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As follow-up to a post back in mid-2014. Panning Strings- and the question of inverted mixer pan handles.
https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?p=9010#p9010

Here is a draft response I saved about this until today.


After doing (2) two tests back then and today
#1 w/Notion sounds and
#2 w/EWQLSO sounds
I'd say that the Notion mixer "panning handles" when reversed do in fact reverse or change the stereo image of the sound being heard.

In test examples I loaded (2) two instances of the same instrument.

Playing the same note data, listening closely with headphones and by viewing the peak meters it was hard to tell with the Notion 5 sounds which I believe are subtly spaced stereo samples.

But !! , it was obvious when testing the EWQLSO Platinum instrument samples without any reverb.
The EWQLSO instrument library of sounds were sampled as they sound on the same stage and positioned within the full orchestra seating arrangement.


Again it is obvious that the stereo field or image is affected when the Notion 5 mixer "pan handles" are reversed.
I believe the Notion 5 samples are similar but with very, very little stereo separation or presence this test shows little to compare.
More clarification is needed. And more Notion support documentation would be nice.

,Newberry

:arrow:
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by johnnewberry on Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:39 pm
The reversed stereo image is really apparent when testing this using a drum vst and its preset of a kit spread left to right and then reversing Notion 5 mixer panning handles.

,Newberry

:arrow:
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by Surf.Whammy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:33 am
[NOTE: Toward the worthy goal of avoiding confusion, I am using the pronoun "you" in a general sense, so if someone already knows this stuff, then skip through it. For reference, I kind of knew some of this stuff approximately 10 years ago but not all of it, and some of it is information I discovered over the past year or so, mostly as a matter of determining why stuff was not working in the digital audio universe the way I expected it to work, which among other things included delving into ducking, which is one of the keys to producing Pop songs and related genres . . . ]

It is easier to understand panning when you focus at first on a monaural audio track rather than on a stereo audio track, since among other reasons there are few, if any, true stereo panning controls . . .

For a monaural audio track, the panning control determines where the sound appears in what I call the "rainbow panning arc", and it is absolute . . .

[NOTE: The blue and red dots show the locations in a headphone listening scenario, while the x-axis indicates the location based on a studio monitor listening scenario. Both scenarios are arbitrary, since it is not so easy to position sounds relative to left, right, front, back, up, and down. This is based on the way I hear sounds when I listen with headphones and studio monitors, so it is relative, which is fine with me. As an example, when I listen with headphones to "Amnesia" (Mind.In.A.Box), everything is inside my head, except far-left and far-right, which are in their respective headphone. There is no front and back, but there is up (typically top-center), and there is a bit of down (usually a deep bass undercurrent). For reference, I use SONY MDR-7506 headphones (a personal favorite, for sure) . . . ]

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phpBB [video]


The key bits of information relative to a monaural audio track are (a) that there is a single volume control and (b) that there is a single panning control, which in the grand scheme of everything maps to being able to control panning and volume independently . . .

There is a set of panning rules, but for the most part there are three of them based on making 0 dB, 3 dB, or 6 dB adjustments depending on the specific location or placement of the sounds on the "rainbow panning arc", where for example, Studio One 2.6+ supports five pan laws for its "Dual Pan" plug-in . . .

Pan Law. Select a pan law, choose from -6 dB Linear, -3 dB Constant Power Sin/Cos, -3
dB Constant Power Sqrt, 0 dB Balance Sin/Cos, and 0 dB Linear.

[SOURCE: Studio One Reference Manual, page 211 ]


Pan Law ~ Wikipedia

The various pan laws refer to stereo studio monitor and headphone listening systems, where the general idea is that sounds need to be louder to be perceived at equal loudness the greater the distance from center or top-center, which is the case because at center or top-center a sound is reproduced by both studio monitors or headphones, while for example at far-right a sound is reproduced only by the right studio monitor or headphone . . .

In other words, the specific pan law being used determines how the volume level needs to be adjusted based on the specific location within the "rainbow panning arc" so that regardless of location the sound will be perceived as being at the same loudness . . .

[NOTE: Unless specified to the contrary, the pan law generally is implemented automagically by the mixing console (real or virtual) for monaural tracks, but regardless it is important to verify placement by listening, which is where having a calibrated full-range studio monitor system becomes important. Stereo tracks in Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) applications nearly always have balance controls rather than panning controls, and there is no "balance law" other than the standard rules for volume and loudness. Since NOTION 5 has a new mixer, which likely is based in part on existing PreSonus virtual mixing board technology, one might predict that the 3 dB panning law is used, but verifying this is not so easy to do. Nevertheless, a quick experiment tends to suggest that NOTION 5 uses a 6 dB panning rule. This simple experiment also verifies that the NOTION 5 stereo panning control modifies the respective volume levels of the two channels, which is an intriguing aspect of the algorithm. In particular, observe that when the right channel of the stereo Piano is at top-center its volume level is approximately 6 dB lower than the volume level of the left channel, which is parked at far-left. This might map to the NOTION 5 panning control being a true stereo panning control, but a few more experiments are needed to make this determination. The second experiment (shown to the right of the first experiment) indicates that when the panning location of the right channel is moved to far-left, the volume level of the right channel drops to nothing on the right side, which is what should happen with a true stereo panning control. For reference, the relative levels of the left and right channels in the first experiment are valid for comparison, but it is not possible to compare the maximum volume in the two experiments, because the actual values depend on when the screen snapshot was taken. Nevertheless, there probably is another experiment that will capture comparable values. Intuitively, if the right channel information is moved entirely to the left side, then the left side should be louder than when it only has the left channel information . . . ]

Image Image

Volume (a.k.a., "amplitude") is logarithmic--hence the "decibel" unit--and some aspects of panning are logarithmic, since volume is involved . . .

Decibel ~ Wikipedia

When one maps panning locations to hours and minutes on a wall clock, the easy locations are 9:00, 12:00, and 3:00 (far-left, center|top-center, far-right), while the most difficult locations are those that are closer to center|top-center, with 11:00 and 1:00 being considerably more difficult than 10:00 and 2:00, which I like to call the "Dr. Pepper" locations . . .

Image

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Curiously, panning was created for use in the Walt Disney animated motion picture "Fantasia" and was a key component of "Fantasound", which was the first version of what at the dawn of the early-21st century is known colloquially as "surround sound" . . .

[NOTE: The "panoramic potentiometer" (a.k.a., "pan pot") was created as part of the Fantasound technology for putting sounds into motion in the late-1930s, which is vastly cool when you think about it . . . ]

Fantasound ~ Wikipedia

The NOTION 5 panning controls are almost true panning controls and certainly are not the more simplistic "balance" style controls that usually are provided for stereo mixer tracks, but the problem is that the volume controls are not independent . . .

The NOTION 5 panning control separates the left channel from the right channel with respect to independent control, which maps to true panning control, but there is no corresponding separation for the volume slider, which works equally on both channels of the stereo track, hence in toto is not true stereo panning . . .

Studio One 2.6+ has a panning control plug-in that works similarly to the way the NOTION 5 panning control works, but it does not provide separate volume level control for each channel (left, right) . . .

Image

Digital Performer 8+ (MOTU) has a similar panning control plug-in, but it provides separate volume level control for each channel, hence is a true stereo panning control. The volume meter control range lower and upper values can be adjusted, as well, where in the image the meter lower range is set approximately to -40 dB while the upper range is set to 0 dB . . .

The MOTU Trim plug-in also has an Invert Phase control, which inverts the phase of the respective channel when activated by clicking on the respective dot . . .

[NOTE: The panning controls for each channel can be linked or they can be controlled separately, which also is the case with the volume level controls. The volume meter range controls are for both channels. The green dots indicate that the pan and gain controls are linked, respectively. For the Pan and Gain controls, clicking on the respective green dot unlinks its respective left and right controls so that they operate independently . . . ]

Image

If you want to control everything ruthlessly, then the best strategy is to split stereo audio tracks into pairs of monaural audio tracks, since this ensures you have complete control over both panning and volume level. Another way is to use a true stereo panning control like the MOTU Trim plug-in . . .

THOUGHTS

When pondering all this stuff, I think it is important to understand that "stereo" is an arbitrarily devised construct which does not exist in nature. More specifically, originally it was an attempt to create what one might call "natural realism" combined with a bit of dramatic motion . . .

People do not have stereo hearing--instead people with normal hearing have binaural hearing, which is very different from stereo . . .

Most of the time, I think that musicians, singers, audio engineers, and producers listen to recorded material played through stereo studio monitors, where one bank of studio monitors is on the left and the other bank is on the right. What they actually hear are the sounds created by the studio monitors, and they hear this in a binaural way where there is audio materiel from both sides coming into each ear, based on the acoustic behaviors of the studio or listening room . . .

Listening with headphones is different, since each ear hears only the audio for the specific channel or side (left, right), which in some respects bypasses or negates normal binaural human hearing, and among other things is one of the reasons that mixing when listening with headphones generally does not work so well . . .

[NOTE: It is best to mix when listening to calibrated full-range studio monitors. Once a good mix is achieved, it then becomes possible to switch to headphones to do a bit of fine-tuning specifically for headphone listeners, although for the most part studio monitor mixes nearly always sound better than headphone-only mixes . . . ]

It also is important to hear the full range of audio, which is the reason that having a calibrated full-range studio monitor system is so important, as is having deep bass subwoofers, since with modern studio monitors, there need to be deep bass subwoofers to reproduce the bass, since otherwise it is simply not there, in which case what you hear is an audio delusion . . .

For example, when the frequency range of a studio monitor system is 60-Hz to 20,000-Hz, this pretty much precludes hearing the low-pitch "A" string of a contrabass and a lot of other bass stuff, which is a huge problem that is easily solved by augmenting the studio monitor system with a pair of deep bass subwoofers, noting that it needs to be a pair, not a single monaural deep bass subwoofer that reproduces an arbitrarily constructed monaural bass signal . . .

STEREO SAMPLES

Sometimes, there is a bit of detailed information provided regarding the specific ways stereo samples are recorded and digitized, but regardless when it is reasonable to presume that the stereo samples are not constructed arbitrarily using computer algorithms, I think makes sense to presume that at least two microphones were used, which for reference can be a single "stereo" microphone, since there are "stereo" microphones that combine two monaural microphones into a single unit or whatever. No matter what a "stereo microphone" is called, it is two monaural microphones from the perspective of acoustic physics . . .

In other instances, there might be several microphones, where for example, advanced drumkit sampled sound libraries usually have a set of microphones, where there might be several microphones for each drum and cymbal, as well as overhead and room microphones, but it depends on the specific drumkit sampled sound library, as well as the provided interface . . .

Addictive Drums (XLN Audio) has elaborate microphone configurations, as well as the ability to control the various microphones . . .

Addictive Drums 2 (XLN Audio)

Lots of FUN! :)

P. S. Another way to understand what the NOTION 5 panning control does is that when you reverse the left and right positions, the result is the same as physically moving the left studio monitor to the right side and moving the right studio monitor to the left side . . .

What was directed to the left side is directed to the right side, and vice-versa . . .

The phase remains the same . . .


To reverse the phase, you just need to swap the red and black wires for the respective studio monitor, if it is non-powered studio monitor, in which case it will just be loudspeakers (a single loudspeaker; a woofer and a tweeter; or something more elaborate, perhaps a three-way or four-way system with woofer, midrange, high-frequency, and perhaps ultrahigh-frequency) . . .

[NOTE: If the studio monitors are powered and have TRS or TRRS line-level inputs, reversing phase is a bit more complex, but if it is not too difficult to get to the actual wires that go to the loudspeakers, you can do it easily, or at least somewhat easily . . . ]

This is another way to conceptualize the difference in (a) changing panning location and (b) reversing phase, which is fabulous . . .

Fabulous! :ugeek:
Last edited by Surf.Whammy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by michaelmyers1 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:30 pm
Surf.Whammy wrote
P. S. Another way to understand what the NOTION 5 panning control does is that when you reverse the left and right positions, the result is the same as physically moving the left studio monitor to the right side and moving the right studio monitor to the left side . . .

What was directed to the left side is directed to the right side, and vice-versa . . .

The phase remains the same . . .


Surf, very informative post as usual.

I have been suffering from a misunderstanding that reversing phase was the same thing as reversing the left and right signals.

So to clarify for the original poster, reversing the left and right pan dots in the Notion mixer (thereby turning it red) does, in fact, reverse, or mirror, the left/right signals?

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by johnnewberry on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:19 pm
An article by Daniel Keller.
_Understanding Audio Phase and Correcting Issues_ :

http://www.uaudio.com/blog/understanding-audio-phase/

,Newberry

:arrow:
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by johnnewberry on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:38 pm
This is not directly applicable in Notion's workflow; however, the concept is good to know and that there are vst effects that simulate the mid-side signal processing technique.

_Mid-Side (MS) Mic Recording Basics_
by Daniel Keller
http://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/

,Newberry

:arrow:
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by Surf.Whammy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:48 pm
michaelmyers1 wroteSo to clarify for the original poster, reversing the left and right pan dots in the Notion mixer (thereby turning it red) does, in fact, reverse, or mirror, the left/right signals?


Yes! :)

Panning and phase shifting are two separate things, and it is easiest to understand when using the example where there are a pair of non-amplified studio monitors--one for the left and one for the right--where the reason for using non-amplified studio monitors is that it makes it easy to do the second experiment. The first experiment can be done with amplified or non-amplified studio monitors . . .

[NOTE: The purpose of using non-amplified studio monitors in the two examples is that the wires connecting them will be speaker wires rather than TRS or TRRS line-level signal cables . . . ]

(1) Reversing the "L" and "R" dots on the NOTION 5 panning control is the same as moving the left studio monitor to the right side and moving the right studio monitor to the left side . . .

[NOTE: If you have a pair of headphones, the simple version of this experiment is to switch the headphones so that the headphone labeled "R" is for your left ear and the headphone labeled "L" is for your right ear. When the NOTION 5 panning control dots are normal, this is like wearing the headphone correctly, but when the dots are reversed, it is like swapping ears by reversing the headphones . . . ]

(2) Reversing phase in a stereo system is different, and it is done by reversing the typically red and black speaker wires that run from a power amplifier to the loudspeaker(s) of a non-powered studio monitor--but only for one side . . .

Image

Loudspeakers have two terminals--one for positive and one for negative--and the color coding convention is that positive is red, while negative is black . . .

Most of the time, folks do not see the actual loudspeakers, but instead see the cabinets, so it is more common to see red and black speaker connector posts, but these connect to the same terminals on loudspeakers, tweeters, and so forth . . .

For a stereo studio monitor system that has non-amplified loudspeaker units, speaker wires run from the power amplifier to the loudspeaker units, and if the red and black wires for one side are reversed, the left and right loudspeaker units will be out of phase. To correct this, you just need to ensure that the red connectors and black connectors are connected to their respective colors . . .

[NOTE: This part is a bit difficult to understand, since while there is a difference in the overall sound and stereo image, the left side does not entirely cancel the right side most of the time, which is because in a stereo recording there are differences in the audio material for each channel, so what happens is that it sounds a bit dull, since some--but not all--of the audio information is canceled due to being out of phase. So for example, if you play a stereo Beatles song on a system where one of the stereo loudspeakers is out of phase, you will hear most of the song, but there will be some missing bits and it will sound dull or whatever. However, if the left and right channels have exactly the same audio and the phase of one side is reversed, then the two sides will cancel, and there will be no sound. Another way to understand this is to observe that the cone of a loudspeaker moves forward and backward, and it is pushing air in each direction--toward the front when it is moving forward and toward the back when it is moving backward. If you have a second loudspeaker which is doing exactly the opposite of what the other loudspeaker is doing, then when the first loudspeaker pushes air forward, the second loudspeaker pushes air backward, and the result is that the is no motion, so no air is moved and no sound is heard. Explained yet another way, this is the principle used for Bose external noise-canceling headphones, which have microphones that detect external noise and circuits which cancel the external noise by creating reverse phase waves of the external noise . . . ]

Consider a sine wave and a cosine wave from trigonometry . . .

Given the same amplitude and frequency or arrival rate, they have the same shape, but the phase of the cosine wave is shifted by 90 degrees . . .

Image

Reversing phase maps to shifting phase by 180 degrees, and when this happens the sum of the original wave and the reversed wave is nothing, hence there is no sound, because the wave with reversed phase completely cancels the original wave, hence the simple experiment to prove that reversing the "L" and "R" dots does not reverse phase . . .

Making sense of phase requires a bit more work--and it can be a bit confusing in some respects--but the key bit of relevant information in the context of the NOTION 5 panning control is "stereo" . . .

Lots of FUN! :)
Last edited by Surf.Whammy on Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Surf.Whammy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:52 pm
johnnewberry wroteAn article by Daniel Keller.
_Understanding Audio Phase and Correcting Issues_ :

http://www.uaudio.com/blog/understanding-audio-phase/

,Newberry

:arrow:

:+1

This explains it very well, and I like the diagrams . . .

Lots of FUN! :)
Last edited by Surf.Whammy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!
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by Surf.Whammy on Tue Apr 28, 2015 7:59 pm
johnnewberry wroteThis is not directly applicable in Notion's workflow; however, the concept is good to know and that there are vst effects that simulate the mid-side signal processing technique.

_Mid-Side (MS) Mic Recording Basics_
by Daniel Keller
http://www.uaudio.com/blog/mid-side-mic-recording/

,Newberry

:arrow:

:+1

I think the NOTION sounds are recorded this way or in a similar way, perhaps with the two microphones but not so closely space or with more than two microphones but then mixed to a single stereo signal, but this is mostly a bit of guessing . . .

Lots of FUN! :)

Surf.Whammy's YouTube Channel

The Surf Whammys

Sinkhorn's Dilemma: Every paradox has at least one non-trivial solution!

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