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I'm using Notion 6.2.439 under Mac OS 10.11.6

I have a score with a buggy measure: it has a dotted bar line on the left (that I did not put in), and even though the meter is 5/4, when I rewrite the music in it the measure will not accept more than one eighth note before moving to the next measure.

This would be fine if I could just delete it and fit in a new measure, but I can't: selecting the entire system for that bar and using right click-edit-delete merely moves the bug over to the next measure on the right.

Anyone experience this and/or have a solution? This is screwing up my entire score.

TIA
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by Surf.Whammy on Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:52 am
I do not recall encountering this problem, but odd things like this happen occasionally . . .

For example, I composed an electric guitar song a few years ago to determine how extreme one could be with all the various electric guitar articulations and playing techniques, which as you can observe in the YouTube music video is pretty extreme and more than a bit surreal . . .

[NOTE: This was done with NOTION 4, but as best as I can determine there are no red notes in the measures that would indicate a measure with too many notes, so the jumping back and forth phenomena are pretty strange, but so what. It keeps the beat accurately, so it's all good . . . ]

phpBB [video]


I play lead guitar proficiently, and I suppose that if I worked on it a lot, eventually I could play the music notation reasonably accurately, but it would require a major effort . . .

THOUGHTS

Making it all the more wacky, the time signature is 24/4; and two of the instruments are playing quarter-tone notes every once in a while . . .

The odd bits occur when the moving green beat line jumps back and forth for no reason I have been able to identify . . .

EXPERIMENTS

When I encounter an odd behavior in NOTION, I start doing experiments toward the goal of discovering a solution or at least a workaround . . .

(1) Make several copies of your score, so that you can do some experiments without losing your work . . .

(2) Using one of the copies, insert several new measures before and after the offending measure using the "bar line" tool from the Tools Palette and the mouse . . .

(3) Then try to delete the offending measure by selecting individual bar lines and pressing the delete key--not by using Edit menu commands or right-click context menu commands . . .

(4) Try selecting the offending measure by dragging the mouse pointer and then cut the notes, which should empty the measure. Then select and delete a few bar lines like in (3) . . .

Another thing to try is switching to Continuous view and Show Hidden Items . . .

Image

There are several ways to delete things in NOTION 6, and they don't work exactly the same way . . .

One way deletes the contents of a measure but not the measure . . .

Another way (see above), deletes the bar line but not the contents of the measure; and there is yet another way that deletes the measure and its content . . .

SUMMARY

I can't tell you specifically how to solve the problem, but as noted I start doing experiments when something like this occurs; and I always make several copies of the score, so I can do potentially destructive experiments on one or more of the copies . . .

NOTION 6 is a computer program, and the way it works on the Mac is that there are frameworks and objects . . .

Very little of the code is simple and direct, which is the way it was years ago when everything was done with low-level C/C++ . . .

Now the work is done by high-level objects that nearly always do a lot of things, in some instances regardless of whether you actually want the other things done . . .

Lots of stuff happens automagically, and yet another fact is that software engineers tend to have ideas and to explore them for a while; but then they get distracted by Hawaiian t-shirt Friday and pizza or a team meeting, andthey switch to focusing on something else, which is fine except they also forget to remove the code with which they were experimenting; and the result is that computer programs always do more than anyone actually remembers or understands, which is part of what makes some computer programs truly fascinating . . .

These extra capabilities are different from Easter eggs, but they can be just as entertaining and useful, where for reference an "Easter egg" is a bit of code that does something usually silly like displaying an image of a Smurf when you press a certain combination of keys or click the mouse in a particular location, or it might play a short clip of someone hitting Bill Gates in the face with a banana creme pie . . .

Sometimes simply switching the view from Pages Across to Continuous and then back to Pages Across will resolveproblems involved in what software engineers call "painting" or "rendering" the screen . . .

If there are three ways to delete measures and their contents, then try all three ways--but always with a copy of the original score, since you don't want to lose your work . .

When you discover a solution, save the score immediately; close NOTION 6; and then make a few more copies just in case . . .

Let us know when you solve the problem and how you solved it . . .

Lots of FUN! :)

The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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by robertfreeze on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:36 am
georgejgrellajr wroteI'm using Notion 6.2.439 under Mac OS 10.11.6

I have a score with a buggy measure: it has a dotted bar line on the left (that I did not put in), and even though the meter is 5/4, when I rewrite the music in it the measure will not accept more than one eighth note before moving to the next measure.

This would be fine if I could just delete it and fit in a new measure, but I can't: selecting the entire system for that bar and using right click-edit-delete merely moves the bug over to the next measure on the right.

Anyone experience this and/or have a solution? This is screwing up my entire score.

TIA


Try selecting the measure and selecting Regular Measure from the context menu. When I select a measure and set it to a Partial Measure, I see the dashed bar line at the end of the measure.

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by georgejgrellajr on Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:31 am
Thanks for the replies, but I've already tried each of the possible solutions mentioned, with no luck.
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by robertfreeze on Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:09 pm
Did you check the measure before (left of) the dashed bar line?

Studio One 3 x64, SONAR Platinum x64, Reaper 5 x64,
Notion 6 x64, Win10Prox64, i7-6700 @3.8Ghz/32G
FA06/FaderPort
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by georgejgrellajr on Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:15 pm
Yes, and the one after. I can delete the measure in question AND the ones immediately surrounding it, and the supposedly deleted measure is still buggy.
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by michaelmyers1 on Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:48 pm
Might be a corrupted file. I suggest submitting a help ticket to support. They're very helpful!

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by Surf.Whammy on Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:13 am
Can you post a small screen capture of the "dotted" barline?

THOUGHTS

I followed the instructions in the NOTION 6 User Guide for creating a "pickup" measure before the first measure; and it created a zero measure but without a dotted barline . . .

I was able to create a "partial" measure--spliltting a regular measure into two parts--and this creates a dashed barline, but not a dotted barline . . .

One possibility is that the NOTION 6 User Guide is using "dotted barline" and "dashed barline" to describe the same thing, which actually is a partial measure and will have a dashed barline to separate the measure into two parts . . .

I also tried to make a Barline Group for a Piano grand staff and an Electric Guitar regular and tab, but it doesn't extend the barline as shown in the NOTION 6 User Guide . . .

However, I was able to create a Barline Group for a Solo Violin, Solo Viola, and Solo Cello where the barline for these three instruments is continuous (extending as one barline for all three instruments); so it appears that some instruments can have a continuous barline while other instruments cannot have a continuous barline . . .

Switching the view from Continuous to Pages Across to Pages Down has no affect on the barlines, which are the same no matter which view is used . . .

The Piano and Electric Guitar do not have a continuous barline, but the Solo Violin, Solo Viola, and Solo Cell have a continuous barline . . .

I can split a measure and this adds a dashed barline . . .

So far, I have not been able to create a dotted barline . . .

With the "modern" way of programming now being focused on frameworks and objects, my thinking as a software engineer is that wandering into this set of functionality might add a bit of complexity, either (a) due to what one might call "coding quirks" or (b) due to operator misunderstanding; and it's difficult to speculate which one it might be, in part because it could be a combination of the two . . .

When stuff in a program happens automagically, as is the case often in the Mac universe--but also in Windows, except that it is called something else colloquially--it's difficult to determine exactly what happens behind the scenes, although usually it's a lot more than anyone, including the software engineers, imagined . . . :ugeek:

I like low-level C/C++, because nothing happens unless I tell it to happen . . .

Nothing happens automagically, and that's the way I like it!

It takes more code to do everything in low-level C/C++, but for me it's a control thing; and I like to control everything ruthlessly . . .

I do not like things to occur automagically, because I have no idea why or what it might be doing automagically . . .

But for the most part, those days a long gone; and now everything tends to happen automagically . . .

On the good side, Propellerhead Software's Rack Extension universe is nearly all low-level C/C++; and this is mostly what I do when I wander into software engineering . . .

How does this help?

I think it provides a few ideas for experiments . . .

(1) If you actually are seeing a dotted barline, then I think this is odd, because I have not been able to create a dotted barline . . .

(2) If you are seeing a dashed barline, then based on my experimenting, you should be able to select the measure with the dashed barline and then make it a Regular measure, which will make the dashed barline change to a solid barline . . .

(3) If you have done a lot of layout editing to create a virtual festival of Brace Groups, Bracket Groups, Barline Groups, and Tempo Groups, then I think you have wandered well into Automagic Land; and when that happens probably nobody knows all the rules . . .

ER = EPR

I have been watching some fascinating lectures on YouTube given by Leonard Susskind on Quantum Mechanics, Quantum Entanglement, Einstein-Rosen (ER) bridges (a.k.a., "wormholes"), Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen (EPR) Entanglement, Black Holes, and Quantum Gravity; and that's a lot of totally wacky stuff where nearly nothing is intuitive and everything is illogical but in a curiously logical way . . .

One of the most curious conjectures, hypotheses, or perhaps theories is that black holes are empty; and in this perspective everything occurs on the boundary or, in some geometries, on a two-dimensional hologram that extends across the surface and provides a representation of the three-dimensional or multidimensional interior of the black hole . . .

SUGGESTIONS

(1) Try using Clear instead of Delete . . .

Image

(2) Try selecting the measure with the dashed barline--a Partial measure--and making it a Regular measure . . .

Image

(3) Use the single barline tool on the Tools Palette to insert two measures before the offending measure and then use the same barline tool to insert two measures after the offending measure. Using the mouse, select one measure before; the offending measure; and one measure after. Next use the Delete menu item to delete these three measures. In this experiment, I would expect the offending measure to be gone, but you might need to make it a Regular measure first . . .

Image

(4) If there are a lot of instruments in the score, then another possibility is that are too many instruments or the score is too long. I mention this, because if you are using VSTI virtual instruments, then the rule I use is that 20 VSTi virtual instruments is the maximum for a NOTION 6 score, but in practice for heavy resource-intensive VSTi virtual instruments, I limit it to as few as one or two such instruments per score, in which case i might have 25 or more such scores--all synchronized and named to make it easy to keep track of them--for a song. I do this in a series of ReWire sessions with Digital Performer 9 (MOTU) as the Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) application and ReWire host controller, with NOTION 6 acting as a ReWIre slave. This works nicely for me, since I can only do a few things at a time no matter how it's done; and there is minimal overhead in the system for doing it this way. It's the way I am doing the "Sweet Hour of Prayer" project, which is coming along nicely and might be a new genre (Hillbilly Gospel Metal); and at present there are approximately 20 NOTION 6 scores (10 for the classic intro, and 10 for the Asynchronous Melodic Death Metal/Hillbilly Gospel Metal part). I use so many small NOTION 6 scores to ensure there enough headroom for the heavy resource-intensive VSTI virtual instruments . . .

[NOTE: This is a headphone mix, and I have not done a mix using the calibrated, full-range studio monitor system since I started adding all the "sparkled" synthesizers and my singing; so it sounds best when you listen with studio quality headphones like the SONY MDR-7506 at loud volume, but so what. I will do a calibrated, full-range studio monitor mix later. Headphone mixing does not work for me, but it's convenient when I am developing a song . . . ]

phpBB [video]


(5) You might do an experiment where you export the score as MusicXML and then import it to a new score. I did this with a simple score (Piano, Electric Guitar, Solo Violin, Solo Viola, and Solo Cello); and when I imported it to NOTION 6, it created a score which looks exactly like the one from which I exported the MusicXML, noting that before doing the Export MusicXML command, I used the Edit menu to do a Select All to ensure that the entire score was selected and then exported as MusicXML. If the dashed (or "dotted") barline is erroneous, exporting the score as MusicXML and then importing the MusicXML--which creates a new NOTION 6 score--might solve the problem, although perhaps not. Based on the simple score I used, this works; but I was not able to create a "dotted" barline, so it's not so easy to predict what might happen. Nevertheless, I had a Partial measure in the original, which had a dashed barline in the middle of a measure; and the dashed barline did not appear in the new score created by importing the MusicXML, which leads me to think that MusicXML does not support the NOTION 6 Partial measure layout functionality, which in this instance might be a way to remove the "dotted" or "dashed" barline that is causing the problem . . .

(6) if you are using only native NOTION 6 instruments, then you could send me a copy of the score as a NOTION 6 file via a Private Message (PM), which you can do using the forum PM functionality; and I can do some experiments with it. You can take this as a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) and all that stuff. It's an interesting puzzle, and I can devote a bit of attention to solving it; but otherwise you can do the same thing, since my perspective is that it's just a matter of discovering how to disentangle what certainly appears to be a pair of entangled measures--or an entangled dashed barline--which is the Quantum Mechanics perspective and is consistent with the automagical aspects of the way things work on the Mac . . .

Lots of FUN! :)

The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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by georgejgrellajr on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:18 am
I've attached a screenshot for anyone interested.

"Clear" has been tried, "Regular Measure" has been tried. Please understand that I didn't even log into this forum until every editing, measure- and bar-line related command had failed.

Attachments
Screenshot 2017-07-14 12.14.24.png
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by Surf.Whammy on Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:23 pm
georgejgrellajr wroteI've attached a screenshot for anyone interested.

"Clear" has been tried, "Regular Measure" has been tried. Please understand that I didn't even log into this forum until every editing, measure- and bar-line related command had failed.


Thanks for posting the screen capture! :)

It's a dashed barline, so NOTION 6 thinks the part to the left of the dashed line is a Partial Measure, although NOTION 6 might be a bit confused about it . . .

SUGGESTION

Try selecting the entire score and then exporting it as MusicXML . . .

Then import the MusicXML you just exported, which will create a new NOTION 6 score . . .

In my experimenting, this removed the dashed barline and changed it to a solid barline for a Regular Measure . . .

THOUGHTS

Most of the time, I don't use articulations, dynamics, playing styles, and all that stuff; so I'm not certain how exporting as MusicXML will work if you are using a lot of that stuff, but it might work . . .

However, I just did another experiment where I added some articulations and dynamics, as well as a second Partial Measure with six 1/8th notes to the left of the dashed barline and ten 1/8th notes to the right of the dashed barline--my experimental scores are in 5/4 time . . .

[NOTE: Curiously, I was able to do this without any of the notes on the left and right sides of the dashed barline turning red. Yet if I added a quarter note to the ten 1/8th notes on the right of the dashed barline, the last two 1/8th notes turned red. Based on this I think it's the notes to the left of the dashed line that have become a Partial Measure. The notes to the right of the dashed line are treated as a different measure entirely. This makes a bit of sense, but I would not describe it as "splitting" the measure, since "split" suggests dividing and based on the behavior it is "separating" rather than "splitting" ]

Then I selected everything and did the MusicXML export, followed by importing the MusicXML . . .

This created a new NOTION 6 score with solid barlines where there were dashed barlines; and all the articulations and dynamics were present . . .

This might solve the problem . . .

PARTIAL MEASURES

After doing a few more experiments, the concept and implementation of a Partial Measure makes more sense; and in practice it's a way to have a measure with fewer than the regular number of beats without needing to do a time signature change . . .

For example, if you want a measure in a 5/4 signature that only has three beats, then you select the measure and make it a Partial Measure. Now you can add three quarter notes and as the vertical green beat indicator moves from note to note, it doesn't do nothing for the two beats which normally would complete a 5/4 measure . . .

It treats the Partial Measure as if it were a full measure for a shorter time signature, which might be useful at times . . .

When it's done at the start of a song, it's called an "anacrusis", which for me is a new bit of terminology; but when it's done later in a song, it's called something else, or so it appears . . .

With this newfound knowledge, I think the behavior you have encountered is a software bug; because you should be able to put five beats of notes to the right of the dashed barline; except that in the screen capture you have five beats of notes to the right of the dashed barline and five beats of notes to the left of the barline, so the only odd bit there is the dashed line . . .

Since the notes are correct, one might suggest that the workaround is to leave the dashed barline, since other than not looking correct visually, it's not doing anything bad . . .

The truly odd behavior occurs when you try to delete the offending measure or at least to change it to a Regular Measure . . .

georgejgrellajr wroteThis would be fine if I could just delete it and fit in a new measure, but I can't: selecting the entire system for that bar and using right click-edit-delete merely moves the bug over to the next measure on the right.


[NOTE: I don't think you need to select "the entire system". Just select the measure for one instrument. When I first started doing experiments, I selecting the entire vertical measure for all the instruments, but then I noticed that it applies to all the instruments for that measure regardless; so I switched to selecting only the measure and its respective notes for one instrument, which worked just as well and is a lot easier to do. And for reference, I never use right click-edit-delete. I either select the measure(s) and press the "delete" key on the Apple keyboard or I use the 'Delete" menu item on the Edit menu. These do two entirely different tpes of deletes, where the former just deletes the notes, while the latter deletes the notes and measures. If you only do this for some but not all instruments, then they do the same thing; but if you select the measure(s) for all the instruments, then the Edit menu and Delete menu item deletes the notes and the measure(s), which is different from what the "delete" key does, in which case the "delete" key does a "Clear" while the Edit menu and Delete menu item remove the notes and the measure(s). The context menu technique looks to be the same, but then in the automagical universe, I am not so convinced that it is the same. It probably is, but then why is the "delete" key not the same, too . . . ]

Are you inputting notes via a MIDI keyboard or the visual keyboard that NOTION 6 provides?

I have not tried that, yet; since I nearly always input notes with the mouse by selecting the duration of note from the Tools Palette and then clicking where I want the note to be placed . . .

It's also odd that the dashed barline just moves to the right or whatever . . .

SUMMARY

At present, I think doing the MusicXML export and import looks good, and it might work . . .

Another possible solution is to create a new score with the correct instruments but no notes . . .

Then copy all the notes for all the instruments starting from the beginning of the score and continuing to perhaps two measures before the dashed line . . .

Paste those notes into the new score starting at the first measure . . .

Then add a few empty measures after the measures you just pasted . . .

Next switch back to the original score and select the notes for all the instruments but this time start the selection a few measures after the dashed barline; and then paste them into the new score at a few measures after the first set of notes . . .

The expected result is that you have the good notes starting from the first and continuing until a few empty measures, after which the notes from the second half of the song are there . . .

They just input the notes for the two or so empty measures . . .

It's a bit of a hassle, but it does not take a long time, unless your score has 100 or more instruments . . .

First I would try the export MusicXML and then import MusicXML strategy, and if that worked, then great . . .

Otherwise, I would try the copy and paste in two parts strategy . . .

One of those should work, unless you are doing elaborate layout stuff, in which case the cause of the software bug might be something indirectly related to the dashed line and a Partial Measure, in which case it's a gnarly software bug . . .

If it helps, send me a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) . . .

I have NDAs with Apple, Propellerhead Software, and a few other companies, and it's fine with me . . .

I like puzzles, and I can look at the score if you are comfortable doing it this way . . .

No guarantees, but I might be able to determine what's happening and to find a way to correct it . . .

IDEA

If your score is using native NOTION 6 instruments, then make a copy of it; and delete all the measures except perhaps two measures before the dashed barline and two measures after the barline . . .

Then change all the notes to Middle C . . .

Call this the "experimental score", and send me a copy of it or attach it to a post so everyone can try to solve the puzzle . . .

So long as the odd behavior is there, I can do some experiments to determine if there is an easy solution . . .

This way there's no need for an NDA, and it's pretty much the same as posting the screen capture, except that it's a NOTION 6 score spanning perhaps five measures of Middle C notes in 5/4 time . . .

Lots of FUN! :)

P. S. Please understand that my perspective is based on decades of GUI software engineering, and I notice things that most folks probably do not notice unless they have done GUI software engineering . . .

I take nothing for fact until I examine it and do some experiments, which in some instances includes using a screen magnifier utility to examine individual pixels . . .

Your original post referred to a "dotted" barline, and the NOTION 6 User Guide mentions "dotted" barlines, but it also mentions "dashed" barlines . . .

I was not able to create a "dotted" barline following the instructions in the NOTION 6 User Guide; but I was able to create a "dashed" barline, hence the request for the small screen capture . . .

No offense intended . . .

Basically, I look for patterns; and a "dotted" barline is different from a "dashed" barline . . .

Things like this often provide useful clues to odd behaviors in computer programs, but it just as easily can be a matter of imprecise technical writing in the NOTION 6 User Guide . . .

It's all good . . . :+1

The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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by Surf.Whammy on Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:25 pm
This is a summary with detailed steps for two strategies that are likely to solve the problem . . .

Begin by making copies of the original score, so you can do these experiments using copies . . .

STRATEGY #1: EXPORT/IMPORT MUSICXML

(1) Start with a copy of the original score . . .

(2) Select the entire score and export it as MusicXML . . .

(3) Import the MusicXML you just exported, which will create a new NOTION 6 score . . .

Expected Result: The new score created by importing the MusicXML will not have a dashed barline. The dashed barline will be a regular barline . . .

STRATEGY #2: CREATE A NEW SCORE BY SELECTIVE COPY/PASTE WITH MANUAL INPUT

(1) Start with a copy of the original score . . .

(2) Delete all the measures, which then makes it a blank score but with the instruments defined . . .

(3) Save the blank score . . .

(4) Exit and then restart NOTION 6 . . .

(5) Open another of the copied scores and select the measures and notes for all the instruments starting from the first measure and continuing until two measures before the measure with the dashed barline . . .

[NOTE: As an experiment, you can create two blank measures before and after the measures with the dashed barline. This might isolate the two measures sufficiently to limit the number of measures for which you need to do manual note input. Specifically, the two measures are the one that ends with dashed barline and the adjacent measure that begins with the dashed barline, which after inserting the two empty measures before and after will look like the following image based on the screen capture you provided. If this isolates the two measures spanning the dashed barline, then you only need to input the notes for two measures manually. Later, you can delete the two empty measures on each side . . . ]

Image

(6) Open the blank score you created in steps (2) and (3) . . .

(7) Paste the measures and notes in the Clipboard into the blank score starting at the first measure . . .

(8) Insert two empty measures at the end of the score into which you just copied the measures and notes for the first half of the song . . .

(9) Switch to the copy of the original score and select the measures and notes beginning two measures after the dashed line and continuing until the end of the song . . .

(10) Switch to the other score where you are doing the pasting, and paste the measures and notes in the Clipboard starting at the last measure, after which the newly populated score will have all the measures and notes except for the dashed barline measure and two measures before and after . . .

(11) Save the newly pasted score . . .

(12) Exit and restart NOTION 6 . . .

(13) Open the new score from step (11) and then manually input the notes for the measures you did not copy and paste. You do not want to copy and paste these few measures and notes, because copying is likely to include the dashed barline information . . .

(14) Repeat steps (11) and (12) . . .

(15) Save the score . . .

(16) Exit and then restart NOTION 6 . . .

Expected Result: This will produce a new score with the desired measures and notes. The dashed barline will be gone . . .

[NOTE: As another experiment, you can create a new score in a similar way, but just copy the two measures that span the dashed barline, except don't start with the first measure of the empty but instrument-defined score. Instead start on the second measure when you do the paste. If this lets you change the Partial Measure to a Regular Measure, then you can use this score as the source for the notes for the two measures, thereby avoiding the need to input the notes manually. Yet another variation is to do this and then do the Export/Import MusicXML strategy, with the goal being to remove the dashed barline for the two measures without needing to do the Export/Import MusicXML strategy for the entire score . . . ]

THOUGHTS

The first strategy (Export/Import MusicXML) is the easiest, and it should solve the problem . . .

The second strategy (Selective Copy/Paste with Manual Input) also should solve the problem, but it's a bit more work if there are lot of instruments in the score, because it requires manually inputting the notes for the offending measures (at least two of the measures, the measure ending with the dashed barline and the measure beginning with the dashed barline) . . .

Let us know whether one of these strategies provides a solution . . .

Lots of FUN! :)

The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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by davidgriffee on Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:00 am
I can verify (briefly ;) ) that SurfWhammy is indeed correct that export/import MusicXML fixes problems like this. I have run into such mysterious hidden corruptions which occur occasionally if you happen to hit upon some combination of things that slipped past the Q/A testing (hey they are only human, nobody could possibly test every conceivable combination/permutation of all this stuff :geek: ) I got the suggestion from one of the original Notion programmers and it works very well.

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