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I have 4 mixed mono tracks that I want to 'export mixdown' to an MP3. I keep getting an error: "Clipping has occurred. The signal was .70dB over." I can't find the clipping.
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by Vocalpoint on Tue May 30, 2023 1:21 pm
You most likely won't "see" or find clipping that is just 0.7 over.

If it was me - I would lower the overall mix (via a VCA) by about a DB while keeping the master fader right at unity (0.00dbFS) and all should be well.

VP

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by donaldbaarns on Tue May 30, 2023 1:38 pm
Lots of options, that normal for encoding.

The mixing is cumulative, and MP3 is Encoding, so the clipping often won't be obvious just looking at the tracks.

MP3 is not just combining/saving the existing track, it's ENCOING to MP3. (Remove some minor data, to have smaller files.) When you remove some audio, peaks can go higher (or lower) than they were when combining WAV files.

You can lower the overall Master, or lower the tracks a touch, or put a limiter on the Master (.7 dB is so small, having the limiter at -1 or -.5 and it won't be heard in the final...).

Encoding to MP3 absolutely can change the peaks, up or down, and no way to predict in advance where that will happen. Limiters and compressors are your friends for that type of stuff.

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by Lokeyfly on Tue May 30, 2023 1:40 pm
@ stephenrachlin,

I've found it on several occasions as low as 0 2 dB over, and getting the error message. Like VP says, lower where necessary. Wherever you feel lowering/filtering/sidechaining is needed.

There's times you won't see where there is combined clipping, so there's a number of ways to reduce that combined level (where it's occuring). You might want to think about subtly filtering any low frequencies (perhaps below 40 - 80 hz. or below. Or using the Pro EQ by using its dynamics processing at the necessary threashold. That way, you'll get to keep what you really like about the mix. Even if the track doesn't have any audible lows, don't be afraid to use a high pass filter to avoid any inaudible rumble, sub frequencies, etc.

Also if it applies, some 3rd party synths have some very fine transients, and you'll have to notch them out.

You can try mixing to a wav or non compressed file first and see if that rules out encoding. Though, that was certainly worth bringing up. I usually find if the mix is going to clip, it's going to clip.

Good luck.

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by stephenrachlin on Tue May 30, 2023 3:44 pm
Thanks, everybody. Think of me as a first grader (or less). I'm afraid I don't even understand some the terms.

I am recording 4 channels of audio tape from a TEAC 3340. I created 4 Tracks in Studio One and kept the output and the recording out of the red.

Then, I mixed the 4 Tracks on the Mix Console to create the proper balance without going in the red. So far, so good.

Then, I tried to 'Export Mixdown' to MP3 and got the clipping message.

What should I reduce - the 'Main Out', the individual Tracks?
Also, in the Mixdown' dialogue box, I don't really understand the 'Loudness' setting. So, I left the default: EBU R128.

donaldbaarns: "You can lower the overall Master, or lower the tracks a touch, or put a limiter on the Master (.7 dB is so small, having the limiter at -1 or -.5 and it won't be heard in the final...)." "Lower the overall Master" - Is that lowering the fader on the Main Out? "Lower the tracks" - Is that lowering the fader on the individual tracks in the Mix? "Limiter" - HELP!

Vocalpoint: 'If it was me - I would lower the overall mix (via a VCA) by about a DB while keeping the master fader right at unity (0.00dbFS) and all should be well." Do you mean that the Main Out (Line Out 1+2) should be at 0 and I should lower all the individual Tracks until I don't get the error during Mixdown?

Lokekyfly: The ProEQ idea sounds out of my league at this point. Although, it's intriguing because the bass on the recording is kind of boomy.
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by Lokeyfly on Tue May 30, 2023 4:19 pm
Nice, I had a Teac 3340S, and a Revix A77!

I'll let VP answer since he responded first. You won't have to wait long. But yes, largely turning your channels or bus' down and leaving the main out at unity is always wise. That's usually a golden rule.

Also, add your specs so we know how you're interface looks coming in.

Typically a 3340 is minus 10 dBu impedance, and audio interfaces are balanced +4, so you may want to impedance match. For example even a small mixer will have balanced outs and it is that you'll want to add more info about.

List your related specs so we can best provide an answer. 👍

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by Vocalpoint on Tue May 30, 2023 4:25 pm
stephenrachlin wroteDo you mean that the Main Out (Line Out 1+2) should be at 0 and I should lower all the individual Tracks until I don't get the error during Mixdown?


Yes - you can select all tracks in the mixer console and right click - and choose Add VCA for Selected tracks.

That will give you a handy volume fader to the right of the tracks - that will allow you to drop everything with the same precision just a tick or two.

Leave the Master at 0.00 and then re-export. Should be all good

VP

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by SwitchBack on Tue May 30, 2023 6:28 pm
Sometimes it's better to address the highest peaks individually rather than lowering the level of the entire track by that much. Studio One's Limiter plug-in can prevent clipping (at the cost of a little distortion) but it can also help you find the most offending peaks.

Insert the limiter as the last insert on the main bus, select the '-1dB limiting' preset and make sure that the 'True Peak' button is lit. If you want you can raise the ceiling to -0.5dB which is usually fine for mp3 export.

Then play the track and watch the Reduction reading on the limiter. Every time a peak exceeds the ceiling more than the previous highest peak the reading goes up. You can reset the reading any time you like by clicking on it.

Once you've identified the worst peaks you can zoom in on the individual tracks in the song and use clip gain envelopes to duck the offending track(s) a little. Then listen if it still sounds good.
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by Lokeyfly on Wed May 31, 2023 8:56 am
Agreed there are more efficient means of reducing peaks. Given the OP's understanding of terms, the general balance of trimming track levels might be best dealt with as Vocalpoint suggested. I'm just a little curios as how donaldbaarns is going from the 3340 which is phono RCA, -10 dBu to his interface +4dBv. It's unknown and might possibly pose trouble way ahead of using a limiter. Hopefully, there is some junction like a mixer or matching xfmr before the audio interface for impedance matching.

But these are the unknowns.

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by donaldbaarns on Wed May 31, 2023 9:21 am
Lokeyfly wroteAgreed there are more efficient means of reducing peaks. Given the OP's understanding of terms, the general balance of trimming track levels might be best dealt with as Vocalpoint suggested. I'm just a little curios as how donaldbaarns is going from the 3340 which is phono RCA, -10 dBu to his interface +4dBv. It's unknown and might possibly pose trouble way ahead of using a limiter. Hopefully, there is some junction like a mixer or matching xfmr before the audio interface for impedance matching.

But these are the unknowns.


Sorry, tagged the wrong guy on that one, I had a 3340 decades ago, but not this combo, and never attempted to get it to an interface, only to analog consoles back in the day.

IF there is distortion before we hit the S1 recording, that's another animal.

If the clipping on a track after mixed is less than one dB, the S1 limiter will do better than 98% of the people would do with manual adjustments, even if it was just on the Master.

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by stephenrachlin on Wed May 31, 2023 9:51 am
Thanks, again. I was able to avoid clipping by reducing the Tracks a bit.

Teac 3340 (4 output channels)
AudioBox 44VSL (4 inputs on the front)
Lenovo ThinkPad (USB)

At this point, I am doing a fairly elementary project of transferring a bunch of old recordings (bands, solo stuff) to Studio One and then MP3. When I finish, I'll come back and add tracks and effects - keeping the process as simple as possible. I read through the Reference Manual and my head almost exploded.
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by Lokeyfly on Wed May 31, 2023 10:23 am
@ donaldbaarns, My bad Sir. I stated your name when I meant the OP who is stephenrachlin. Truly sorry for that. I totally get your position on mp3 encoding. Seems many of us had 3340's way back when. Lol. So did Paul McCartney, Todd Rundgren, Robert Fripp, etc, etc. and pit them to Records as well! :thumbup:

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by stephenrachlin on Wed May 31, 2023 10:38 am
Thanks, again. I was able to avoid clipping by reducing the Tracks a bit.

Teac 3340 (4 output channels)
AudioBox 44VSL (4 inputs on the front)
Lenovo ThinkPad (USB)

At this point, I am doing a fairly elementary project of transferring a bunch of old recordings (bands, solo stuff) to Studio One and then MP3. When I finish, I'll come back and add tracks and effects - keeping the process as simple as possible. I read through the Reference Manual and my head almost exploded.
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by PreAl on Wed May 31, 2023 10:39 am
Fascinating thread to read. Thankyou.

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by Lokeyfly on Wed May 31, 2023 10:40 am
stephenrachlin wroteThanks, again. I was able to avoid clipping by reducing the Tracks a bit.

Teac 3340 (4 output channels)
AudioBox 44VSL (4 inputs on the front)
Lenovo ThinkPad (USB)

At this point, I am doing a fairly elementary project of transferring a bunch of old recordings (bands, solo stuff) to Studio One and then MP3. When I finish, I'll come back and add tracks and effects - keeping the process as simple as possible. I read through the Reference Manual and my head almost exploded.

Absolutely, add effects where needed later on.
Thanks for adding your specs (later add them to your sig so you'll only have to do that once).

The added info I was driving at stephenrachlin, is the outputs on your 3340 are RCA type, yes?

Connecting that to your Audiobox 44VSL, is fairly versatile but not optimal as far as distortion goes. So assuming you have no distortion, and your good up until you combine tracks at mixdown, and you're getting the 0 7 dB overload message, try the several points given. The one being reduce tracks levels as necessary. If that becomes too harsh, though it won't likely be too bad at less than 1 dB (though it can). Try Switchbacks point of using a limiter. It's simple and will keep your signal good, while trimming only the offending peaks. Also to my point my friend is make sure you have no loud low signals from the tape deck. That reduces headroom of your mix. Not good. Add to that the encoder check if it's going to an mp3 file, and you have some good logical fodder for fixing your issue going forward.

If you are considering adding affects later, I'd seriously look at doing that while the tracks are in Studio One and are separate as opposed to layering on top of the combined mix. Just saying. ;)
Last edited by Lokeyfly on Wed May 31, 2023 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by stephenrachlin on Wed May 31, 2023 12:12 pm
Another question: You recommend that I keep the Main Out at 0.00. When I put the slider at 0, it says -3.0 at the top. If I move the slider to 4, I get 0.0 at the top. Which is the 0.00 you recommend?
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by Lokeyfly on Wed May 31, 2023 12:31 pm
If your metering is set on True Peak (TP). And your Main out faders are set to 0, that's what you'll want (unity). Not at my computer but I suspect the -3 that you're seeing is the level that you're getting which is the combined level of your tracks at the top of the main channel out. Therefore the total level out is -3dB. Leave the main faders at zero, always.

Just keep in mind, a mixdown may produce another overload notice due to combined peaks at some same point in time, but try it. If you're looking to make that -3 hotter, bring up the tracks together. Either by highlighting each track and with one motion bring up one of those faders. They should all move together.

If the results are good upon mixing down, or even for that matter, you want a still louder or less problematic mix, then look to using a limiter. Likely on each track.

Another bonus is if you look at the waveforms on each track (what switchback was refering to), and see some overly loud points in the waveform, you can right click on the event, select "Clip Gain", and click in the center line around the loud waveform. Now drag downward and you'll see the waveform be reduced only in that spot. Very useful. If you have too many like that, you'll want to choose the limiter or compressor effects insted. It's a careful and effective (but subtle) affair. Don't feel intimidated. The tools are there.

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by stephenrachlin on Wed May 31, 2023 2:52 pm
Another question: You recommend that I keep the Main Out at 0.00. When I put the slider at 0, it says -3.0 at the top. If I move the slider to 4, I get 0.0 at the top. Which is the 0.00 you recommend?

It's apparent that I don't understand those indicators because I have the same confusion with the individual Track meter.

Related issue: When I record from the TEAC 3340 to Studio One - that is, when I create the initial SONG file, I am monitoring the Track meters to keep it out of the red. It doesn't matter, at that point, if the Main Out is bouncing into the red. When I do the Mixdown from the SONG to the MP3, I have to monitor the Main Out to assure that it stays out of the red. Is this correct?

Another assumption that I am making: I maximize the TEAC 3340 volume, the AudioBox inputs sit at about 4. Should I also try to maximize the AudioBox volume until I start to see the clipping light?
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by SwitchBack on Wed May 31, 2023 3:31 pm
stephenrachlin wroteAnother question: You recommend that I keep the Main Out at 0.00. When I put the slider at 0, it says -3.0 at the top. If I move the slider to 4, I get 0.0 at the top. Which is the 0.00 you recommend?

Don't confuse the fader position with the meter scale. The numbers to the side of the meter are only for the meter. The fader position is indicated by the number on top (and a few very dim lines under the fader knob).

So advice is to keep the main fader at 0dB. Still, nothing bad will happen if you don't other than that you'll always have to remember that it's not at 0dB (which can catch you out when you start adjusting levels inside the song). But it's the absolute quickest way to correct clipping when exporting a mix.
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by stephenrachlin on Wed May 31, 2023 6:35 pm
Thanks again.
When I am doing the mixdown, is it possible to move the faders? For example, I want to bring up the guitar at a certain point.

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