Discuss Notion Music Composition Software here.
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JohnBW wroteCome on PreSonus, are you going to let the competition eat you?


Dorico has gone from "doesn't exist" to v4.3 just within the lifespan of Notion 6. That ship has sailed. I don't see PreSonus having the expertise to compete with those other software applications, on top of the core industry position of Sibelius and Finale.

Dorico has only been able to do what it has done due to innovation and insane development pacing. I don't see PreSonus being able to replicate any of that.
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by michaelmyers1 on Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:18 pm
nathanielwalker2 wrote
JohnBW wroteCome on PreSonus, are you going to let the competition eat you?


Dorico has gone from "doesn't exist" to v4.3 just within the lifespan of Notion 6. That ship has sailed. I don't see PreSonus having the expertise to compete with those other software applications, on top of the core industry position of Sibelius and Finale.

Dorico has only been able to do what it has done due to innovation and insane development pacing. I don't see PreSonus being able to replicate any of that.

I downloaded a trial version of Dorico and tested it recently.

It took contact with Dorico tech support to get it to work to begin with (audio engine fails).

The piano roll editing is OK, but not particularly robust.

There is no connectivity with a DAW for deeper production editing.

Cubase/Dorico Expression Maps are as equally obscure as Notion Rulesets, and Studio One Sound Variations are considerably easier to use. (The templates identified by JohnBW below are helpful, I'm hoping for something similar from Notion in the next release, but we'll see!)

Dorico doesn't provide the ability to use plug-in VST effects such as reverbs or delays, or other signal-processing.

Dorico doesn't support use of control surfaces.

Probably the biggest issue for me is that Dorico doesn't sound particularly nice when playing back. It's still my opinion that Notion plays music better than any other notation program out there thanks to the native libraries and expansions available...

Oh and Dorico Pro is ridiculously expensive...

Long story short, my Dorico trial expired and I'm back to waiting (impatiently) for N7, and hoping for some really meaningful improvements!
Last edited by michaelmyers1 on Sat Dec 10, 2022 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by JohnBW on Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:45 pm
michaelmyers1 wroteI downloaded a trial version of Dorico and tested it recently. It took contact with Dorico tech support to get it to work to begin with (audio engine fails). The piano roll editing is OK, but not particularly robust. There is no connectivity with a DAW for deeper production editing. Cubase/Dorico Expression Maps are as equally obscure as Notion Rulesets, and Studio One Sound Variations are considerably easier to use. Probably the biggest issue for me is that Dorico doesn't sound particularly nice when playing back. It's still my opinion that Notion plays music better than any other notation program out there thanks to the native libraries and expansions available...

No problem at all getting Dorico to run here on Windows 10 with my audio interface. Playback templates are provided for some selected libraries. https://blog.dorico.com/playback-templates/

Dorico plays back nicely with the available Spitfire BBCSO playback templates. Agree that the out-of-the-box playback using the supplied HALion Sonic SE is not as good as the stock Notion instruments.

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by ennbr on Sat Dec 10, 2022 5:48 pm
Dorico doesn't provide the ability to use plug-in VST effects such as reverbs or delays, or other signal-processing.


Not sure what version you had tested but Yes Dorico supports VST3 and VSTi plugins I have over 800 plugins on my system and they are all usable in Dorico

And if I need an older VST2 plugin there is an option to add them into the list of usable plugins


I find it much easier to add external sample libs with Dorico than Notion I create an expression map or find one already done assign the articulations from the list of supported symbols and load the VSTi instruments per track like Notion

Bruce

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by acequantum on Sat Dec 10, 2022 9:03 pm
There's no need to continue a support for Dorico vein on the Notion 6 forums. If there isn't anything helpful to post for Notion, this thread shouldn't continue.
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by JohnBW on Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:25 am
acequantum wroteThere's no need to continue a support for Dorico vein on the Notion 6 forums. If there isn't anything helpful to post for Notion, this thread shouldn't continue.

Well nobody is making you follow the thread, right? Simply unsubscribe if it doesn't suit you!

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by ennbr on Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:59 am
even though I switched to Dorico Pro

I'm still hoping for a Notion 7 release my only concern now is it will be built from the Notion Mobile that was just released

Bruce

Computers:
Mini PC Ryzen 7 6800H, 64GB DDR5, 2TB M.2 boot, 4TB data Win 11
Laptop ASUS Ryzen 7 6800H, 64GB DDR5, 2TB M.2 4TB SSD data Win 11
Software: Studio One Pro 6, Notion 6.8, Melodyne Studio 5
Audio Interfaces: Moto 1248, M4
External Storage: Samples 3x 2TB SSD's, Projects 4TB SSD
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by JohnBW on Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:51 am
ennbr wroteeven though I switched to Dorico Pro

I'm still hoping for a Notion 7 release my only concern now is it will be built from the Notion Mobile that was just released

Totally agree! I'm not bashing Notion, just disappointed that PreSonus has not given it the much needed attention it deserves!

I would welcome a Notion 7 release! :thumbup:
but not holding my breath

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by acequantum on Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:10 am
JohnBW wrote
acequantum wroteThere's no need to continue a support for Dorico vein on the Notion 6 forums. If there isn't anything helpful to post for Notion, this thread shouldn't continue.

Well nobody is making you follow the thread, right? Simply unsubscribe if it doesn't suit you!

Please don't resort to the ol' "if you don't like what I say, then don't listen..." argument. That's usually projected downward to silence adversity against a weak position; and really unbecoming of these forums.

Participation is the bread and butter of any forum, but philosophically, i feel said participation should be helpful or provide support. This post I'm typing right now doesn't do that but I felt it was important to address the "...unsubscribe..." suggestion (which is just silly).

If a Notion moderator were to follow this thread and be moved to review the functionality of Dorico or other notation programs and decide those features need to be incorporated into Notion, that would be great! But it's probably unlikely that this thread would do that especially with the tone of the title. I would think they would already be aware of the competition.

I still find the thread interesting reading though. :D
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by JohnBW on Mon Dec 12, 2022 8:46 am
acequantum wrote
If a Notion moderator were to follow this thread and be moved to review the functionality of Dorico or other notation programs and decide those features need to be incorporated into Notion, that would be great! But it's probably unlikely that this thread would do that especially with the tone of the title. I would think they would already be aware of the competition.

I think the OP was intended to hopefully do just that with the title, although a moderator does not actually have that sort of role. If it gets the attention of the dev team, then great, but otherwise this topic is little more than just an outlet for venting frustration by users that feel neglected. Any official word that something is in the works would be welcomed!

I would really like to believe that the PreSonus dev team is on it, but that would just amount to speculation, especially since their latest big development was adding notation to Studio One based on Notion. Which is great for DAW production, but begs the question of where they currently see Notion fitting in as part of their ongoing software portfolio.

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by rubenstubenchlak on Tue Dec 13, 2022 3:17 pm
ennbr wroteeven though I switched to Dorico Pro

I'm still hoping for a Notion 7 release my only concern now is it will be built from the Notion Mobile that was just released


My thoughts exactly.
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by JohnBW on Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:06 pm
MuseScore 4 is out now.

https://musescore.org/en/4.0

"Today, we are delighted to announce the release of MuseScore 4 along with our new orchestral playback library Muse Sounds!."

Announcing MuseScore 4 - a gigantic overhaul!
https://youtu.be/Nc08RhOQDR4

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by nathanielwalker2 on Fri Dec 16, 2022 2:06 am
JohnBW wrote
michaelmyers1 wroteI downloaded a trial version of Dorico and tested it recently. It took contact with Dorico tech support to get it to work to begin with (audio engine fails). The piano roll editing is OK, but not particularly robust. There is no connectivity with a DAW for deeper production editing. Cubase/Dorico Expression Maps are as equally obscure as Notion Rulesets, and Studio One Sound Variations are considerably easier to use. Probably the biggest issue for me is that Dorico doesn't sound particularly nice when playing back. It's still my opinion that Notion plays music better than any other notation program out there thanks to the native libraries and expansions available...

No problem at all getting Dorico to run here on Windows 10 with my audio interface. Playback templates are provided for some selected libraries. https://blog.dorico.com/playback-templates/

Dorico plays back nicely with the available Spitfire BBCSO playback templates. Agree that the out-of-the-box playback using the supplied HALion Sonic SE is not as good as the stock Notion instruments.

Dorico Pro bundles HALion Symphonic Orchestra.

MuseScore 4 was released so anyone in that tier of the market is better off going there. It has the best stock sounds of any Notation software outside of StaffPad, and is going to out-compete Notion 6 easily in the composition and engraving space.

As to his issues with Dorico, the audio engine issue can be due to a driver problem.

And saying Expression Maps are equally obscure as Notion Rules is blatant intellectual dishonesty. I can't even take such a statement serious. If this were true, we would have a lot more rules and templates available. Notion 6 existed before Dorico was on the market.

Look at how many libraries have been ported over to Dorico by the community there. Thats ignoring developers that have released 1st party playback templates.

I do think Notion Mobile is great - particularly on Android, where it has almost no competition (one can get Dorico or StaffPad elsewhere, or use Sibelius if you have a support plan) - but competitors have outgunned it on i[Pad]OS as well. Only selling point are the stock sounds - except with StaffPad.

DAW integration is ignorable for Dorico. Cubase Imports and Exports MusicXML. The only reason this matters for Notion is because Studio One doesn't support MusicXML at all. The score editor in Studio One doesn't support most scoring symbols, resulting in many things not mapping to Sound Variations - so it really isn't any better.

The point of Dorico is that you can do this in Dorico, without having to go between software applications. The MIDI composition features are not intended to be Cubase-level. They are intended to provide enough to get the job done in Dorico. It is designed to stand on its own, not be co.panion software to another application.

The stuff Notion provides in this area (Sequencer Staves) can be done in the Cubase score editor. You don't need Dorico to get Notation as good as Notion in Cubase Pro... It has that on its own.

Seeing what MS4 has brought to the table, I see little to no room for even a Notion 7 (desktop) in the current market. You basically have to be Dorico/Sibelius/Finale or a specialist/mobile product to offer any value in the current market. Even the stock sounds have ceased to be a selling point...

The lack of MusicXML support in Studio One is problematic precisely because Notion isn't really that great on that end, is barely developed, and is required to get MusicXML out of Studio One.
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by michaelmyers1 on Fri Dec 16, 2022 7:18 pm
I can be addressed in the first person. I also don't appreciate being accused of "blatant intellectual dishonesty". I am, frankly, anything but, and my perceptions and opinions are as relevant as anyone's here.

You may be shocked to find that there are those members of the PRESONUS NOTION community who are, for whatever reasons, emotionally and financially invested in the products this site is dedicated to. I for one am looking forward to development of the Presonus platforms that I've been involved with and grown to love over the last ten years. I'm also not exactly inclined to invest close to $1000 for alternatives at this point and have to learn a completely new workflow in other platforms.

Have I wished for things that aren't yet? Of course. Have I tried other products? Of course. But the familiarity of the software and the ease of workflow keeps me coming back, so as I said before, I will wait for Notion 7 and hope for the best.

iMac (Retina 5K 27", 2019) 3.6 ghz I9 8-core 64 gb RAM Fusion Drive
with small AOC monitor for additional display
macOS Ventura 13.4
2 - 500 gb + 2 - 1 tb external SSD for sample libraries
M Audio AirHub audio interface
Nektar Panorama P1 control surface
Nektar Impact 49-key MIDI keyboard
Focal CMS40 near-field monitors
JBL LSR310S subwoofer
Notion 6 + Studio One 5 Pro

http://www.tensivity.com
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by JohnBW on Fri Dec 16, 2022 8:21 pm
michaelmyers1 wroteYou may be shocked to find that there are those members of the PRESONUS NOTION community who are, for whatever reasons, emotionally and financially invested in the products this site is dedicated to. I for one am looking forward to development of the Presonus platforms that I've been involved with and grown to love over the last ten years.

I do not disagree with any of your opinions. I bought into Notion when I joined the Studio One community around 4 years ago.

But it would be very nice to hear something from PreSonus except [crickets]. Nuff said! ;)

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by nathanielwalker2 on Sat Dec 17, 2022 3:09 pm
michaelmyers1 wroteI can be addressed in the first person. I also don't appreciate being accused of "blatant intellectual dishonesty". I am, frankly, anything but, and my perceptions and opinions are as relevant as anyone's here.

You would say that…

It doesn’t change the facts. There is no comparison between the two when it comes to “obscurity” if you’ve ever bothered to look at and compare the two. If you’re going to maintain that position, I will maintain my position. You are exaggerating purposely.

Not only is creating Playback Templates and Expression Maps easier and more intuitive in Dorico, but this is also far better documented there - both in the documentation and on YouTube.

Dorico also imports Cubase Expression Maps, so most popular libraries already have a decent starting point. You don’t even have to do all the work yourself. Frankly, it has - by far - the best system for integrating third party libraries.

There is a reason why most (all but one) stock playback templates haven’t been updated for Notion 6 and the community hasn’t stepped in to fix them…

You may be shocked to find that there are those members of the PRESONUS NOTION community who are, for whatever reasons, emotionally and financially invested in the products this site is dedicated to. I for one am looking forward to development of the Presonus platforms that I've been involved with and grown to love over the last ten years. I'm also not exactly inclined to invest close to $1000 for alternatives at this point and have to learn a completely new workflow in other platforms.

Not shocking, unfortunate. My emotions are divorced from these products. It’s about how well they can allow me to get work done. I don’t fall in love with software.

Not even sure why that’s relevant.

I know where I am posting. I expect these responses, but you can’t just exaggerate and not expect to be called out simply because you’re a PreSonus fanboy and most people will likely defend that POV on a forum favorable to their products.

Saying Notion and Dorico are on par in that area gives the impression that it is just as good there, which completely de-prioritizes needs for improvement in that area relative to competing products. Not only is it blatantly intellectually dishonest, but it’s incredibly misleading and disrespectful to other users with eyes.

I don’t care how much money you’ve spent. We’ve all spent hundreds on PreSonus hardware and software.
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by Surf.Whammy on Sat Dec 17, 2022 6:03 pm
nathanielwalker2 wroteNot only is creating Playback Templates and Expression Maps easier and more intuitive in Dorico, but this is also far better documented there - both in the documentation and on YouTube.

Dorico also imports Cubase Expression Maps, so most popular libraries already have a decent starting point.

A few questions . . . :roll:

QUESTIONS AND THOUGHTS

[FAIR WARNING: By intentional design these are trick questions, since as a registered Steinberg VST Developer, I have access to all the software engineering documentation and tools, and I know how to read and understand it. I know that VST Expression is unique to Steinberg's Visual Studio Technology (VST) and for the most part nobody but Steinberg uses it, because it's vastly complex. I also am a member of the MIDI Association in good standing, and I have all the relevant MIDI Specifications and corresponding documentation; so the question about dynamics is mostly a quick I.Q./B.S. Test, because as explained in my remarks (see below), unless there is a separate and independent set of sampled sounds for each dynamic where the trained musician played the instrument in the specific dynamic and corresponding playing style and was recorded and digitized--which never happens generally or at best only happens in high-quality chromatically sampled libraries--then suggesting specifying dynamics in Playback Templates and Expression Maps actually does something relevant to high-quality audio is primarily disingenuous malarkey spewed in a pompous attempt to appear to be an expert . . . :ugeek: ]

(1) It appears that Playback Templates and Expression Maps are unique to Steinberg's Dorico and Cubase . . .

Is this correct?

To what does it compare in NOTION?

(2) When a dynamic changes from pianissimo ("pp") to mezzo-forte ("mf"), is a different set of sampled sounds used, where in the example there is a separate and independent set of sampled sounds in which the trained musician played notes pianissimo and another separate and independent set of sampled sounds where the trained musician played notes mezzo-forte?

If it's (a) all one set of sampled sounds at a fixed recorded volume and (b) all that changes is the MIDI volume (ranges from 0 to 127), which simply increases or decreases the native volume level of the sample, then it's a load of garbage.

This is what dynamics do in NOTION, which also is a load of garbage--although it might be possible to force using a different set of dynamic-specific sampled sounds via a custom rule.

FACT: Using an example for bowed violin, there are significant differences in the way a trained violinist plays forte as compared to playing piano. I played violin for a while but switched to string bass, and this is the way it works with bowing. If the recorded audio in the samples was done when the violinist was playing forte, then simply lowering the MIDI volume does not change the bowing behavior from forte to piano. Instead it just acts as a relative volume control that tells the VSTi virtual engine what volume level for the audio to return to the requestor (NOTION, Studio One, Dorico, Cubase, and so forth), which overall is garbage.

Image
MIDI-Dynamic Slider

Making it all the more absurd, if the set of sampled sounds is diatonically sampled--where only every other note actually is played, recorded, and digitized--then half the notes are computer generated by logarithmic interpolation with the most likely result that they sound like a 1960s Farfisa Combo Organ . . .

phpBB [video]


Lots of FUN! :P

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by davidlarson6 on Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:43 am
Surf.Whammy wrote(2) When a dynamic changes from pianissimo ("pp") to mezzo-forte ("mf"), is a different set of sampled sounds used, where in the example there is a separate and independent set of sampled sounds in which the trained musician played notes pianissimo and another separate and independent set of sampled sounds where the trained musician played notes mezzo-forte?


Yes, that is exactly the way it's done in professional quality, high-end sample libraries, which is one reason they're so expensive.

Not only are instrument sounds sampled at all different dynamics, but also using all the various playing techniques. Using your bowed instrument example, there would be a full range of samples made using con sordino, up-bow, down-bow, vibrato, non-vibrato, col legno, sul pont, sul tasto, etc., etc.

And then the expression maps link playback to those actual samples.

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by Surf.Whammy on Mon Dec 19, 2022 11:14 am
davidlarson6 wroteYes, that is exactly the way it's done in professional quality, high-end sample libraries, which is one reason they're so expensive.

Not only are instrument sounds sampled at all different dynamics, but also using all the various playing techniques. Using your bowed instrument example, there would be a full range of samples made using con sordino, up-bow, down-bow, vibrato, non-vibrato, col legno, sul pont, sul tasto, etc., etc.

And then the expression maps link playback to those actual samples.


Excellent! :+1

THOUGHTS

I allowed a bit of wiggle room in my set of questions, so it's all good!

A few years ago, I counted and added all the various offerings from Vienna Symphonic Library (VSL), and it was around $20,000 USD . . .

I do not have any VSL products, but I did some research on them; and some of their products include everything and are chromatically-sampled (definitely) . . .

Mostly, I was intrigued by their server technologies (Vienna Ensemble Pro) . . .

Good comments and information . . .

Lots of FUN! :)

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by ennbr on Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:22 pm
I'm running 2 VePro servers both are 8 core 64GB win10 systems with SSD's for the sample libs its one of the better things I've done

I also have most of the VSL Synchron series sample libs along with many many others from all the major sample lib developers

But this thread is not about sample libs so I'll stop there :)

Bruce

Computers:
Mini PC Ryzen 7 6800H, 64GB DDR5, 2TB M.2 boot, 4TB data Win 11
Laptop ASUS Ryzen 7 6800H, 64GB DDR5, 2TB M.2 4TB SSD data Win 11
Software: Studio One Pro 6, Notion 6.8, Melodyne Studio 5
Audio Interfaces: Moto 1248, M4
External Storage: Samples 3x 2TB SSD's, Projects 4TB SSD

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