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I was inspired by Surf's work lately with Realivox Blue to try some experimentation of my own with voices. I have a library from Virharmonic called Soloists of Prague which I haven't used much so I dusted it off and started playing with it on a recording I've been working on of a piece by Grainger, Colonial Song. This particular arrangement has alternative parts for Soprano and Tenor. Here's my recording:

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This was an easier road than Surf's because I haven't had to deal with words - the syllables in my recordings are random ah's and so's, la's and yi's.

Let me know what you think. I was after the greatest realism and an intimacy of interaction between the two singers. This wasn't easy to achieve with virtual vocalists, and the exposed "to the fore" nature of the vocals made it even more challenging. The violin and cello are also Virharmonic, from their Bohemian Soul Capture series. All set against Notion's own piano.

Notion was up to the task as usual!

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by Marcato on Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:46 am
Only version available as a benchmark here is for piano solo. And there are a vast number of wind band prestations. A recorded sung version just doesn't seem to exist in any catalog. Apples and oranges again.
So I can't really comment other that say that humming signers do their best and sound believable. And yes, you could bring the voices slightly forward in the mix. But this is not a foregone conclusion, I must say. Again, it could just be a matter of personal taste.

It makes me wonder what degree of success I'll be able to attain with boys choir chanting real latin text in a cathedral ambiance...

The various synthetic demos I've heard up to now remain unsatisfactory even when the quality of the samples is top notch. In most cases, the performing artist sitting at the keyboard is a good pop-rock musician-engineer but doesn't have a clue on what emulating classical sacred music let alone Gregorian chant should sound like in the finished product.

As for your delivery on the Notion piano, the least I can say is it is assertive and fiery...:-)

Au revoir
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by michaelmyers1 on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:00 am
Marcato, if you want to hear a "real" rendition of the original, check out Grainger Edition Volume 14, on Chandos. Della Jones soprano. Listening to that, seems that my piano is a bit over the top. :lol:

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by Surf.Whammy on Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:11 am
I listend to this first played through the calibrated, full-range studio monitors here in the sound isolation studio and then with headphones . . .

[NOTE: I suspect it's a headphone mix, although perhaps not . . . ]

THOUGHTS

I really like the first section and have no suggestions or observations other than being a bit envious of the tonality of the strings . . . :+1

I think the piano needs to be moved to the sides, which you can do with a M/S effects plug-in on the stereo piano track . . .

Every DAW application will have an effects plug-in that supports L/R and M/S stereo imaging, but one way to get a M/S imaging effects plug-in to use directly in NOTION is to get the free version of T-RackS CS 5, since its "Classic Equalizer" supports L/R and M+S stereo imaging . . .

T-RackS 5 CS ~ FREE Version (IK Multimedia)

[NOTE: It will be tempting to use the equalizer controls to tweak the tonal characteristics, but in this instance you only want to use the M/S functionality to position the piano on the sides . . . ]

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[NOTE: Instead of using the T-RackS 5 CS "Classic Equalizer" to do the M/S splitting, I used Pro-Q (FabFilter Software Instruments), because it has a better visual interface and when I save it as a user-defined preset it remembers the output gain settings. I increased the gain of the sides by +3 dB, but I lowered the gain of the middle to -6 dB. The "Q" values are the same, and they determine the width and slopes of the EQ curves. The center frequency of the two "Bell" curves is 250-Hz. For all practical purposes, this is a filter that "mid-scoops" the piano in the center but boosts it a tiny bit at the sides, which then makes sonic space available for Realivox Blue (Realitone) to sing at top-center (headphones) or center (stereo studio monitors) . . . ]

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There's another way to position the piano at far-left and far-right; and it's done by having a second piano staff exactly the same as the original piano staff (same piano, same notes), but using the NOTION 6 Mixer track panning controls to pan one piano track to far-left and the other piano track to far-right . . .

This second strategy works best, but there's more to it than just moving the two stereo tracks of identical piano to far-left and far-right . . .

If you just pan one piano to far-left and then pan the other piano to far-right, when the volume levels are the same for both pianos and both pianos are playing the same notes, the result is that you hear the what effectively is one piano at top-center (headphones) or in the center (stereo studio monitors) . . .

Among other things, while this might appear to be obvious, it took me several years to discover the rules; and one of the respective rules is that for the most part you do not want to work with stereo sampled sound libraries (or any type of stereo input) . . .

In retrospect, as best as I can determine, the only reason sampled sound libraries are nearly always stereo is that someone thought it would be a bright idea but never gave it much actual thought, mostly because that person had no experience as an audio producer . . .

Then everyone else followed the leader . . . :roll:

This might be fine for some purposes, but for all practical purposes the consequence is that when you use stereo sampled sound libraries, someone else has "pre-produced" the way the instruments and voices sound and are positioned on the virtual soundstage, which in the grand scheme of everything nearly never is the way you want to produce it . . .

It's easier to understand this when you focus on the way a vocalist is recorded in a recording studio . . .

There is a grand total of one microphone, and it's a monaural microphone . . .

After the singing is recorded, you have one monaural track; and the monaural track on the mixing board has a true panning control, which makes it possible to position the singing anywhere on the Rainbow Panning Arc (see below) . . .

You can run the monaural audio through a stereo effects plug-in, and then it's stereo; and you can use a true panning control instead of the standard "balance control" that DAW applications provide for stereo tracks . . .

[NOTE: The panning controls in the NOTION 6 Mixer are nearly true panning controls, but since there are not separate volume sliders for Left and Right, they are not true panning controls. However, they are better than every other DAW application, which ultimately means that you need to use true panning control plug-ins in DAW applications. Every DAW application has a true panning control plug-in, and there are other ways to do this, although for certain effects you want stereo, which is the case when they are designed specifically for stereo and have controls that let you manage the stereo imaging, including true stereo panning . . . ]

When everything was real, it was recorded monaurally and then mixed and produced . . .

There were--and continue to be--true stereo recordings, and these are done with two monaural microphones. This typically is done for symphonic, orchestral, and other types of what one might call "not K-pop" genres . . . :P

As I define it here in the sound isolation studio, "producing" is the activity focused on making real stuff sound surreal (or "big"), and it requires being able to work with raw monaural audio . . .

To the point, since having two essentially identical tracks of piano--one panned far-left and one panned far-right) results in position the two pianos monaurally at top-center (headphones) or center (stereo studio monitors), you need to do something to make them different when the goal is to position them on the sides at far-left and far-right . . .

In this second version, I used the Haas Effect to add a small but perceptible delay to the piano panned far-left, which makes it sufficiently different from the piano panned far-right . . .

I used Timeless 2 (FabFilter Software Instruments) to do the Haas Effect, and the piano at far-left is the "wet" signal only, which is the signal after small delays of 35 milliseconds and 75 milliseconds. The piano at far-right is not time-delayed. Both pianos are playing exactly the same notes . . .

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The way it works when producing is that it's easy to add reverberation and echoes, but it's nearly impossible to remove them when they are embedded in the raw audio . . .

My perspectives when I am wearing my "producer" hat are (a) that reverberation and echoes are vastly important and (b) that I do not want someone else controlling the reverberation and echoes . . .

This is the reason that for all practical purposes I hate stereo sampled sounds . . .

Fortunately, I discovered how to solve the problem; and this is where true stereo panning controls become vastly important, because with a true stereo panning control and independent volume sliders, I can remove one of the two channels, which then maps to working with a single monaural microphone . . .

If I want a bowed cello at 10:00 on the Rainbow Panning Arc, then I put it there (at "L.2" on the diagram) . . .

If I want a bowed cello at 14:00 on the Rainbow Panning Arc, then I put it there (at "R.2" on the diagram) . . .

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Both strategies work and generally achieve the same goal, which is to position the piano on the sides (far-left and far-right), which in turn makes sonic space available in the center for the vocalists . . .

There are a few rules that I consider generally to be absolute, and one of them is that when there is a singer (or singers), the instruments need to accompany the singers . . .

"The Beatles were a vocal group--except when nobody was singing, in which case they were George Harrison's lead guitar backup band."

Surf.Whammy

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SUMMARY

Everything is there, so from my perspective it's now a matter of producing, which for the most part is a completely separate activity from arranging, composing, recording, orchestrating, and mixing, although when you do everything yourself, it's all "producing" . . .

Lots of FUN! :)

P. S. These two examples were done with the new update to NOTION 6, which is very nice and faster, with more headroom . . .

It's also useful to observe that there is a tendency when one first starts experimenting with virtual singers to keep the singing in the background; and I found myself doing this . . .

But after a while, I realized that I was being "shy" or whatever; so now I am moving the virtual singing more to the front . . .

I did this with my real singing for a while; but once I shifted focus from being Pretend Elvis to being Pretend George Martin, one of the first things I did was tell the singer to move closer to the microphone . . .

I also told the singer to practice singing and that he wasn't a soprano anymore . . .

When I was in the liturgical boys choir, the choirmaster told me I was a soprano, and nobody told me anything different for over half a century; so I thought I was a soprano until I became Pretend George Martin and had an epiphany, which is fabulous . . .

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Fabulous! :P

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by Lawrence on Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:00 pm
Beautiful piece Michael..

It's always a nice change listening over here because you Notion composer guys don't smash your dynamics. Music really should do that, go from softer to loud and in-between, to help to convey mood and emotion. Popular music used to be more like that until everyone started smashing the hell out of everything with compressors and limiters. :)
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by Marcato on Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:34 pm
Michael,

I found the Chandos Della Jones recordings as mp3 on classicalarchives.com. Thanks for the hint.

M
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by michaelmyers1 on Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:00 am
Lawrence wroteBeautiful piece Michael..

It's always a nice change listening over here because you Notion composer guys don't smash your dynamics. Music really should do that, go from softer to loud and in-between, to help to convey mood and emotion. Popular music used to be more like that until everyone started smashing the hell out of everything with compressors and limiters. :)

Thanks for listening, Lawrence! I've reworked the piece and will be reposting another take soon. Even more subtle dynamics. :thumbup:

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by michaelmyers1 on Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:03 am
Surf.Whammy wroteI listend to this first played through the calibrated, full-range studio monitors here in the sound isolation studio and then with headphones . . .

[NOTE: I suspect it's a headphone mix, although perhaps not . . . ]


Thanks for listening and the input as always Surf. I always listen to my mixes through the air, with my own calibrated monitor setup.

I've reworked the track, in some sense to balance the awkward over-the-top nature of the piano. I also spread it some in the stereo image as well (in MIRPro). I think we were hearing the same thing. Also spread the strings a bit further as well, to give the vocalists more space. Re-posting soon.

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by michaelmyers1 on Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:30 pm
Surf.Whammy wroteThis is the reason that for all practical purposes I hate stereo sampled sounds . . .


Surf, thinking about this a bit more, I think this deserves a more nuanced approach, especially when it comes to piano. I actually love stereo samples, because they fit the way I work.

For most instruments, you're probably right, the source of the sound is a point source, emanating from one spot (for all practical purposes) in space. Piano is a bit different, I think. By it's nature, it's a large instrument physically, and the listener can (on intimate close mic'd performances) detect the lows on the right (if they're on the opposite side of the piano from the player) to the highs on the left. This is something that I wanted to capture in my recording. It would not be possible to do this with a mono recording of the piano.

For multiple-track mixing (George Martin's work with the Beatles is a great example, and he pretty much wrote the book on the subject) you're right, the placement of the sound is done after the recording, within the confines of a mixing board. My recordings are different. I do not multi-track, and I use the tools I have (mostly MIRPro) to place the players in a "real" stage environment. Here's a screen shot from this recording:

MIRPro.png


Classical recordings aren't multitrack, for the most part; they're captured live in a single go. They might be mic'd on separate instruments and then mixed and mastered later, but the intent is to capture a single performance, not to create a mix of separate tracks. This is one reason that I almost never use "stems" in a DAW. It's not very meaningful for my work. And it's also a reason that I rarely ever touch the pan control. I use MIRPro to move my players and mics in (virtual) space to get the sound that I'm after.

String sections are another example of the value of stereo recording for samples. Imagine trying to get realistic spatial imaging from a mono point source recording of an entire section of 16 violins or an entire orchestra. George Martin admirably mixed a string quartet into The Beatle's "Eleanor Rigby", but if you listen to it closely, the strings really sound very unnatural mixed as a mono recording into the stereo field available to him in the Abbey Road 4 track environment of the time. Because it was recorded in a single track as a mono recording, there is no spatial separation of the different instruments in the quartet. (The way that he bounces Paul's voice around in the mix is also very odd when listened to in headphones. It's as though the vocalists are jumping around on the stage...I've always found this quite jarring, and perhaps that was Mr Martin's intent, or he just had a few too many whatevers that day). Even George Martin's work evolved as the technology changed. He did not continue with 4-track recording when he had 8, 16, 24 and eventually 64 tracks available to him. If you listen to his work from the 80's with Ultravox, it had evolved (sound engineering-wise) well beyond the work he was doing with The Fab Four.

From where I stand, I don't choose to view the recording problem as that of "mixing and producing". I choose to view it from the standpoint of the great recording engineers of the 50's and 60's, such as the ones that created the masterful Mercury Living Presence series. https://www.stereophile.com/content/fine-art-mercury-living-presence-recordings

My approach is 1) Get the best (most realistic/beautiful/natural/engaging) performance from my virtual players, and 2) Make the best (most listenable/lifelike/compelling) recording of that performance, all with a result that is believable (the essence of good virtual orchestration, in my view).

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by michaelmyers1 on Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:14 pm
The recording at the original link above has been updated to Take 2. Levels, balance adjusted. Thanks to all on this post for their insight and thanks again for listening!

Here's a quote from the son of Bob and Wilma Fine, the engineers behind the Mercury Living Presence Series. It reflects what I'm trying to do with all my recordings:

"It was a realism," the Fines' rightfully proud son says today of his parents' sonic aims. "They wanted an honesty: the honest sound of the instruments, how they really sounded. They wanted a clarity to everything. They weren't as interested in sounding like you were in the tenth row as they were in hearing inside the music."

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by Marcato on Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:00 am
That's more like it, Michael! Each performer now live in their own bubble and keep their individuality. But they contribute to the collective effort.

This MIR software is an astounding tool. I own an earlier version along with Vienna Special Edition. One of these days, I'm going to upgrade for sure. Thanks for the demo.

Marcato
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by Surf.Whammy on Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:49 am
The second version is very nice! :+1

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by Surf.Whammy on Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:59 am
michaelmyers1 wroteSurf, thinking about this a bit more, I think this deserves a more nuanced approach, especially when it comes to piano. I actually love stereo samples, because they fit the way I work.

Regarding producing strategies and stereo sampled sound libraries, it's a bit like coding standards and practices . . .

I have my preferences, which are mostly absolute; but they apply primarily to what I am doing . . .

Standards and practices are good and necessary; but for the most part they are not independent, although there are a few truly absolute and independent standards and practices . . .

One example of an absolute and independent standard and practice is using calibrated, full-range studio monitors with a flat, equal loudness curve running from 20-Hz to 20,000-Hz at 85 dB SPL (measured with a dBA weighting) or 90 dB SPL (measured with a dBC weighting) . . .

Producing strategies vary by goals and genres; and from this perspective there are some absolutes, but they are specific rather than independent . . .

For example, when the goal is to create a virtual "classical" performance as it would be enjoyed in a concert hall or other venue, then one might suggest that stereo sampled sound libraries and stereo or dual-channel track controls are best; but I think there is another perspective . . .

If the premise is that a stereo sampled sound library is best for realism, then absent a very important caveat, I disagree strongly . . .

The key to understanding this is that what bothers me is the fact that someone else "pre-produced" the stereo sampled sound library by doing more than was necessary . . .

Instead of focusing on science, they wandered into beliefs . . .

By doing more than was necessary, they effectively are interfering with my ability to create beliefs in the virtual universe of audio . . .

[NOTE: Another way to explain this perspective is that if you want to hear how the Beatles actually sounded, then listen to a recording of one of their live performances. If you want to hear how George Martin believed the Beatles sounded, then listen to one of the Beatles songs he produced . . . ]

Creating a sampled sound library requires recording skilled musicians and singers; and it requires digitizing the individual notes in various playing or singing styles, which obviously requires audio engineering, computing, and producing . . .

When the stereo sampled sounds are made from two monaural microphones, with each monaural microphone on its own channel (Left of Right, respectively), then it's generally fine with me; since I can use only one of the channels when necessary . . .

Logically, I am fine with using multiple microphones--provided each microphone is available on a separate and independent channel . . .

Additionally, I only want the natural reverberation, echoes, and tonal characteristics of the recording studio or space; and personally I prefer it to be dry, which provides the most flexibility with respect to being able to enhance the sampled sounds with reverberation, echoes, and so forth . . .

Consider drumkits and percussion for a moment . . .

When I had the Really Bigger Drumkit in the sound isolation studio, at one point I was using 20+ separate microphones, which was a microphone for each drum; four overhead microphones; separate microphones for each individual or group of Latin percussion instruments; and a few more for the stacked cymbals . . .

[NOTE: The overhead microphones are easy to see, but the other microphones for the most part were smaller and mounted to the lower rims of drums, or on the floor, hence are not so visible in the photo . . . ]

Image
Really Bigger Drumkit

This worked to some extent, but it was difficult or nearly impossible to get good levels; so after getting some technical advice from "Magic Dave" at MOTU, I switched to using only two microphones, which considering that the sound isolation studio is approximately 6 feet wide by 7 feet tall and 12 feet long makes a bit of obvious sense when you think about it for a while . . .

[NOTE: This is loud, so be careful with the listening level. The advantage of having a virtual festival microphones on the drumkit is that it's easy to position each drum, cymbal, and Latin percussion instrument. The disadvantage here in the sound isolation studio was due to using a set of cascading, external mixers which were not correctly balanced for impedance, output signal strength, and all that stuff, which is the primary reason "Magic Dave" advised using two microphones and connecting them directly to the MOTU 828mkII (or later, the MOTU 828mk3, which is what i am using now). This was mixed for headphone listening, and all the drums, cymbals, and Latin percussion instruments were played in real-time on the fly in one take; so there was no overdubbing. The key to playing all that stuff in real-time is applying the principles of mechanical physics, which includes stacking cymbals and modifying the hi-hat rig so it does one set of actions when the foot pedal is depressed and another set of actions when the foot pedal is released, which is similar to the strategy for the kick drum pedals. As part of producing the instrumental song, I added reverberation and cascading echoes, which for the cascading echoes effectively doubles or triples what actually were single drum hits, thereby creating a "Wall of Percussion" and is the same strategy I used for the single lead guitar and single rhythm guitar, which is a "producing thing" . . . ]

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Consider grand piano for a moment . . .

This is the visual interface for Addictive Keys (XLN Audio) mixing board . . .

Image

As you can see in the lower-left corner, there are 10 microphones (8 are in pairs; 2 are single; but all are monaural, which makes sense if you think about it a while) . . .

When you click on a microphone (pair or single), this selects it; and then the mixing board controls to the right change to let you adjust various parameters for the microphone(s) . . .

The result is sent to NOTION or a DAW application as a single stereo signal; but in the VSTi virtual control itself, you have direct access to manage the separate and independent sound samples for the various microphones, which is what I prefer . . .

There are a few factory presets, which is fine with me . . .

From my perspective, it doesn't matter where the individual microphones are adjusted (NOTION mixer, DAW mixer, or VSTi virtual control mixer), so long as I can do the adjusting . . .

Explained another way, it's not so much a matter of not liking stereo sampled sound libraries, per se . . .

Instead, it's a matter of wanting to be able to have as much control as possible, albeit within the logical and practical aspects of using digitized, sampled sounds . . .

Since I prefer to control the reverberation, echoes, and related spatial, time, and motion effects, I prefer instruments and voices that were recorded "dry"; and some sampled sound libraries provide a set of "dry" samples, which is a somewhat subtle clue that I am not alone in having this perspective . . .

On the other hand, as I recall, Miroslav Philharmonik instruments and voices were recorded in an actual concert hall using standard soundstage positioning, which is fine with me . . .

IN SITU REALISM

Michael, I know that you are an architect, and while I am not an architect I think it's a fascinating art--especially with respect to acoustic physics--so I give it attention . . .

For what you are doing and your specific focus, I think your producing strategy makes excellent sense; and judging by the new version, it's working very nicely . . .

When I listen with studio quality headphones (SONY MDR-7506, a personal favorite), it sounds very realistic; and I like the locations of the instruments and singers on the virtual soundstage . . .

In this respect, it's similar to my perspective on audiophiles; and while I am not an audiophile, we share the same strict adherence to one aspect of realism, which is following the absolute rule that studio monitors and listening room loudspeakers need to be calibrated to achieve full-range, unbiased sound reproduction, although some audiophiles tend to prefer vacuum-tube preamplifiers and amplifiers, which introduce a bit of vacuum-tube "blur" but is fine with me and is what I use for my real lead guitar and rhythm guitar rigs . . .

At present, since I am totally fascinated by K-pop and T-ARA, this is about a near to something "classical" as I am interested in doing, but so what . . .

[NOTE: As is customary in K-pop, the audio is "pumped", and its loud, so be careful with the listening level. It's best enjoyed when listening with headphones, since there are a lot of spatial effects and motion effects, as well as plenty of "sparkles". Mostly, it's a matter of having something interesting to study when I am making sense of Realivox Blue (Realitone), phonetic scripting, custom phoneme sculpting in Melodyne (Celemony), and the ways pitch intervals and curves affect how words and phrases sound when sung legato. It's also an excellent way to discover the rules for audio engineering and producing a virtual festival of male tenors and female soprano singers. For reference, I usually listen to the iTunes versions, since while the YouTube visual material is spectacular, there's lots of rapidly blinking stuff, which can be a bit distracting when one is studying the audio . . . ]

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Lots of FUN! :)

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by michaelmyers1 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:13 pm
In my day job as a practicing architect (one day I might get it right) I have a good friend who's retiring this week. He is fond of saying that one simply chooses the fiction they want to believe. :)

I think this is necessary in any creative endeavor.

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by michaelmyers1 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:14 pm
Marcato wroteThat's more like it, Michael! Each performer now live in their own bubble and keep their individuality. But they contribute to the collective effort.

This MIR software is an astounding tool. I own an earlier version along with Vienna Special Edition. One of these days, I'm going to upgrade for sure. Thanks for the demo.

Marcato

Thanks, Marcato, I'm pretty happy with this version. A few tweaks of the soprano for realism in a few spots, I think. There are a few places where the legato isn't quite working and she's singing chords...

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by michaelmyers1 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:15 pm
Surf.Whammy wroteThe second version is very nice! :+1

Thanks, Surf!

iMac (Retina 5K 27", 2019) 3.6 ghz I9 8-core 64 gb RAM Fusion Drive
with small AOC monitor for additional display
macOS Ventura 13.4
2 - 500 gb + 2 - 1 tb external SSD for sample libraries
M Audio AirHub audio interface
Nektar Panorama P1 control surface
Nektar Impact 49-key MIDI keyboard
Focal CMS40 near-field monitors
JBL LSR310S subwoofer
Notion 6 + Studio One 5 Pro

http://www.tensivity.com

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