Discuss Notion Music Composition Software here.
10 posts
Page 1 of 1
I am trying to step-input somewhat complex chords which are very hard to play accurately in real time. In real time recording you can designate a split point and the notes get distributed in both clefs of the grand piano staff.

But in step record they all go to either the treble clef all all to the bass clef, whatever "voice" I click on. SURELY this basic function is available in Notion 6? But it appears not. I find this extraordinary if true. Cubase versions from 15 years ago split clefs perfectly in step time. Maybe I have missed something but I just cannot get notes properly spread over the grand staff. Any suggestions please?

StudioOne Pro 5.1 - Notion 6 - Cubase - Win10 - i7 Intel 6 core -16 gigs RAM - Behringer 2x2 audio interface + Focusrite 2x2
User avatar
by leonardyoung on Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:32 am
Anyone?

StudioOne Pro 5.1 - Notion 6 - Cubase - Win10 - i7 Intel 6 core -16 gigs RAM - Behringer 2x2 audio interface + Focusrite 2x2
User avatar
by Surf.Whammy on Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:40 pm
Until I connect my USB keyboard, this is a suggestion that might work, along with one that definitely works . . . :)

THOUGHTS

Create a Piano staff but in NOTION Score Setup change it from a grand staff to a standard staff, and then step-record to it . . .

When you finish step-recording, save the NOTION score and then go into NOTION Score Setup, where you will change the standard staff to a grand staff . . .

This might move the bass clef notes to the bass clef . . .

EXPORT-IMPORT IN NOTION

If not, there is another way to do it, which is to export the notes from the standard staff as MIDI, followed by importing the MIDI and converting the MIDI to notation . . .

[NOTE: This is how the chords look when on a standard staff. Observe that the name of the staff is "Piano" . . . ]

Image

Export the notes as MIDI, which creates a ".mid" file.

Then import the exported MIDI, and it will appear first in sequencer format in a new NOTION score . . .

[NOTE: This is how it looks when you import the MIDI . . . ]

Image

Then do the Convert to Notation step . . .

[NOTE: This is how it looks after the Convert to Notation step . . . ]

Image

Now it's split and in music notation format, at which time you can copy the notes and then paste them to your original score, but to a grand staff . . .

You can have two NOTION scores open at the same time, provided they are not vastly complex with lots of instruments . . .

In some respects, this is not the most elegant way to split the notes of a standard staff to the respective staves of a grand staff, but it works . . .

My general perspective is that if I can find one way to do something I need to do, then I'm happy . . .

[NOTE: I worked in a grocery warehouse to pay for my university courses, and my job was to put individual, sticky price tags on Crest® toothpaste, which was before there were barcodes. I did this for several years during the day and took night courses. All told I put individual, sticky price tags on 25 to 50 million tubes of Crest toothpaste. It was extraordinarily boring, repetitious work, but it paid well. From this experience, I discovered (a) that it's not so easy to bore me and (b) that I can do the same thing over-and-over as necessary. The latter ability made it possible for me to teach myself how to play lead guitar, which mostly is a matter of playing the same phrases over-and-over until you can play them rapidly without needing to think about it. My favorite example is playing three half-steps repetitiously for hours and hours over several days until I could play it rapidly without needing to think about it consciously. Boring? Truly, but so what. Now I can do lead guitar phrases rapidly without needing to think about it, hence over the long run it's a good strategy. I used the three half-steps phrases in my "Turning Japanese" musical homage to First Lady Laura Bush, which was when I was doing everything with real instruments . . . :P ]

phpBB [video]


As time allows, I will do some experiments using a USB keyboard and see if there is an easy solution . . .

Lots of FUN! :)

Surf.Whammy's YouTube Channel

The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
User avatar
by leonardyoung on Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:27 am
Thank you for that very thorough and detailed explanation and for the trouble you went to. I am very grateful.

I sort of guessed the export import method might work, but I'm also guessing that after all this palava you still have to edit yet again in order to get the stems pointing the right way up. I must say that for the standalone price (I virtually paid twice as it is also part of the Sphere subscription) of Notion it has glaring shortcomings of very basic functions which it appears Presonus are simply not interested in addressing.

You really cannot claim you have a comprehensive notation package when it won't even do basic things without running through hoops. Even the basic Cubase (not the score edition) from nearly two decades ago had a proper staff allocation of notes with automatic stem placement and it also had score quantize which saved you the trouble of having to make two entirely separate projects, one for performance and the other for scoring. Notion has none of this. I don't like to compare too much as each software package generally has its strengths, but MuseScore, which is free, can do a lot more than this.

It seems Presonus has abandoned Notion and frankly the much trumpeted score function within Studio One is underwhelming and again is less flexible and editable than the lowly Cubase Elements or AI can achieve.

It's a shame as the potential in Notion 6 is so promising. It's also a mark of this era that devs are more interested in "side chaining" or making zillions of effects plugins in an already saturated market for them in preference to the most elementary functions in a notation program. It's a reflection of the dumbed down age we live in!

StudioOne Pro 5.1 - Notion 6 - Cubase - Win10 - i7 Intel 6 core -16 gigs RAM - Behringer 2x2 audio interface + Focusrite 2x2
User avatar
by Surf.Whammy on Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:03 am
It helps to understand a bit of NOTION history . . . :)

THOUGHTS

As I understand it, NOTION originated as a way to provide instrumental accompaniment for live performances when it was not practical or possible to have a full orchestra or even an small ensemble . . .

I started using NOTION in 2010 for a similar reason--specifically the need to have a percussion section for a Flamenco song . . .

As you can hear in the music video I provided in my previous post, I play drums, electric bass, keyboards, rhythm guitar, and lead guitar, but mostly in non-Flamenco styles (primarily Rock, Jazz, Rhythm and Blues, Heavy Metal, and so forth, including the new musical genre I created a few months ago, called "Stupid") . . .

Flamenco has definite rhythm patterns, and for folks who favor that genre it's probably intuitive; but for me it's not intuitive, although I like the style . . .

Around that time, I discovered David Bisbal and his hit song, "Bulería" . . .

phpBB [video]


David Bisbal has an amazing voice, and this inspired me to compose a Flamenco song; but while I could play most of the basic instruments (electric bass, keyboards, rhythm guitar, and electric guitar), doing the percussion was not something I could do--then or now--without a lot of work, hence the idea to find an alternative, which led me first to MuseScore but then quickly to NOTION, even though at the time I had no idea what a "virtual instrument" was or how specifically to use one . . .

After a bit of learning, everything made sufficient sense to do my Flamenco song, which has a standard 12-beat Bulería rhythm pattern for the verses and a custom 36-beat Flamenco rhythm pattern for the interlude, which is fabulous . . .

phpBB [video]


Fabulous!

This website has Flamenco metronomes, which is the way I made sense of the standard 12-beat Bulería rhythm pattern:

Flamenco Metronomes (Ravenna Flamenco)

I do everything myself, so I have no specific need for sheet music--other than to provide examples in my posts to this forum . . .

For a while, Notion Music had a service where they provided expertise and consultants to do virtual music accompaniment for Broadway plays, concerts, and other purposes; and NOTION users can do this, themselves, once they understood the way the NOTION works . . .

[NOTE: For reference, this is from over 10 years ago . . . ]

phpBB [video]


This continues to be a significant use for NOTION, and there are unique controls and features for using NOTION in live performances . . .

As best as I can determine, other applications are focused primarily on engraving but have what I consider to be minimal abilities for performing, and then in cumbersome ways . . .

Combine NOTION with Studio One Professional and a thoughtful set of VSTi virtual instruments and VST effects plug-ins, and there you are . . . :+1

From this perspective, the orientation of note stems mostly is immaterial, because the focus is on virtual music rather than printing sheet music . . .

For me, NOTION, Studio One Professional, virtual instruments, and effects plug-ins are my band; and nothing compares to this specific combination . . .

Add ReWire, and it's golden . . .

Currently, I am composing songs in my Stupid musical genre and am quite happy with the levels of musical and lyrical stupidity I am able to achieve . . .

[NOTE: By design and intent, I am focusing on Simple and Stupid songs, but this strategy works with any genre. The only limitation is one's ability to have ideas, to compose and arrange, and to produce and engage productively in audio engineering. The technologies are not limiting. It takes longer for one person to do everything using this strategy, but when you map the hours and compare the time required when many people are doing the work, it's about the same total time. From my perspective, the key distinction is that one person can do everything. It might take me a few weeks to do a song with complex instrumentation, but if a musical group does the same song in one day, then overall if if takes me 10 days while it takes a group of 10 musicians 1 day, then it's the same amount of time--more wall clock time for me, but only because I do one thing at a time, which is the way it works when one person is doing everything . . . ]

phpBB [video]


People have different perspectives--and this is good--but for what I need to do, nothing beats NOTION and Studio One Professional . . .

If there were an easier way to do it, then I would do it that way; but there is no other way to do what I need to do that is practical and possible with existing technologies . . .

If my primary focus were engraving, then I would not use NOTION; but that's not my primary focus, so it's all good . . .

Lots of FUN! :)
Last edited by Surf.Whammy on Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Surf.Whammy's YouTube Channel

The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
User avatar
by leonardyoung on Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:11 am
Thanks again for that detailed and interesting reply. Yes indeed engraving capability is what I am after. But that is not so esoteric as some would believe. It shouldn't be difficult to achieve.

I think the Meatloaf promotion and info about Notion's service is frankly little more than PR. I can see clearly what Notion is capable of. I have thoroughly read the manual several times and have spent a long time using it. It is very awkward to use when you get deeper than a simple collection of unedited notes without dynamics or phrasing. It is probably even worse than Sibelius in this respect but for different reasons. Its menus are too simplistic and its options nowhere near comprehensive enough, while the more straightforward options are not very well implemented.

I cannot see that a comprehensively featured DAW should have so much difficulty producing an engraving function allied to its score edit. It really is not that difficult compared to the wealth of other sophisticated features that Studio One employs. I think broadly it is a demand and supply issue. Most contemporary musicians and amateur composers have not the slightest understanding of, or interest in, notation let alone orchestration, or even simple ensemble arranging. This is surprising as there has been a surge over the last two decades in mixing orchestral and ethnic instruments with other more traditional rock, pop and loop/sample based output, so decent scoring apps are certainly not obsolete.

So why don't I use Dorico or Sibelius you might ask? Well, Sibelius lost its way years ago with ever increasing unnecessary and clumsily implemented "features", and Dorico is eye wateringly expensive and still nowhere near finished or without major flaws. I was thrilled at first with Notion, before realising that many core functions are not too intelligently put together. I think MuseScore is very promising but in a way has scuppered itself through being open-sourced. It's nice that it is free but I'd rather it cost something, as that cash can be used to accelerate its further development.

It is fair to expect that any scoring option worth the name works without convoluted workarounds.

Cubase score was a nearly fully-featured semi-engravable application, but I think for entirely commercial and profit reasons, engraving has now become a separate and mostly very expensive standalone application, yet as we see from for example Tantacrul's savage (and largely justified) criticism of Sibelius - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKx1wnXClcI - and its nonsensical user interface, many engraving apps fall way short, offering a large array of sophisticated functions while at the same time failing to make easy workflow or core functions work very well.

When I began my career in professional arranging and composing, everything was done on a large sheet of printed staves and I worked with a pencil and rubber. I think even if I learned every trick and short cut available in Notion, it would still be quicker to stick to pencil and paper, thereby defeating the whole point. On the other hand I had to employ a copyist to produce the parts or do it myself for hours and hours, and that function seems to work pretty well with most engraving apps. Meanwhile MIDI and Audio DAWS have become so easy to use and so potentially quick and efficient, it is only the brave who would say scoring functionality has made much progress in comparison.

All a score app has to do is to get the very basics right - and that means automatic, efficient and intelligent assignment of voices to the right place with stems effortlessly pointing in the right direction, and easy (and much quicker) ways of applying dynamics, articulation and layout options. Notion cannot achieve this. It really cannot. While there are some impressive examples producing full scores from it, you just know that the person concerned has gone through hell to produce them.

StudioOne Pro 5.1 - Notion 6 - Cubase - Win10 - i7 Intel 6 core -16 gigs RAM - Behringer 2x2 audio interface + Focusrite 2x2
User avatar
by Surf.Whammy on Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:30 pm
I did some experiments with an iRig USB MIDI keyboard (IK Multimedia) . . . :)

THOUGHTS

(1) Step-record is one staff at a time, which for a grand staff maps to the treble staff being one staff, as is the bass staff. This is a simple input strategy for folks who are not particularly proficient keyboard players. If you play bass and treble notes and want them split over a grand staff, then do the export-import technique.

(2) Real-time record splits the bass and treble notes according to the split-point you specify in NOTION Preferences, and this is provided for proficient keyboard players. No MIDI export-import is required.

j did experiments with various option and parameter settings, and I think I covered everything; but I might have missed some combinations of options and parameters, although probably not . . .

Step-recording clearly is for inputting notes in a controlled way without respect to timing, note duration, and so forth; but note duration, timing, and so forth can be specified . . .

I prefer to input notes one-at-a-time using the mouse, and this works for me, even though in some respects it might be the slowest way to input notes. The advantage is that it's simple and has no timeliness constraint. It also makes it easy for me to adjust notes and to move chords upward and downward with the mouse . . .

The way the sound isolation studio is configured, the computer display, keyboard, and mouse are in front of where I sit, while my KORG Triton Music Workstation (88-weighted piano style keys) is in back of where I sit, which is due primarily to the sound isolation studio being the size of a small walk-in closet (6' wide by 7' tall and 12' long) . . .

I have some small USB and MIDI keyboards that I can put to the left of the computer keyboard, and I have a swivel "notebook" stand for this purpose, but at present there is a second Mac Pro (Early 2008), keyboard, mouse, and Apple Cinema Display in that space, so I used an iRig USB keyboard (IK Multimedia) for the experiments . . .

Image

[NOTE: When the music notation appears in NOTION, the busy staves were played in real-time on the fly on the Behringer mini-MIDI keyboard. This is an example I did to show a ReWire session with Live 10 (Ableton), NOTION, and Reason (Propellerhead Software, now Reason Studios) where NOTION is playing Reason synthesizers and Live 10 instruments, Reason is play its synthesizers and the singing, and so forth. It's not something a rational person would do, but it's possible, which for me makes it interesting. Most of the song is a Reason demo done by the Techno Squirrels, and I added additional instruments and did a bit of arranging, composing, producing, and audio engineering. I added a synthesizer and horn section, as well as a Fender Jazz Bass, Hammond B-3 organ, and some Addictive Drums. I was curious to determine if this was possible, and it clearly is possible. In fact, it makes a bit of sense . . . ]

phpBB [video]


I learned to sight-sing soprano treble staff as a child when I was in a liturgical boys choir, so for me treble staff is intuitive; but it's the only staff that is intuitive; so I do everything on treble staves, unless the VSTi virtual instrument requires using deep bass keyswitches (like Realivox Blue [RealiTone] my virtual female soprano . . .

I can specify in NOTION Score Setup that the notes for a staff are to be played lower or high than notated; and for bass I set it to two octaves lower than notated, while for guitar it's set to one octave lower than notated . . .

This way there are 12 notes and 10 or so octaves here in the sound isolation studio, two octaves of which are reserved to annoy or to entertain bats, birds, cats, dogs, dolphins, porpoises, sea turtles, and whales . . .

It's vastly simple, and it's mathematically and geometrically elegant . . .

While I am vastly smart, it's a very specific type of smart; and there are times when I am extraordinarily naive or simply ignorant, where one example is that over a half century ago the choirmaster for the liturgical boys choir told me I was a soprano, and since nobody told me anything different, I presumed I am a soprano . . .

This was the case until 2012 which was around the time I decided to become Pretend George Martin (the Beatles' choirmaster) for a while and realized I am a baritone, not a soprano . . . :P

Pretend George Martin also told me to practice singing and playing instrumental parts rather than doing everything in real-time on the fly on the first take--something I started doing about 15 years ago based on misunderstanding when an audio engineer told me that "Paul McCartney did everything on the "R.A.M" album on the first or second take, with the misunderstanding being that the audio engineer was referring to McCartney overdubbing a few vocal harmony parts on one song . . .

I heard "everything" and thought it was fantastic, hence decided to do everything in real-time on the fly at most one or two times, which at first was a bit frightening because I thought the FBI was going to knock on the door with a SWAT team and arrest me for being "too spontaneous", which of course never happened, and after a while it became normal . . .

Yet, the frightening aspect was important, so I imagined the Aliens From Outer Space beamed me and my Stratocaster, Marshall stack, and pedal rig onstage during an Elvis Presley concert, at which time a spotlight shone on me and Elvis looked over and said "Take it!", where making it all the more frightening, it was a song I had never heard more than a few measures . . .

In this scenario, I think most folks would wet their pants, but I had no such concerns . . .

Mostly, it's a matter of suspending nearly all conscious thought and judgment and letting your unconscious mind be in control for a while, which works because your unconscious mind knows more than your conscious mind knows . . .

On the good side, I am somewhat skilled in falsetto--not so much as Brian Wilson, but "ballpark" . . .

Another example is that for the first year or so when I was teaching myself how to play lead guitar, mostly I focused on changing and installing strings--which made me a very popular customer at the local music store--and this was because the entire thing was a bit overwhelming and I had no clear idea what to do other than change and install guitar strings, as well as set intonation and all that stuff . . .

Then one day I had what for me was a major epiphany, which is that with a handful of exceptions every lead guitar solo was played by a person with four fingers and a thumb on the fretboard hand--said exceptions being Django Reinhardt and a fellow who had an extra finger on one hand . . .

With this knowledge, playing lead guitar became possible, so it was just a matter of focusing and doing a lot of repetitious practicing to develop the dexterity, neural pathways, and so forth . . .

SUMMARY

There are two ways to record from a MIDI keyboard (also from a MIDI guitar), and one is for focused input, step-by-step, while the other is for real-time recording by proficient players . . .

There are reasons for both strategies, and it's possible to split notes after doing a step-recording . . .

If step-recording notes were split automagically, then this makes it virtually impossible for less proficient keyboard players to input treble staff notes separately from inputting bass staff notes; so it's a decision the PreSonus NOTION folks made, and I think it's the correct decision . . .

The export-import technique provides a solution for more advanced players; and I think proficient players can do the real-time strategy, which does the split automagically based on NOTION Preferences settings for MIDI Record . . .

Lots of FUN! :)
Last edited by Surf.Whammy on Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Surf.Whammy's YouTube Channel

The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
User avatar
by leonardyoung on Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:52 pm
Ha! A very entertaining post, for which I thank you.

I think you ought to know that I have been using MIDI, DAW-based audio and music tech ever since they were invented, and indeed taught it as well as composition, harmony and studio technique for many years.

If step-recording notes were split automagically, then this makes it virtually impossible for less proficient keyboard players to input treble staff notes separately from inputting bass staff notes; so it's a decision the PreSonus NOTION folks made, and I think it's the correct decision . . .

Not so fast!

A reasonable analogy is typing an email. It is like saying if I type an email with a rhythmically constant pace I can press shift and capital letters appear, but if I type without rhythm and as slowly as I like capitalisation is no longer available. And that's the right decision by the designers of word/office.

There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to enter notes in a single staff or a grand staff. It is an option in real time so there is no rational reason why it should not also be a user-option in step time.

Step input and real time input are broadly the same. You instruct the DAW to enter a note-on command, one while time is ticking away and the other with time suspended until the next note input. So there is no earthly reason why a Grand Staff should not respond in exactly the same way using both methods, or optionally a treble clef or bass clef separately if that is what one wishes. And just as you choose the clef notation split point (typically C3) while playing in real time, there is no reason to switch this option off just because you are entering notes one by one and step by step.

All that is required is for the programming routine for step input to be optionally similar to that in real time. Step input is there not just for the relatively inexperienced or those lacking keyboard skills. When you are writing more than plain harmony in root position and using counterpoint and extended polyphony, you need time to assess the impact of each note on the overall arrangement. In this regard step input is not there as a crutch but as in this context a potentially more efficient way of arranging

StudioOne Pro 5.1 - Notion 6 - Cubase - Win10 - i7 Intel 6 core -16 gigs RAM - Behringer 2x2 audio interface + Focusrite 2x2
User avatar
by russcantu on Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:21 am
:hunf: :hunf:
Last edited by russcantu on Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
by russcantu on Sat Mar 20, 2021 10:22 am
Notion should be able to know which notes are below middle C Right away there has to be an easier way 2021 Right

10 posts
Page 1 of 1

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests