows for more control, more clarity, better mapping and fixes for the existing bugs.

No matter what, Notion 6 still has loyal users like me.
Just spending more time implementing solutions with what's available can help.

Although I must admit; developers don't make it easy for users.
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by Surf.Whammy on Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:50 am
A few thoughts, observations, and opinions . . . :)

THOUGHTS ON COMPUTER STUFF

(1) Occasionally I have access to a 2019 MacBook Pro, but not often.

(2) I do everything on the Mac.

(3) My newest Mac is a 2012 Apple 27" iMac with an internal hard drive, running macOS Catalina.

(4) At moment I am using MacBook Pro (Retina, 13-inch, Late 2012) due to house-sitting and trying to keep cool in 100+ degree Fahrenheit weather with no rain since June 10, 2023. It also is running macOS Catalina 10.15.7.

(5) I have a few 2008, 2009, and 2010 Mac Pro supercomputers with plenty of internal hard drive farms, but I don't use them, although I could. Mostly, I have them in case there is a nuclear attack, since they probably are more resilient than a Mac notebook or iMac.

(6) The 2012 iMac and MacBook Pro run everything, as do the 2008, 2009, and 2010 Mac Pro supercomputers--with the exception of MODO DRUMS (IK Multimedia) which requires an Intel® Core™ i5 with support for AVX instructions. The Mac Pro supercomputers have Intel XEON processors that do not support AVX Instructions. This was annoying until I switched to the 2012 iMac, although now I prefer Addictive Drums 2 and the John Bonham (Led Zeppelin) drumkit variations.

(7) I like older Apple computers, and they very affordable--more so than two years ago. I get a new one every so often from Other World Computing (Mac Sales) with the extended in-house warranty. For example, OWC currently has an Apple 27" iMac Retina 5K (2017) 3.8GHz Quad Core i5 - Used, Mint condition for just under $1,000 with 32GB memory, 4.0TB Fusion Drive (HDD+SSD), and two-year OWC Plus extended warranty. It runs the current version of macOS, and has an Intel processor.

(8) NOTION "Check for Updates" works nicely on the 2012 iMac and MacBook Pro, which leads me to guess it's a problem on the Windows side of the universe.

THOUGHTS ON ELABORATE MUSIC NOTATION MARKS

(1) I do not use articulations, dynamics, playing styles, repeats, first and second endings, prepackaged and custom rules, and all that stuff, since (a) there are better ways to do that stuff, (b) it's mostly a waste of time, and (c) it's visually cluttered.

(2) Next year, I will be in my mid-70s, but I have been very careful with my hearing and am good to about 13-kHz, which tends to be the highest quality hearing for everyone on this planet--except children whose parents so far have not taken them to a KISS, Miley Cyrus, Taylor Swift, Metallica, Rolling Stones, Justin Bieber, or Snoop Dogg concert and sat next to the PA loudspeaker arrays.

George Martin provided a perspective on teenage hearing by observing that when the Beatles had a bit FUN on the out-grooves of the "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Heart Club Band" album, he added 17-kHz tones to entertain dogs and have his own FUN, which I interpret as being a subtle way of saying only dogs and other animals can hear frequencies that high.

It took me decades to connect the dots on this; and it started due to someone centuries ago deciding that guitar needed to be a transposing instrument, hence "Middle C" was the note at the third fret of the low-pitch "A" string, which is one of the many lies created but such folks in their ongoing efforts to discourage peasants from understanding any music other than "by ear" folk music.

As I learned a few years ago, Middle C on rhythm and lead guitar is the first fret on the high-pitch"b" string.

Prior to this epiphany I thought I was a soprano, when actually I am a baritone.

In particular, most of the important audio occurs below 500-Hz, which makes everything above 500-Hz focused more on clarity and distinctness.

(3) My hearing is highly trained, and I hear things most people do not hear, where one of my recent epiphanies in this regard happened a few years ago as I was listening to "Hound Dog" (Elvis Presley) as I have been doing since the mid-1950 and noticed that Elvis was doing uvular trills.

[NOTE: The uvular trill is most easily heard at 1:59 . . . ]

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How did I miss that?

Perhaps because I didn't know what a uvular trill was, even though I had two years of French in college.

How did Elvis know about uvular trills when he was 21 years-old?

Intuition? A producer or vocal coach?

Paul McCartney does something similar, which is part of being heard distinctly over the radio.

Specifically, listen to the way he pronounces the word "song", where he always emphasizes the ending "g" by saying it "son-guh". . .

Did McCartney discover that intuitively or did George Martin tell him about it?

"Who Owns My Heart" (Miley Cyrus) is another song I study by listening to it over-and-over with SONY MDR-7506 headphone at the highest volume on 2012 iMac and MacBook Pro.

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Do you hear the Pink Floyd style backup singers? What about the other backup singers and droning?

How many custom echoes and syrupy echoes do your hear?

How many vocal tracks do you hear for Miley, including overdubs, left-middle-right splits (which is done with true panning and tight digital delays [Haas Effect], not balance style false "panning"), and overdubs of the beginnings and endings of individual words, as well as consonants, sibilants, assonances, "ick-ick-ick . . .", melodic breathing, and all that stuff, which is producing and audio-engineering?

I suggest it's not 5 or 10 . . .

It's hundreds! :o

(4) With al this in mind, I wonder whether folks actually hear all the articulations, dynamics, playing styles, and so forth?

(5) It certainly is possible to hear all that stuff when it's played by a trained musician or sung by a trained singer, but I am not so convinced when it's virtual music in an ensemble of one type or another, especially where there are more than a handful of instruments.

(6) Instead of specifying dynamic marks, I use a combination of compressor-limiters, brickwall limiters, brickwall equalizers, and ducking where one instrument or voice controls automagically lowering and raising the volume levels of other instruments and voices.

(7) For articulations and playing styles, I select chromatically-sampled libraries where the musician is playing in the desired articulation or playing style.

(8) It's not a matter of the music notation marks being stupid or whatever--instead it's a matter of doing it another way that is less visually cluttered and more audio-engineering and producing focused.

(9) And there is the matter of hearing it reproduced by amplifiers and loudspeaker, which occurs even when you listen with studio-quality headphones and Apple Airpods.

STUDIO ONE PROFESSIONAL 6

I have switched from doing music notation in NOTION to doing it directly in Studio One using its embedded version of NOTION, which does everything I need to do and is vastly easier to use . . .

[NOTE: These are best enjoyed when listening with studio-quality headphones or Apple Airpods, since there are motion and stereo (headphone-style) effects where each ear has its own separate and independent audio. The first one is done with Studio One Professional 5 and NOTION 6 in a ReWire session; but the second one is done entirely within Studio One Professional 6 with no NOTION, at all . . . ]

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Lots of FUN! :)

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The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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by davidlarson6 on Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:16 pm
Surf.Whammy wroteIn particular, most of the important audio occurs below 500-Hz, which makes everything above 500-Hz focused more on clarity and distinctness.


Did you throw this one in as a test to see if we were reading your post? :P

Most of the range of the violin, flute, oboe, and piccolo are above that frequency, as well as a bit more than two octaves of the piano.

DKLarson

Windows 10, i9, 64GB, 3X 1TB SSDs; Macbook Pro M1 Pro, 32GB, 1TB SSD
Audient iD14, Atom SQ, Keystep 37, Studiologic SL88, Moog Sub Phatty, Kawai MP11SE, Roli Seaboard.
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by shanecoombs on Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:50 pm
herbievantetering wrote> couldn't play back the dynamics they wrote
> down correctly they would, like me, start
> hoping for someone to come along and fix
> it so that it could. 

Those are just artifacts of an orchestra with amnesia.

Dynamics can be fixed with different dynamic maps (sound variations) etc. per articulation; as it is often the sample, sampler or VSTi volume or -setting. As for the 'bugs', those can be solved with a combination of writing different and alternate configurations.

It's difficult to get instruments to lineup with so many sound variations and inconsistencies between samples (and VSTi's) and with minimal tooling and minimal documentation.
With Notion one has to measure the plugin behaviours and the volumes of the dynamics of each articulation of each instrument with a solid testset and this is a daunting task without the proper tooling.
On top of this, VSTi's and Notion's samples etc. are often ambiguous in how they respond to what types of control.

Sometimes users will just have to either fix it themselves or wait for a new version or work with what's available.

There is no magic solution for inconsistencies; sound variations solve some problems though, so let's hope that Notion 7 allows for more control, more clarity, better mapping and fixes for the existing bugs.

No matter what, Notion 6 still has loyal users like me.
Just spending more time implementing solutions with what's available can help.

Although I must admit; developers don't make it easy for users.


If your sample library requires changes in MIDI channel to play back different articulations, then Notion does not apply the dynamic map to the playback for that articulation. There is no different configuration which can fix this. There is a workaround that amounts to manually entering MIDI data for every. single. articulation change on each staff. I did this for a while, programming hundreds of manual changes per individual staff in 20+ staff orchestral scores. Does it work? Yes, but at that point what you're no longer using that special feature that Notion has which would have so impressed Mozart et al, and now you're doing something closer to programming a DAW. Playback from a DAW would ALSO have impressed Beethoven greatly, but of course there are all sorts of different DAWs and we're talking about reasons to use Notion here over a choice like Cubase or something.
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by Surf.Whammy on Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:33 pm
davidlarson6 wrote
Surf.Whammy wroteIn particular, most of the important audio occurs below 500-Hz, which makes everything above 500-Hz focused more on clarity and distinctness.

Did you throw this one in as a test to see if we were reading your post? :P

Most of the range of the violin, flute, oboe, and piccolo are above that frequency, as well as a bit more than two octaves of the piano.

It's not a trick fact . . . :)

THOUGHTS

More correctly, it's 20-Hz to 500-Hz, and until sometime in the early-1970s it was standard for studio monitor systems to have a flat equal-loudness curve running from 20-Hz to 20,000-Hz, the "normal" range of human hearing . . .

[NOTE: These studio monitors are the portable versions of the Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater, and they are calibrated full-range studio monitors with a flat equal loudness curve running from 20-Hz to 20,000-Hz. I know they are calibrated, because Abbey Road Studios was controlled and managed by degreed Electrical Engineers, Acoustic Physicists, and folks who know about this stuff. As described and explained in "Recording the Beatles" (Curvebender Publishing), these engineers and acoustic physicists were fanatical and quite obsessive-compulsive about having military-style procedures and rules about everything involved in recording, to the level of having a procedure that studio technicians were instructed to follow when setting-up a microphone stand. They also had elaborate procedures that "pop singers" were instructed to follow, including no dancing, fighting, and perform other unnecessary motions when singing, as well as how to position themselves in front and at 45-degree angles (when two or more were singing), which you can observe by watching a live Beatles performance. It's also the reason John Lennon pretended he was riding a horse. George Harrison did a bit of dancing but not obsessively. I think it's accurate to suggest Abbey Road Studios treated the Beatles with the same level of detail and quality control as McDonald's manages its food, beverages, and restaurants. In particular, McDonald's has had an intimate relationship with The Coca-Cola Company since the 1950s and includes a custom syrup mix specifically for serving on ice, stainless steel containers for the Coca-Cola syrup, water filtered four times so the Coca-Cola will be the same anywhere on this planet, keeping the syrup and water refrigerated from storage area to fountain dispensers, controlling the carbonation level, and providing plastic straws that are wider than the straws at other restaurants (larger gulps, better mouth feel, and ensures Coca-Cola is drawn from the bottom of the plastic cup where it is coldest. Totally obsessive vast attention to details, procedures, and everything else, but it works . . . ]

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[NOTE: Les Paul did the same thing but monaural. They are portable "Voice of the Theater" units because in those days there would be two of them behind the screen in a movie theater with an audience capacity of 500 to 1,000 people. They were very powerful loudspeakers, but the amplifiers had volume level controls, so you could use them in recording studio control rooms or even in a walk-in closet. Beatles were monaural at first but later did monaural and stereo mixes, and this Les Paul studio was monaural . . . ]

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This was abandoned primarily due to the basic rules of acoustic physics, which are (a) that low frequencies require moving a lot of air and (b) moving a lot of air requires big and heavy components, woofer loudspeakers and big cabinets if you prefer . . .

The expense of manufacturing and shipping loudspeakers that provided 20-Hz to 500-Hz response led companies simply to drop support for lower frequencies, based one might suggest on the idea that most listeners are too ignorant to miss the lower frequencies . . .

This caused me considerable trouble, because it did not occur to me that anyone would design and build literally worthless studio monitor systems . . .

I was accustomed to honest studio monitor systems and for a few decades was just too naive and trusting to realize the truth . . .

Over 20 years ago, I discovered SONY MDR-7506 headphones and for the most part switched to using headphones exclusively . . .

This worked to some extent, but it was not a perfect solution . . .

Doing some research led to discovering the patently evil and highly deceptive trick of simply ignoring low frequencies for studio monitor systems . . .

In a sense, I knew this but was not ready to accept it in an immediately conscious way . . .

Until I had an epiphany, my mixes basically sounded horrible; and nothing I could devise changed this, including having technical consultations with the folks at MOTU . . .

The best advice from MOTU was to stop using large sets of microphones and cascading, external mixers--instead to use two microphones connected to my MOTU 828mkII external digital audio and MIDI interface, which advice made sense considering the sound isolation studio is 6 ft. wide by 7ft. high by 12ft. long--essentially smaller than a walk-in closet . . . :P

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This helped, and it ensured I was getting good recording levels; but it did not solve the problem . . .

In a real sense, the problem is tied to electric guitars being transposing instruments where guitar players are taught that "Middle C" is the note at the third fret of the low-pitch "A" string when actually Middle C is the note at the first fret of the high-pitch "b" string . . .

The required epiphany became more likely when I discovered research done at the University of Heidelberg in Germany on the ways humans hear sounds and music in particular . . .

Specifically, the researchers determined there are two general types of listeners or hearers:

(1) fundamental tone hearers

(2) overtone hearers

The category names are misleading, which took me a while to understand, because (1) fundamental tone hearers synthesize missing fundamental tones but (2) overtone hearers do not synthesize missing fundamentals . . .

I am a fundamental tone hearer, and at first I thought this was fabulous and indicated without doubt that I could trust my hearing; but this was wrong, because when the fundamental tone is missing, the auditory perceptual apparatus of fundamental tone hearers synthesizes missing fundamental tones and by doing this create a deep, rich, and patently inaccurate auditory illusion . . .

In practice this means there is only one way a fundamental tone hearer can trust what they hear; and for producing and audio engineering this requires a calibrated full-range studio monitor system with a flat equal-loudness curve running from 20-Hz to 20,000-Hz at 85 dB SPL measured with a dBA weighting--at least some of the time--although 90 dB SPL with a dBC weighting is OSHA-approved for 8 hours per day to avoid hearing loss . . .

There are three general ways achieve this worthy goal:

(1) JBL Pro has this type of studio monitor system, and last time i checked cost approximately $20,000 (USD).

(2) PreSonus has a more affordable studio monitor system that requires a pair of PreSonus Sceptre S8 8" Powered Monitors and a pair of PreSonus Temblor T10 10" Powered Studio Subwoofers, where two of the deep bass subwoofers are needed if you expect to do accurate stereo mixing, which requires avoid the arbitrary deep bass"blending" that is done when there is only one deep bass subwoofer. Total cost--but not including equalizers and measuring equipment--is approximately $2,500 (USD), including cables and Tripp-Lite surge protectors. I recommend this solution for two reasons: (a) the PreSonus specifications are honest and trustworthy and (b) it's safer for folks who unlike me have no understanding or experience doing sound reinforcement.

(3) Kustom PA loudspeakers and deep bass subwoofers, which is the strategy I use. The loudspeakers and deep bass subwoofers cost less than $1,000 (USD), but you need OSHA-approved hearing protection and good knowledge of computer audio to configure the studio monitor system safely, but this cost does not include external processors, software from IK multimedia, and a digital SPL meter . . .

This is the studio monitor system I use in the sound isolation studio; and for practical purposes it's the sound system of a small nightclub, which means it can be dangerous if not carefully configured, hence the need to wear OSHA-approved hearing protection when configuring it . . .

[NOTE: There was a standing wave at approximately 70-Hz, so I put a lot of rolls of fiberglass insulation and cubes of cellulose insulation in the sound isolation studio, with the result that the audio is crisp with no booming, standing waves, and so forth . . . ]

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The calibration is done with a combination of a Behringer digital mastering processor, Behringer loudspeaker management unit, and IK Multimedia ARC 3 Advanced Room Correction System with Measurement Microphone (which I use to get an accurate snapshot of the studio acoustics after doing the Behringer calibration, which includes using pink noise) . . .

When properly and safely configured and calibrated, these three solutions make it possible for fundamental tone hearers to trust what they hear; and after a while, this leads to developing a set of habits and practices that make it possible to do accurate headphone mixing, but only after doing studio monitor mixing for a sufficient time to develop guidelines and strategies for virtual instruments, effects plug-in settings, and audio-engineering . . .

There is an audio test to determine whether one is a fundamental tone hearer, an overtone hearer, of a combination of both . . .

Missing Fundamental ~ Wikipedia

There is more information on the audio test at these links, and the test should be done when you are listening with studio-quality headphones like SONY MDR-7506 headphones (a personal favorite):

[ur=https://web.archive.org/web/20131213012614/http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t40690.html]How do you hear tones? (hydrogenaudio.org, "Internet Archive Wayback Machine") [/url]

[NOTE: This has an interesting example of Tuvan throat singing, which Wolfgang Saus calls "overtone singing" . . . ]

Hearing Test (Wolfgang Saus)

[NOTE: This is the link to the University of Heidelberg hearing test . . . ]

Hearing Test (Dr. Peter Schneider)

Regarding Tuvan throat singing, I think Paul McCartney does this at the start of a live performance of "Help" (Beatles) where he sings a two-part vocal harmony by himself, which causes John Lennon to do a double-take (occurs after the acoustic guitar in the background falls over, the fourth "Help!") . . .

phpBB [video]


FACT: If your studio monitor system does not reproduce frequencies below 60-Hz, 90-Hz, or 100-Hz, then you cannot hear the fundamental tone of the low-pitch "E" string on Paul McCartney's Höfner Beatle bass, which is 41.20344-Hz where "Concert A" is 440-Hz. Middle C (C4 in the US) is 261.6256-Hz at standard "Concert A" tuning, and Treble C is 523.2511-Hz.

Put into perspective for what one might call "popular" music--Rock, Metal, Rhythm & Blues, Jazz, and so forth) this is the notes on electric guitar up to the eighth fret on the high-pitch "e" string . . .

This is the reason I suggest frequencies above 500-Hz are focused primarily on clarity and distinctness, even with a lyrical soprano, violin, and piccolo when playing or singing higher notes.

In a very real sense, deep bass is the magic carpet upon which the music rides . . .

phpBB [video]


In general, the higher frequencies are what makes it possible to distinguish a violin from an oboe, electric guitar, or vocalist . . .

Harmonics and overtones allow us to distinguish specific instruments and voices and certainly are important, but what I consider to be the primary "action" occurs below 500-Hz . . .

500-Hz generally is where "midrange" begins and is where reproduction duties shift from (a) woofers to (b) horns and tweeters . . .

Lots of FUN! :)

Surf.Whammy's YouTube Channel

The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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by davidlarson6 on Fri Sep 08, 2023 9:16 am
An excellent example of talking past each other. Musical instruments are often incapable of playing notes at their resonant frequencies (which are referred to as "pedal tones.") Musical notes are heard at the primary frequency of the vibrating string or air column, not at the resonant frequency of the physical instrument, which may be nearly inaudible. The highest octaves in the orchestra or the piano are in the range of about 500-2000 Hz. These are the actual notes we hear in the music.

DKLarson

Windows 10, i9, 64GB, 3X 1TB SSDs; Macbook Pro M1 Pro, 32GB, 1TB SSD
Audient iD14, Atom SQ, Keystep 37, Studiologic SL88, Moog Sub Phatty, Kawai MP11SE, Roli Seaboard.
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by acequantum on Fri Sep 08, 2023 11:56 am
shanecoombs wrote
I think when Mozart and Beethoven found out that the magic box couldn't play back the dynamics they wrote down correctly they would, like me, start hoping for someone to come along and fix it so that it could. Notion 6 is very close to what you describe here, but it has some key disqualifying issues that lead me to not use it any more.


I know the timbre of this thread is generally complaints, but here is a solution to a problem mentioned by shanecoombs:

In another discussion you were talking about the hairpin problem and the rules. Well, if you use Cresc or Decresc instead of the hairpin symbol, it will work with a Technique channel change in the rules.

I was monitoring the MIDI of the "in between" spaces of the hairpin and saw that whenever there wasn't an event such as note on or note off, the hairpin fell back to the channel the track was assigned regardless of the rule. I tried to think of other commands that would have a CC change over time in between notes so I could test and observe what was happening with them and there really isn't any except maybe accel. but that isn't channel specific so that doesn't count.

Then I was reminded of cresc and decresc - and voila! The dynamics problem is solved with a MIDI channel change. Use either and they will hold the channel change under a technique. An articulation is only instantaneous for the current note.

If you want to see the hairpin on the score vs the cresc marking, you can put both in the same place. For the cresc marking, right click and choose Attachment > Hide. That will only leave the hairpin visible but will function properly with the hidden cresc.
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by shanecoombs on Fri Sep 08, 2023 4:56 pm
acequantum wrote
shanecoombs wrote
I think when Mozart and Beethoven found out that the magic box couldn't play back the dynamics they wrote down correctly they would, like me, start hoping for someone to come along and fix it so that it could. Notion 6 is very close to what you describe here, but it has some key disqualifying issues that lead me to not use it any more.


I know the timbre of this thread is generally complaints, but here is a solution to a problem mentioned by shanecoombs:

In another discussion you were talking about the hairpin problem and the rules. Well, if you use Cresc or Decresc instead of the hairpin symbol, it will work with a Technique channel change in the rules.

I was monitoring the MIDI of the "in between" spaces of the hairpin and saw that whenever there wasn't an event such as note on or note off, the hairpin fell back to the channel the track was assigned regardless of the rule. I tried to think of other commands that would have a CC change over time in between notes so I could test and observe what was happening with them and there really isn't any except maybe accel. but that isn't channel specific so that doesn't count.

Then I was reminded of cresc and decresc - and voila! The dynamics problem is solved with a MIDI channel change. Use either and they will hold the channel change under a technique. An articulation is only instantaneous for the current note.

If you want to see the hairpin on the score vs the cresc marking, you can put both in the same place. For the cresc marking, right click and choose Attachment > Hide. That will only leave the hairpin visible but will function properly with the hidden cresc.


As I said in the other thread, I've had no question that you could get this to work with techniques as of version 6 point something. However, it still doesn't work with articulations, so if you have a library where the dynamics are controlled by CC1 (which is probably most libraries released for the past decade or decade and a half) then you can't control their dynamics when you use articulations.

For example, put your regular "base" patch on channel 1, staccato on channel 2, accented notes on channel 3, pizzicato on channel 4, etc. Then set up rules to switch to the appropriate patches based on the notation. Notion will set MIDI CC1 correctly while you are using the base patch on channel 1, but as soon as you use staccato or pizzicato or whatever it will keep sending any dynamic changes to channel 1 and you can't control the dynamics.

I'm also surprised to hear hairpins weren't working with different techniques. That was actually something they'd fixed in a patch, leaving only articulations not working with hairpins. If hairpins don't work right with different techniques, it must have gotten broken again in a subsequent patch!
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by acequantum on Sun Sep 10, 2023 4:11 pm
I think I misspoke. Everything works as expected with hairpins and cresc decresc when used under a technique and switching a channel. The channel will hold

An articulation is a one time thing and the channel switches appropriately on the note with the articulation.

So, If i set a rule where a staccato marking articulation is happened upon, My action is to change the channel to say 5; where it would switch the instrument in the VST to a staccato violin or whatever.

That will happen on that note. If I also have a hairpin and set the Haripin definition CC to 1 at the top of the rules, the dynamics will play at the appropriate value on channel 5 as well. I'll post an example shortly.
Last edited by acequantum on Tue Sep 12, 2023 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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