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TonalDynamics wrote OS updates, OTOH, are notoriously risky from Microsoft


TD

Your situation is unique (LTSC) no doubt - but it is one that you chose to take and unfortunately, it's one that you will need to rectify one way or another.

And I would challenge any blanket statement that OS updates are notoriously risky. They may very well have been risky back in like 2002 - but I have done countless Win 10 (and now Win 11 in my TEST environment) upgrades to physical hardware, VMs with all sorts of weird configs here and have seen no evidence of any issues with moving from one "feature" upgrade to the next.

FWIW - I too was LTSC on the DAW (using both 2019 AND 2021) at various points within the last 4 years - but (oddly) decided to install Pro back in March 2021 when I build this current rig.

I am planning a midyear refresh here this summer, but this specific discovery has taught me a valuable lesson and I am now committed to remain on a flavour of Win 10 that will be supported (and upgradable) until we hit Oct 2025 and a possible sunsetting of Win 10.

My version of Windows 10 Pro here is heavily modified for performance and stability AND it screams. I cannot see how I could improve upon that for the (now) negligible benefits I would get running LTSC at this point.

Cheers

VP

DAW: Studio One Pro 6.5.1.96553 | Host OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2 | Motherboard: ASUS PRIME z790-A | CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-13600K | RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 64GB | Graphics: Intel UHD 770 (HDMI) | Audio Interface: RME UCX II (v1.246) | OS Drive : Samsung 990 PRO (1TB) | Media Drive: Samsung 970 EVO Plus (500GB) | Libraries: Samsung 970 EVO+ (2TB) | Samples : Seagate FireCuda (2TB) | Monitoring: Presonus Monitor Station v2 + Presonus Eris 5 | MIDI Control: Native Instruments Komplete S61 & Presonus ATOM
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by Vocalpoint on Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:48 am
TonalDynamics wrote Interesting... I thought it was impossible to upgrade LTSC from within Windows Update itself (a quick search seems to confirm this)? Did it just offer you the option somehow or did you have the ISO for 2021 downloaded perhaps and it detected it?


Was Jeff running LTSC? Thought it was just plain ole 1909...?

VP

DAW: Studio One Pro 6.5.1.96553 | Host OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2 | Motherboard: ASUS PRIME z790-A | CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-13600K | RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 64GB | Graphics: Intel UHD 770 (HDMI) | Audio Interface: RME UCX II (v1.246) | OS Drive : Samsung 990 PRO (1TB) | Media Drive: Samsung 970 EVO Plus (500GB) | Libraries: Samsung 970 EVO+ (2TB) | Samples : Seagate FireCuda (2TB) | Monitoring: Presonus Monitor Station v2 + Presonus Eris 5 | MIDI Control: Native Instruments Komplete S61 & Presonus ATOM
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by TonalDynamics on Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:30 pm
Vocalpoint wroteFWIW - I too was LTSC on the DAW (using both 2019 AND 2021) at various points within the last 4 years - but (oddly) decided to install Pro back in March 2021 when I build this current rig.


Mmm ok well this is the pain point for me atm; did you use the 'in-place' method with a '21 ISO or just do a fresh install when you went from 2019 to 2021? Fresh is practically out of the question for me until I make my new build in a few years, I've done countless customization of my OS and apps.

If I could figure out how to let WIN update itself perform the '21 update like Jih seems to have done (somehow?!) I'd be in business, but I'm fairly certain that's impossible for me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Composer for Media, Producer, Noodler.

System Specs:

Studio One Professional v6.5

Windows 10 LTSC 21H2, i9 10850k, 128gb RAM, 6 TB SSD+6 TB HDD, RME Fireface 800
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by Vocalpoint on Mon Mar 27, 2023 12:40 pm
TonalDynamics wrote Mmm ok well this is the pain point for me atm; did you use the 'in-place' method with a '21 ISO or just do a fresh install when you went from 2019 to 2021?


This new rig was new hardware and I always start from scratch. But I build all my OS ISOs by hand using MDT, NTLite and a variety of other tools - so all my OS customizations are pre-baked in and I can roll out a new instance at any time.

And I keep copious notes, registry keys, backups on my apps too - so it not a huge deal to start fresh and with new hardware - that's the only way to fly.

And I will do the same this summer with a fresh clean build. From start to finish - it's a weekend but the end result is fast and furious and ready for the next two years.

TonalDynamics wrote If I could figure out how to let WIN update itself perform the '21 update like Jih seems to have done (somehow?!) I'd be in business, but I'm fairly certain that's impossible for me.


While it appears (on the surface) that updating LTSC on the fly is not possible - I may be able to help on this. Sent you a PM for your reading pleasure.

Cheers!

VP

DAW: Studio One Pro 6.5.1.96553 | Host OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2 | Motherboard: ASUS PRIME z790-A | CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-13600K | RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 64GB | Graphics: Intel UHD 770 (HDMI) | Audio Interface: RME UCX II (v1.246) | OS Drive : Samsung 990 PRO (1TB) | Media Drive: Samsung 970 EVO Plus (500GB) | Libraries: Samsung 970 EVO+ (2TB) | Samples : Seagate FireCuda (2TB) | Monitoring: Presonus Monitor Station v2 + Presonus Eris 5 | MIDI Control: Native Instruments Komplete S61 & Presonus ATOM
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by PreAl on Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:32 pm
PreAl wrote the idea that the OS should never be updated from time to time, whilst at the same time almost immediately updating applications running on the OS as they are released, is somehow a perfect stability and reliability scenario is ludicrous, and shows a fundamental misunderstanding on how software is tested (which is almost always done on the latest patched platform) and how software dependencies work.


TonalDynamics wroteExcept that it's an apples and oranges comparison, because it's far simpler -- and in my case far more technically feasible -- to start using/testing new app revisions than it is to install large OS feature updates


Not an apples and oranges comparison.

Please check my comment again about software dependencies..It's not either update app or update OS situation, it's both and how they integrate. The latest apps are built and tested on the latest software libraries, you're running the latest app on older OS libraries. Not necessarily the greatest idea.

It's the same scenario the other way around, you wanna run the latest OS updates under an older app, well that maybe not such a good idea either. The more there is a gap in-between the OS and the app, the more you may run into difficulties.

And backing yourself in the corner with an environment that can be hard to upgrade.. disastrous. Pretty rare situation however.

The absolute classic is when somebody updates an app, and something goes immediately wrong, and then they immediately blame the app because that was the last thing they updated, when in fact that doesn't actually tell us anything (could be the app, could be the OS libraries are out of date or something else like drivers, without further diagnosis it's all up in the air, there are certainly no conclusions to be had). If you are lucky the app stops you before upgrading if there is an issue to be had. In the past the app would upgrade and then all sorts of issues could occur (still happens but luckily quite rare with mainstream software nowadays, sadly it's not rare with plugins that run on DAWs).

If you want the stability status quo to be maintained, then as I keep repeating, don't update the app or the OS. Or otherwise you periodically (and that's a whole subject in itself) need to keep it all up to date (and regularly back up). You can be selective about what update you install (for instance it is not a good idea not to install security updates when you are on the internet)..I don't bother with this, but I do delay updates by 30 days or more if I can in the windows group policy (so other people can test the updates before I install them, which is what clued up IT departments do, delaying updates by 1-2 months keeps things running smoothly, any longer and you may run into out of date dependencies).

Intel i9 9900K (Gigabyte Z390 DESIGNARE motherboard), 32GB RAM, EVGA Geforce 1070 (Nvidia drivers).
Dell Inspiron 7591 (2 in 1) 16Gb.
Studio One Pro 6.x, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit, also running it on Mac OS Catalina via dual boot (experimental).
Presonus Quantum 2626, Presonus Studio 26c, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, Faderport Classic (1.45), Atom SQ, Atom Pad, Maschine Studio, Octapad SPD-30, Roland A300, a number of hardware synths.
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by jih64 on Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:51 pm
TonalDynamics wrote
jih64 wroteNo, I may have said it wrong, I did the update from 1909 to 21H2 via Windows update.
I originally done an 'in place' update/upgrade whatever, from Windows 7 to Windows 10 on all my machines bar 1, from there on all updates have been done via Windows Update, but at my choosing, like now I am locked down again and won't update again until I choose. I wouldn't have updated from 1909 except for Studio One 6.1

My latest System Drive Image was 337GB it only contains music recording/production related stuff, no sample files for VSTi's or anything like that, that all has it's own drives.


Interesting... I thought it was impossible to upgrade LTSC from within Windows Update itself (a quick search seems to confirm this)? Did it just offer you the option somehow or did you have the ISO for 2021 downloaded perhaps and it detected it?

If I could find some way to just use WinUpdate instead of in-place I'd probably try it out as soon as my new NVMe gets here, but no luck so far in discovering such a method!


We are probably talking about different things.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is LTSC?

For every Arthur C Clarke quoter, there is a know-all who likes to quote Arthur C Clarke
- unknown
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by MisterE on Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:38 pm
jih64 wroteForgive my ignorance, but what is LTSC?

It's the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle of Windows operating systems. One out of a hundred thousand people has one, but in their dream world every gas station carries it.

{two hours later} Couldn't resist the wisecrack but I oughta at least answer your quesiton: it's a variation of Windows that never gets updated for people who are paranoid about Windows updates. It's not easily available to the general public, one of many reasons it has such meagre market share and is not always supported by major DAW companies like Presonus. Of course it has passionate defenders ... but I stand by my wisecrack. Some people are also passionate about rattlesnake meat, but I've only been to one restaurant that serves it.
Last edited by MisterE on Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AMD Ryzen 5600X CPU | Gigabyte B550 Vision D-P mobo | WD Black 2TB PCIe 4.0 NVME SSD | Crucial Ballistix 32GB 3600 mhz RAM | MSI Geforce 3060 Ti Gaming X | Win10 64-bit | S1 v6.0.2 | Mackie Onyx Blackbird interface | Korg M3 | Arturia Keylab 49 mkII
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by PreAl on Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:56 pm
It's more like a radio channel that plays non stop Jazz and Swing music, where the audience may have a heart attack if Miley Cirus accidentally got played.

https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/ ... a-p/293181

"Application support: With each Semi-Annual Channel release following an LTSC release, there is a growing gap in APIs and functionality between the current Windows API in use by most all devices, and previous LTSC releases. Many ISVs do not support LTSC editions for their applications, as they want their applications to use the latest innovation and capabilities to give users the best experience. This is the case with Office ProPlus, which does not support Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC releases as it relies on Windows 10 feature updates and the Semi-Annual Channel to deliver the best user experience with the latest capabilities. (If you were using Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019, you would, therefore, need to use Office 2019.)"

Intel i9 9900K (Gigabyte Z390 DESIGNARE motherboard), 32GB RAM, EVGA Geforce 1070 (Nvidia drivers).
Dell Inspiron 7591 (2 in 1) 16Gb.
Studio One Pro 6.x, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit, also running it on Mac OS Catalina via dual boot (experimental).
Presonus Quantum 2626, Presonus Studio 26c, Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, Faderport Classic (1.45), Atom SQ, Atom Pad, Maschine Studio, Octapad SPD-30, Roland A300, a number of hardware synths.
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by TonalDynamics on Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:47 pm
MisterE wrote
jih64 wroteForgive my ignorance, but what is LTSC?

It's the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle of Windows operating systems. One out of a hundred thousand people has one, but in their dream world every gas station carries it.


Is it kind of like those recurring dreams you have where all your absurd analogies and feeble jabs about people smoking weed are actually clever?

Pleasant fictions indeed.

MisterE wroteit's a variation of Windows that never gets updated for people who are paranoid about Windows updates

Utterly laughable. If you've never had Windows break your PC with an update, you're either one of the lucky ones or you simply haven't been using computers long enough. It's not 'paranoia', it's 'I want to keep making money, so let's try not to let Microsoft fumble around and **** up my PC'.

There's loads of pro workstations for various trades running LTSC, pro audio guys included.
Your ignorance of the use-cases doesn't negate its practicality when system stability is the foremost concern.

In any case, you and I are done talking.
🤡

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Composer for Media, Producer, Noodler.

System Specs:

Studio One Professional v6.5

Windows 10 LTSC 21H2, i9 10850k, 128gb RAM, 6 TB SSD+6 TB HDD, RME Fireface 800
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by TonalDynamics on Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:53 pm
jih64 wroteWe are probably talking about different things.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is LTSC?

Ah that's my bad, I confused you with another user in the thread who had LTSC.
Whoops!

As to what it is, it's essentially the enterprise version of Windows 10. It's used for things like shopping mall kiosks, industrial control terminals, medical access interfaces, or generally any situation where stability and reliability is the primary concern over new features (a description which, as a working pro audio guy fits my DAW to a T).

There's an entire subreddit devoted to it with some good info as well. Apparently there's also a Win11 LTSC in the pipeline.

VP above typed a paragraph highlighting all the effort and tools he utilizes to optimize his Windows installations (he ran it himself like me for a time), and to de-bloat them; the allure of LTSC is that it does this for you right out of the gate, without needing the appropriate time and technical expertise of someone in an IT/software dev. field.

PreAl wrote"Application support: With each Semi-Annual Channel release following an LTSC release, there is a growing gap in APIs and functionality between the current Windows API in use by most all devices, and previous LTSC releases. Many ISVs do not support LTSC editions for their applications, as they want their applications to use the latest innovation and capabilities to give users the best experience. This is the case with Office ProPlus, which does not support Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC releases as it relies on Windows 10 feature updates and the Semi-Annual Channel to deliver the best user experience with the latest capabilities. (If you were using Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019, you would, therefore, need to use Office 2019.)"


You keep repeating this, so I'm going to repeat myself as well: No support =/= No compatibility:
TonalDynamics wroteThere are a grand total of 0 of my (updated) creative applications that won't run on W10 LTSC 1809, including:

  1. Photoshop
  2. After Effects
  3. Premiere Pro
  4. Firefox+Chrome
  5. Figma
  6. Scrivener
  7. Evernote
  8. Obsidian
  9. Cinema 4D
  10. VS Code
  11. Any game you could possibly think of on Steam
  12. Topaz Gigapixel AI
  13. Every standalone NDSP plugin
  14. Bluestacks X
  15. Melodyne 5
  16. Kontakt 7
  17. Git
  18. Guitar Pro 8
  19. Izotope RX Pro
  20. Izotope Ozone 10
  21. Reaper 6.78 (latest)

And many more


Anyway this thread's been real but it's becoming a bit circular and feels like everything worth saying has been said.

Good luck to all those who were taken by surprise by this move and are unable to update!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Composer for Media, Producer, Noodler.

System Specs:

Studio One Professional v6.5

Windows 10 LTSC 21H2, i9 10850k, 128gb RAM, 6 TB SSD+6 TB HDD, RME Fireface 800
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by flow on Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:23 am
Hi guys,
we have technical reasons for not allowing installation on older version of Windows.
We indeed missed to update the requirements at the time of release and we apologize for that.
LTSC and other Enterprise versions are not supported at any time.

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QA Specialist, PreSonus Software, Hamburg, Germany
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Mainly MacOS, guest star appearances on Windows & Linux

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