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Win10 Pro, Studio One 6 Pro, X-Touch MINI ...

I think I have routing correct as the initial learning works fine. I go thru the process and save the preset. I verify by changing, then reloading the preset. All is good.

When I come back to the preset a few days later, the previously learned MIDI assignments are gone like they never happened. Again, the routing appears to be correct because everything readily learns again.

Anybody else?

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by JohnBW on Wed Feb 01, 2023 1:33 pm
BobF wroteWin10 Pro, Studio One 6 Pro, X-Touch MINI ...

I think I have routing correct as the initial learning works fine. I go thru the process and save the preset. I verify by changing, then reloading the preset. All is good.

When I come back to the preset a few days later, the previously learned MIDI assignments are gone like they never happened. Again, the routing appears to be correct because everything readily learns again.

Anybody else?

Well I tried Guitar Rig 6 as an FX insert on an instrument track. But had no luck at all getting MIDI learn to work with any FX plugin, including Guitar Rig 6. I tested Guitar Rig 6 in standalone mode and MIDI learn works fine with my controller.

Also the MIDI learn would work fine on the virtual instrument itself, but it appears as if the MIDI CCs are never reaching the FX insert. Whenever I activated MIDI learn on any FX plugin, it would just continue to wait for a signal that never got there, even as I was twisting knobs and faders.

So I am truly stumped as to how you managed to get as far as you did. I'm guessing that Studio One may be intercepting the control messages.

Are you saving your S1 project after you establish MIDI learn, or are you just depending on the plugin preset to retain your MIDI learn mapping?

Studio One Pro v5.5.2, Win10 Pro
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by BobF on Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:08 pm
Saved project and preset. A bit of experimentation taught me that GR6 doesn't remember learned MIDI per component, which would be nice, but instead stores per preset.

The 'trick' for Guitar Rig and Amplitube is to have an Inst. Track setup with the controller as the input device. It has to be defined as a keyboard and controls mapped via Control Link will never get thru.

In the Inst. Track output, set Guitar Rig. Enable Mon. for the instr track. Good to go.

Except when it forgets what it learned and has to be retrained.

So far AmpliTube remembers. More than anything else, my hatred for AT5 is the difficulty reading the interface controls. Other than not being able to see what I'm setting, I like the rest of it :D

Worth reiterating:
-- If the controller is not defined as a keyboard, you won't be able to select it as an input device.
-- Any control learned by Control Link will not be usable whether assigned in the current focus or not. Unassigned CL-mapped controls will not pass thru.

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by JohnBW on Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:31 pm
BobF wroteSaved project and preset. A bit of experimentation taught me that GR6 doesn't remember learned MIDI per component, which would be nice, but instead stores per preset.

The 'trick' for Guitar Rig and Amplitube is to have an Inst. Track setup with the controller as the input device. It has to be defined as a keyboard and controls mapped via Control Link will never get thru.

In the Inst. Track output, set Guitar Rig. Enable Mon. for the instr track. Good to go.

Except when it forgets what it learned and has to be retrained.

So far AmpliTube remembers. More than anything else, my hatred for AT5 is the difficulty reading the interface controls. Other than not being able to see what I'm setting, I like the rest of it :D

Worth reiterating:
-- If the controller is not defined as a keyboard, you won't be able to select it as an input device.
-- Any control learned by Control Link will not be usable whether assigned in the current focus or not. Unassigned CL-mapped controls will not pass thru.

I don't use Control Link.

My MIDI controller is defined as a keyboard, and is used as input to an instrument track. MIDI learn works just fine on an instrument that supports it on that track.

I really haven't had a need to MIDI learn an FX plugin, so I wasn't aware it had to be set to the instrument track output. Will try again.

From what you have said about GR6 forgetting, I assume that might be worth testing in another DAW to see if the problem follows the plugin.

Studio One Pro v5.5.2, Win10 Pro
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by BobF on Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:41 pm
JohnBW wrote
BobF wroteSaved project and preset. A bit of experimentation taught me that GR6 doesn't remember learned MIDI per component, which would be nice, but instead stores per preset.

The 'trick' for Guitar Rig and Amplitube is to have an Inst. Track setup with the controller as the input device. It has to be defined as a keyboard and controls mapped via Control Link will never get thru.

In the Inst. Track output, set Guitar Rig. Enable Mon. for the instr track. Good to go.

Except when it forgets what it learned and has to be retrained.

So far AmpliTube remembers. More than anything else, my hatred for AT5 is the difficulty reading the interface controls. Other than not being able to see what I'm setting, I like the rest of it :D

Worth reiterating:
-- If the controller is not defined as a keyboard, you won't be able to select it as an input device.
-- Any control learned by Control Link will not be usable whether assigned in the current focus or not. Unassigned CL-mapped controls will not pass thru.

I don't use Control Link.

My MIDI controller is defined as a keyboard, and is used as input to an instrument track. MIDI learn works just fine on an instrument that supports it on that track.

I really haven't had a need to MIDI learn an FX plugin, so I wasn't aware it had to be set to the instrument track output. Will try again.

From what you have said about GR6 forgetting, I assume that might be worth testing in another DAW to see if the problem follows the plugin.


R****r is on deck.

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by JohnBW on Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:56 pm
BobF wrote
R****r is on deck.

I almost mentioned the "R" word... LOL!!! :mrgreen:

Studio One Pro v5.5.2, Win10 Pro
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by JohnBW on Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:00 am
BobF wroteThe 'trick' for Guitar Rig and Amplitube is to have an Inst. Track setup with the controller as the input device. It has to be defined as a keyboard and controls mapped via Control Link will never get thru.

In the Inst. Track output, set Guitar Rig. Enable Mon. for the instr track. Good to go.

The only way I could get this to work was to insert a 2nd instrument track with no instrument, and the output routed to GR6. Same input (my keyboard on both tracks).

My first instrument track output only allowed me to select my instrument, or GR6, but not both. Is there another way to accomplish this in S1 without dedicating a 2nd instrument track just to send MIDI output to GR6?

Studio One Pro v5.5.2, Win10 Pro
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by JohnBW on Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:10 am
JohnBW wrote
BobF wrote
R****r is on deck.

I almost mentioned the "R" word... LOL!!! :mrgreen:

Didn't have to go "R" route yet...

Some observations after I got MIDI learn working with GR6 in S1.

1. MIDI learn settings saved in the project, but not in the GR6 preset.

2. If I delete GR6 and reinsert a new instance, the MIDI learn is forgotten.

3. If I close the project without saving the new instance of GR6 and reopen the original saved project, the MIDI learn is still remembered.

4. If I remove the components in the current GR6 preset instance and add them back, the MIDI learn is forgotten.

Studio One Pro v5.5.2, Win10 Pro
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by BobF on Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:24 am
JohnBW wrote
JohnBW wrote
BobF wrote
R****r is on deck.

I almost mentioned the "R" word... LOL!!! :mrgreen:

Didn't have to go "R" route yet...

Some observations after I got MIDI learn working with GR6 in S1.

1. MIDI learn settings saved in the project, but not in the GR6 preset.

2. If I delete GR6 and reinsert a new instance, the MIDI learn is forgotten.

3. If I close the project without saving the new instance of GR6 and reopen the original saved project, the MIDI learn is still remembered.

4. If I remove the components in the current GR6 preset instance and add them back, the MIDI learn is forgotten.


Thanks John. I'll run a series myself when I get a chance. I *swear* I was able to load up a GR6 preset with learned MIDI in a new song different from the one the mapping was done in. Would be useless to me otherwise. I mean, why bother?

Maybe a track template would work ... gee a track template for every GR component doesn't sound right either.

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by BobF on Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:55 pm
Quick update:
- Learned MIDI is apparently saved with the song rather than GR preset

- Track Presets (V6) *do* preserve the learned MIDI for new songs. The target instance of GR has to be set in the Inst Track after loading the Track Preset, but that is a lot quicker/easier than redoing the entire config.

For SO versions earlier than V6, Import Song Data *might* be an option.

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by JohnBW on Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:04 pm
BobF wrote
Thanks John. I'll run a series myself when I get a chance. I *swear* I was able to load up a GR6 preset with learned MIDI in a new song different from the one the mapping was done in. Would be useless to me otherwise. I mean, why bother?

Maybe a track template would work ... gee a track template for every GR component doesn't sound right either.

Update: I tried it in a couple of other DAWs, including Reaper. Something also appears to be janky with GR 6.

The GR 6 preset would recall the MIDI learn for the first control that I learned, but not the second one that I learned. Consistent weird behavior with the alternate DAWs that I tested with.

FYI, I'm still on Studio One Pro 5.5.2 here...

Studio One Pro v5.5.2, Win10 Pro
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by JohnBW on Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:17 pm
BobF wroteFor SO versions earlier than V6, Import Song Data *might* be an option.

Import Song Data worked here in v5. Opened a new song and just imported the two tracks I had setup in the original song, and left all other import options at default.

Studio One Pro v5.5.2, Win10 Pro
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by Lokeyfly on Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:24 pm
I'll give it a whirl later with GR6 and 5, with S1 v6.
I'll see if it saves and opens in a new song.

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by reggie1979beatz on Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:17 pm
JohnBW wrote
BobF wrote
Thanks John. I'll run a series myself when I get a chance. I *swear* I was able to load up a GR6 preset with learned MIDI in a new song different from the one the mapping was done in. Would be useless to me otherwise. I mean, why bother?

Maybe a track template would work ... gee a track template for every GR component doesn't sound right either.

Update: I tried it in a couple of other DAWs, including Reaper. Something also appears to be janky with GR 6.

The GR 6 preset would recall the MIDI learn for the first control that I learned, but not the second one that I learned. Consistent weird behavior with the alternate DAWs that I tested with.

FYI, I'm still on Studio One Pro 5.5.2 here...


You know, I have GR 6 "LE" (or whatever it's called) and this thread a "watcher" until now has me curious.

However, as someone who "has them all" ( :lol: ) maybe it's time to move on? Not a great time of the year to do that though (The Nembrini stuff was amazingly cheap during BF and XMAS, but not now)

Neural DSP usually can use coupons (microsoft egege here) and get some good prices.

Or there is "knobcloud" where you can find great prices on virtually anything.

but I digress, this SHOULD work properly.

Bye......:roll:
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by Lokeyfly on Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:41 pm
I tried GRig6 with both store (Studio One) and save (GRig). Then on the track, I stored as track preset.

Then opened a new song, created a new audio track, so technically no instrument or controller was identified. I loaded the track preset without any issue.

I also recalled the original saved preset that was in GRig6 fron the new song.

Lastly, I added a new instrument track in the new song. Loaded the track preset, and there it was. I also then added a Bluecat Audio AccuFiend, and they both showed up as expected.

It may take more detailed steps here, or as you mentioned may change through some short time, or days. I don't think it will, but I'll save and check later.

It's very possible I'm just not following the issue as you see it. I'm sort of missing the controller part or "learned MIDI" to be honest. I'm assuming we're talking about saving and recalling presets. Yes, in a round about way, saving MIDI SYS EX. I'm sort of leaving the MIDI discussion out of it.

I didn't bother with GRig5 since I didn't have an issue with 6.

Hope I didn't derail the discussion, if I missed something.

S1-6.0.1, HP Omen 17" i7 10th Gen Laptop, 32 GB ram,512 GB TLC M.2 (SSD) and 1 TB SSD. Win10 Pro, Audient iD14 MkII, Controllers: Roland JV-90, Arturia Keylab 49 MkII, Atom SQ, Faderport 8, Roland GR-50, Roland Octapad. MIDI Patchbay: MOTU MIDI Express XT, Monitors: Mackie HR824, Yamaha HS-7, NS-1000M, Mixer: Yamaha Promix 01, Rane HC-6 Headphone Mixer.

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by JohnBW on Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:14 pm
Lokeyfly wroteIt's very possible I'm just not following the issue as you see it. I'm sort of missing the controller part or "learned MIDI" to be honest. I'm assuming we're talking about saving and recalling presets. Yes, in a round about way, saving MIDI SYS EX. I'm sort of leaving the MIDI discussion out of it.

MIDI learn is all that we were discussing. The GR6 presets recall just fine, other than they tend to forget the CC mapping done via MIDI learn of controls via the GR6 UI.

I'm thinking likely a NI issue...

But bottom line, GR6 is not a go-to plugin for me, but since I have it I thought to give Bob an assist if I could.

I occasionally like to use GR6 as a creative effect for soft synths, but have never tried to use MIDI learn with it until now. I guess that is really the only use case for MIDI learn on FX plugin controls, as an extension of the instrument for "playing" the insert effect in real-time.

Otherwise, have not had any issues with GR6.

Studio One Pro v5.5.2, Win10 Pro
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by BobF on Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:47 pm
Learning MIDI for individual UI controls is the issue. I use an X-Touch MINI so I can have knobs at hand to adjust amp controls instead of reaching for the mouse, which is clumsy with a guitar in hand.

I posted this at the NI GR forum at the same time I posted here. Cricket chirps is all I've heard so far. In my mind this is an NI/GR problem. I can't imagine a plug-in relying on the save to this kind of configuration.

Control Link as implemented isn't suitable for this. CL would work fine for the outer layer UI, but the inner components not so much.

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by Lokeyfly on Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:14 pm
@ both BobF and JohnBW.
I see. OK, understood. Using the controls from Rig6, and having those mappings save. They eventually dont stay. .

I never really save the mappings from GRig or most any Guitar/cab processor. Just the nature of the beast, although there's good reason to do that at times.

I'll keep an eye out though as it may crop up. And GR5 has evidently been reliable with this. Bummer for 6.

Same here John, I like GRig 6 for its esoteric sounds, but that's it. It's tremendous on the creative side, but I whole heartedly think they lost the guitar stack and room emulations that Guitar Rig 5 was pretty good at.
Funny, before I even ran my non needed test tonight, I was using automation on a wah wah, that slowly brought out the narrow frequency band, only I drew the automation and didn't map it. So with that, tomorrow I'll run the test via mapping it, as it's basically in place to do that.
Thanks for clarifying the issue. I'll givebit another try.
After the music. ;)

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by Lokeyfly on Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:03 am
I won't be able to test this until late tonight or tomorrow morning. I'll try both global and focus mapping. Though it seems that focus mapping may be best here. It's also a good idea to save your mapping to one of your controllers presets so that if by any chance, your mapping loses focus, there's no need to reassign controllers all over again.

I'm mobile, I'll try this with the Atom SQ.
I typically use the Control Link because it let's me know the current link is made (particularly with automation). Secondly, it's a drag & drop affair, though sometimes I may have to hunt for MIDI cc's with external synths/equipment.

Looking ahead, I suspect what BobF is experiencing holds true, as NI stuff in general is touch and go with some parameters or instruments on a whole.

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by BobF on Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:23 am
Lokeyfly wroteI won't be able to test this until late tonight or tomorrow morning. I'll try both global and focus mapping. Though it seems that focus mapping may be best here. It's also a good idea to save your mapping to one of your controllers presets so that if by any chance, your mapping loses focus, there's no need to reassign controllers all over again.

I'm mobile, I'll try this with the Atom SQ.
I typically use the Control Link because it let's me know the current link is made (particularly with automation). Secondly, it's a drag & drop affair, though sometimes I may have to hunt for MIDI cc's with external synths/equipment.

Looking ahead, I suspect what BobF is experiencing holds true, as NI stuff in general is touch and go with some parameters or instruments on a whole.


Please do experiment, but something to keep in mind with CL ...
Let's say you have a Twang Reverb amp loaded and you map SQ-Knob 1 to the amp Volume control. That will work, in a clumsy way, but it will work. Now save the preset, clear that rack and load up another rack with a different amp model. Map SQ-Knob 1 to this amp's Volume control. Save the preset, clear and load the first preset. SQ-Knob 1 will no longer control the amp Volume.

Control Link doesn't recognize/allow for mapping preset by preset. Using Control Link is taking over the mapping from GR, but GR is the one that knows presets. GR MIDI learn can't be used with any MIDI control that has been learned by Control Link as CL does NOT pass the data thru to the plug-in. Instead, CL consumes the data for its own use.

What would be nice, would be CL passing the data thru *IF* the control is learned by CL, but not mapped/assigned in the current focus. Even better if this data is passed thru without the need for an additional Inst Track to carry the data. The pathway is already there for CL, sooooooo ....

Too bad we can't have nice things :D In the mean time, I'm going back to GR5 to see what shakes there. AmpliTube too. An NI person said 3 weeks ago that an update to GR6 would be out in 2 weeks. Hopefully that update will address this.

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RC w/Galaxy S7+ / KKS61MK2 / Atom SQ

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