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I'm coming from Pro Tools, which in my opinion, no other DAW that I have used has gotten it right in comparison.

I think Studio One is kind of close and has some good features, but here's the issue for me:

Having to analyze every track you want to make a slice, and having to do that individually per track. If you do it as a group, it kind of works out, but still makes random cuts on the bend markers you don't want to cut. For example, a Kick and Tom flam; sometimes, it makes one cohesive cut for both favoring the Kick, sometimes it makes two separate cuts that are super close together. It's completely random.

Ideally, the best way this should work is like this (and I confidently state this as best in a friendly manner):

Select your drum tracks >
make a group >
select the Guides for the drums (sometimes this could be literally Kick, Snare, and three Toms, or even hi hat and ride as well) >
Hit analyze >
At that point, it will analyze all transients on the Guide tracks (all chosen tracks), and then put ONE vertical Bend Marker in place depending on which track takes precedence.
If the Kick is being played, obviously that's where the Bend Marker goes. If the Snare is being played, that's where the Bend Marker goes. If a Kick and Tom are being played at the same time, the bend marker chooses whatever has precedence according to the Guides and puts ONE vertical Bend Marker (precedence most likely based on amplitude of the file) .

With the way it works now, it's completely random and you have to edit your workflow depending on how the drum part goes; choose different guides, look at the confusing grid with multiple bend markers in ALL random spots and try to decipher which is the right one, etc., and then it still adds extra cuts that you have to manually edit out any way.

Does anyone agree with this or relate to the clunkiness of this workflow? If it just worked as a group and put a single vertical Bend Marker on the tracks that take precedence at a given moment, then you're only dealing with ONE vertical line, and if it isn't where you want it upon checking, just slide it over if it got it wrong, i.e. during a Kick Snare flam section; it chose Kick, but you want the Bend Marker on the Snare; slide it over: DONE. Add a "Trigger Pad" option as well so that it makes the cuts before the bend markers according to a specified millisecond length as to preserve little flams.

This would speed up workflow incredibly.

DAW's:
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Pro Tools Studio 2023.12.1

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by Trucky on Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:57 am
The easiest way to find out is to post a Feature Request for it so users can vote on it:

https://answers.presonus.com/questions/studio-one-feature-requests

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by shanabit on Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:12 pm
Honestly EVERYONE LOVES the Audio Editing in Protools. Why other DAWs try and re invent this is beyond me?? Just copy the feature set and move on. It would eliminate most complaints.

Cubase is messing as well, same type of thing

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by Lokeyfly on Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:02 pm
Mmv, but Melodyne still has it over most when it comes to multitrack and polyphonic editing of audio. I've used Pro Tools from its inception (and still do), and it does excel in some audio editing (certainly not its rather sparse MIDI editing). Simply Put, Studio One's ARA technology brought most other DAW's up to speed and that's both a feather in Celemony and Presonus' cap.

With ARA, random has less guesswork when defining and locating transients, overall frequency, tempo, and amplitude.. The window or shall we say playhead is much broader and therefore there is is better definition over waveforms, it's transients, and it's ability to decipher tonal & and multple changes.

I think coming from most any DAW one is used to using, makes it easy to critique another DAW's process. Quite honestly, I don't see the advantage with Protools, at least in this portion of drum audio transient locating.

mikesupina wrote: "Having to analyze every track you want to make a slice, and having to do that individually per track."

Have you tried using Melodyne Editor, or Melodyne Studio?
Granted, that isn't the core Studio One audio editor, but the integration of the two are top notch.

Otherwise, as mentioned, you can always make a feature request to give the subject traction. Probably a good thing.

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by shanabit on Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:10 am
Keep in mind Lokeyfly that you need the more expensive versions of Melodyne to do that.

I think we are talking just what's built into StudioOne here.

I agree most want their new DAW to work exactly as the old and that is not realistic at all

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by Lokeyfly on Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:31 am
shanabit wroteKeep in mind Lokeyfly that you need the more expensive versions of Melodyne to do that.

I think we are talking just what's built into StudioOne here.

I agree most want their new DAW to work exactly as the old and that is not realistic at all



Absolutely

As I mentioned "Granted, that isn't the core Studio One audio editor, but the integration of the two are top notch."

Pricing is pretty all over the place nowadays with subscriptions and add on's. and yes, Melodyne Editor as an upgrade to the supplied version is a chunk of change at about $200. Studio One Pro at Approx $350, yet Pro Tools prior to subscriptions was about $500. In any case, using Melodyne to any length where singling out and manipulating pitch, amplitude, slicing, copy and pasting, re setting tone timbres, and such become for lack of a better description light years ahead of setting desired transients. Of course both practices have their place.

I thought mikesupina was a newcomer but upon a quick look at previous posts has been using Studio One since 2015. So my error in thinking he was somewhat new to using Studio One. Nothing wrong in wanting some feature that another DAW exhibits, so as I also mentioned, a feature request should be posted so others can lend support. I'd gladly vote for somewhat better user defined transient detection. At some point we're left with a cow that already gives milk. Add Melodyne Studio and that cow 🐄 gives every dairy product and then some.

I do think the examples the OP gave are somewhat week in practice. No matter how one slices it, a waveform is still quite two dimensional and all the picking and poking to extrapolate transients does nothing unless one is multi tracking. Then, it's not even necessary to find a transient, as much as grab the bend tool and simply move any percussive hits with ease. Seriously. It's that easy even without Melodyne.

If the OP wants to post something convincing that doesn't get in the way of a weighty alternative to what's already easily available, I'm sure many will vote it up. 👍
Peace, out.

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by garybowling on Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:35 pm
Well, I'm a drummer and I've been doing multitrack drum editing for many years. Much of what you propose would be better.

However, you can select tracks individually (not grouped at this point) like kick and snare, analyze the tracks and adjust the slider to get close to what you want. Then go through the tracks removing/adding bend markers. If there is a kick and a snare that "flam," it's really easy to delete the marker on the track you don't want to use. That effectively does what you want and keeps only the one you like as the preference. It also gives you the ability to "prefer" one thing one time and something else another time.

When you get the bend markers on the tracks edited, then group those tracks with all the other drum tracks (if you have them in a folder it's easy to just click the quick group on the folder to make all of them in a group).

Then pull down the "guide" dropdown and select your tracks you want to be your guides, which would be the ones you analyzed and tweaked. Slice up the track (if that's what you like) and it slices all the tracks at the appropriate place. Quantize or whatever you like to do, fill and crossfade.

--------------------------

Now, having said all that.. That's no longer the way I edit my own drums. What I do is this.

I group all the tracks. Then I use the "cut" tool and cut every bar manually at the "1." It's easy to see visually what hits on "1" and cut all the tracks just at the transient that is on "1."

Then I quantize all those events (remember, they are full bar events that start at the 1) on the track to 1/1. So it moves every bar, all tracks, to start exactly on the "1," or moves them closer to "1" if I don't do a 100% quantize. Sometimes, if I like the feel, I may not actually quantize them, I may just manually move bars, tightening up the ones that are too far off.

Then I manually go through and look/listen at each bar and determine if anything else needs to move. Maybe it's only a few things here and there. Maybe I need to cut some places in a few bars and tweak them.

It depends on the style of music. If I did a session for a "dance" track, then maybe everything gets cut and moved to "perfect" time. If it's a "feel" song, maybe very little gets moved.

It's all about creating the right feel for the song, not necessarily correcting everything to the exact grid.

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by mikesupina on Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:36 pm
Lokeyfly wrote
shanabit wroteKeep in mind Lokeyfly that you need the more expensive versions of Melodyne to do that.

I think we are talking just what's built into StudioOne here.

I agree most want their new DAW to work exactly as the old and that is not realistic at all



Absolutely

As I mentioned "Granted, that isn't the core Studio One audio editor, but the integration of the two are top notch."

Pricing is pretty all over the place nowadays with subscriptions and add on's. and yes, Melodyne Editor as an upgrade to the supplied version is a chunk of change at about $200. Studio One Pro at Approx $350, yet Pro Tools prior to subscriptions was about $500. In any case, using Melodyne to any length where singling out and manipulating pitch, amplitude, slicing, copy and pasting, re setting tone timbres, and such become for lack of a better description light years ahead of setting desired transients. Of course both practices have their place.

I thought mikesupina was a newcomer but upon a quick look at previous posts has been using Studio One since 2015. So my error in thinking he was somewhat new to using Studio One. Nothing wrong in wanting some feature that another DAW exhibits, so as I also mentioned, a feature request should be posted so others can lend support. I'd gladly vote for somewhat better user defined transient detection. At some point we're left with a cow that already gives milk. Add Melodyne Studio and that cow 🐄 gives every dairy product and then some.

I do think the examples the OP gave are somewhat week in practice. No matter how one slices it, a waveform is still quite two dimensional and all the picking and poking to extrapolate transients does nothing unless one is multi tracking. Then, it's not even necessary to find a transient, as much as grab the bend tool and simply move any percussive hits with ease. Seriously. It's that easy even without Melodyne.

If the OP wants to post something convincing that doesn't get in the way of a weighty alternative to what's already easily available, I'm sure many will vote it up. 👍
Peace, out.


Thanks for the reply! I see you mention Melodyne as a stronger alternative. I wasn't aware that melodyne can phase lock multitrack drums together. To my knowledge, it actually doesn't, and I have never heard of that in all of my years of using melodyne. None the less, to say it's a stronger alternative when you don't understand the benefit of what I'm suggesting in the first place really just shows that you don't get it, respectfully. However, I should've also added in the original post that the vertical line I'm speaking of that the transient detection adds would go through ALL of the grouped tracks, not just one little yellow line on the snare transients, one little yellow line on the kick transients, etc, BUT one yellow line representing the kick transient through ALL of the grouped tracks. Much easier to make sense of visually. Scroll horizontally, something looks off, move it or delete it. You only have to keep track of one large vertical line per transient through all the tracks.

Broken down, if I have multitrack drums in Pro Tools, I select a whole large chunk of grouped multitrack drums, analyze it, adjust the transient detection slider; It then shows a vertical line for every potential transient through the whole group of drums (even though the line is only representing say the kick). Easy to see and figure out what belongs and what doesn't.

In Studio One, you analyze a track at a time to get the best results, but then you're dealing with all of the transients across say 5-7 different tracks that your eyes have to keep track of; a bunch of little yellow lines all over the place. At this point, Pro Tools does this all, in two steps. Studio One for best results, is doing this as many times as the tracks you want cut up. It's literally like doing beat detective 5-7 times per section as opposed to Pro Tools with one go, detecting all transients and double checking the detection once per chunk. Less steps; more accurate.

Furthermore, a "trigger pad" would be helpful where it places the slice before the detected transient according to how many milliseconds you specify. This way, you don't potentially slice a hi hat or ride that hits slightly earlier than the main transient. The alternative is select all drums after slicing them all, and peel back the audio by whatever amount one chooses. Why not just add a "trigger pad" and have it done for you at the moment of slicing? Once again, saving another step. Less thinking, faster workflow.

DAW's:
Studio One Professional 6.5.2
Pro Tools Studio 2023.12.1

Computer:
Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
OWC Aura Pro X2 1 TB
AMD FirePro D300 2 GB
Mac OS 12.7.3 Monterey

Interface:
Audient EVO 16 w/ two Audient SP8's

Monitor:
LG 32' LCD connected via HDMI
Samsung 27" LCD connected via HDMI to Thunderbolt adapter
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by Lokeyfly on Sat Sep 03, 2022 12:08 am
mikesupina wrote: "I see you mention Melodyne as a stronger alternative. I wasn't aware that melodyne can phase lock multitrack drums together. To my knowledge, it actually doesn't, and I have never heard of that in all of my years of using melodyne.Probably because the discussion and your post never went into A single thing about phase lock."


If you would like to keep the discussion about transient detection at hand fine. Phase locked, brings its own set of differentials.
The discussion was not about "phase lock".

My point was Melodyne Studio can do a better job of isolating waveform information on a number of levels. I did not say it was a stronger alternative. Different editing functions support different editing needs. I also stated mileage may vary. "MMV". Please don't put words in. My mouth. I welcomed an example. Yours (and mine) are an opinion.

Not percussive hits but as a reference, at 2:09 in standalone mode, you can see how Melodyne will allow control against the neighboring sounds of other tracks,. Additionally, the rest of the video shows all tracks analyzed at once, if necessary, separated, and also time adjusted.
https://youtu.be/e_j6W8lLZcM
Melodyne aside.
Granted, if one was aligning transients, Studio One while not color differentiating markers on multiple tracks in one take, as your example grouping a set of tracks as an overlay. S1 can perform a rather easy job of stacking tracks with their transients to be seen top down (stacked). That brings its own set of advantages, albeit sometimes missed peaks, still, that can be altered. I wouldn't say detection is random at all. Some misses? Yes. Though I haven't found it difficult to remove a bend marker, place a new bend marker, or jump to other markers. I've found S1 makes those adjustments very quick.

To be clear, and I also stated, I'd love to see an example where Pro Tools makes the grouping of transient detection actually easier. Layered transients, get jumbled quickly, and prioritizing transients indeed helps up to the point of not showing other likely necessary peaks. That was my point that Studio One can perform multiple transient editing in still a rather cohesive way. Pinpointing a flam? Sure, sometimes it's a hit, sometimes it's a miss. How does one fix that? It's certainly not grouping transient tracks for the visuals. It's editing the one track and listening.

I get the preference of colored markers. All good! I'd even vote for it, though multiple track detection is not always favorable, I'd use it at times.

Still, I'll take editing tracks transients stacked over group tracks layered, any day. Both ways still hit a visual wall, though Pro Toos does a rather nice job of differentiating tracks quite nicely to its credit. As a drummer, and other instrumentalist, when heavy workflow calls for it. I prefer a stacked and easily accessible way of moving what you described. I'll say it again. Others mileage may vary.

Does miltitack editing in Stuio One "need an overhaul"? I dont believe so. In no way does Studio One match the audio editing benefits of Pro Tools. With ARA2 technology Studio One already has in place, it could be better, and I'd be for several audio editing improvements outide of this one. FR it. I'll vote for it.

As for transients marked at the peak, it definately hinders the ability to cut into the waveform if edited. I'd like to see an option there to have it at peak, or leading edge (at zero point). All of my slices I check first to help that along. There's an FR to vote on that, which many have. IMO, it should be an option.

S1-6.2.1, HP Omen 17" i7 10th Gen, 32 GB,512 GB TLC M.2 (SSD),1 TB SSD. Win10 Pro, Audient iD14 MkII, Roland JV90, NI S49 MkII, Atom SQ, FP 8, Roland GR-50 & Octapad. MOTU MIDI Express XT. HR824, Yamaha HS-7, NS-1000M, Yamaha Promix 01, Rane HC-6, etc.

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by craigallen2 on Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:45 am
Have you taken a look at this tutorial? (Marcus Huyskens)

https://youtu.be/27XfZ_muzLc
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by mikesupina on Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:29 am
Lokeyfly wrote
mikesupina wrote: "I see you mention Melodyne as a stronger alternative. I wasn't aware that melodyne can phase lock multitrack drums together. To my knowledge, it actually doesn't, and I have never heard of that in all of my years of using melodyne.Probably because the discussion and your post never went into A single thing about phase lock."


If you would like to keep the discussion about transient detection at hand fine. Phase locked, brings its own set of differentials.
The discussion was not about "phase lock".

My point was Melodyne Studio can do a better job of isolating waveform information on a number of levels. I did not say it was a stronger alternative. Different editing functions support different editing needs. I also stated mileage may vary. "MMV". Please don't put words in. My mouth. I welcomed an example. Yours (and mine) are an opinion.

Not percussive hits but as a reference, at 2:09 in standalone mode, you can see how Melodyne will allow control against the neighboring sounds of other tracks,. Additionally, the rest of the video shows all tracks analyzed at once, if necessary, separated, and also time adjusted.
https://youtu.be/e_j6W8lLZcM
Melodyne aside.
Granted, if one was aligning transients, Studio One while not color differentiating markers on multiple tracks in one take, as your example grouping a set of tracks as an overlay. S1 can perform a rather easy job of stacking tracks with their transients to be seen top down (stacked). That brings its own set of advantages, albeit sometimes missed peaks, still, that can be altered. I wouldn't say detection is random at all. Some misses? Yes. Though I haven't found it difficult to remove a bend marker, place a new bend marker, or jump to other markers. I've found S1 makes those adjustments very quick.

To be clear, and I also stated, I'd love to see an example where Pro Tools makes the grouping of transient detection actually easier. Layered transients, get jumbled quickly, and prioritizing transients indeed helps up to the point of not showing other likely necessary peaks. That was my point that Studio One can perform multiple transient editing in still a rather cohesive way. Pinpointing a flam? Sure, sometimes it's a hit, sometimes it's a miss. How does one fix that? It's certainly not grouping transient tracks for the visuals. It's editing the one track and listening.

I get the preference of colored markers. All good! I'd even vote for it, though multiple track detection is not always favorable, I'd use it at times.

Still, I'll take editing tracks transients stacked over group tracks layered, any day. Both ways still hit a visual wall, though Pro Toos does a rather nice job of differentiating tracks quite nicely to its credit. As a drummer, and other instrumentalist, when heavy workflow calls for it. I prefer a stacked and easily accessible way of moving what you described. I'll say it again. Others mileage may vary.

Does miltitack editing in Stuio One "need an overhaul"? I dont believe so. In no way does Studio One match the audio editing benefits of Pro Tools. With ARA2 technology Studio One already has in place, it could be better, and I'd be for several audio editing improvements outide of this one. FR it. I'll vote for it.

As for transients marked at the peak, it definately hinders the ability to cut into the waveform if edited. I'd like to see an option there to have it at peak, or leading edge (at zero point). All of my slices I check first to help that along. There's an FR to vote on that, which many have. IMO, it should be an option.


In all fairness, the post was about multitrack drum editing, which implies being phase locked :) and Melodyne cannot do what I'm asking for. :)

I think you may be misunderstanding the "grouping of transients". This is simply about refining the detection and then making it visually easier for the purpose of making sure you have the right markers in place. Pro Tools does this as a group (multitrack drum editing; phase locked etc) in the sense that when you analyze the grouped drum tracks, it picks the best candidate for the transients and it places a single bright vertical line over all of the selected group. It rarely if ever will put 3 different vertical lines where a kick, snare, and floor tom are all playing at the same time, but rather say "hey, I'm supposed to slice at the kick hit" and place the cutting line there. In Studio One, you analyze a kick, a bunch of markers come up ONLY on the kick channel. You analyze a snare, a bunch of markers come up ONLY on the snare, etc.

What I am implying and suggesting is have the transient detection seek out the best candidate in a given section, and just extend the slicing line vertically throughout the whole group of tracks. It's a lot easier to see one vertical line through all of the grouped tracks and what close mic it belongs to when scrolling through to make sure they are all in the right place, as opposed to keeping an eye on say four different close mics where their transient markers are all in different places vertically AND horizontally.

I was drum editing again in Studio One today; it's more steps to do the same thing you would do in Pro Tools in less steps.

Furthermore, the quantzing, autofill, auto crossfades etc. need an overhaul too; they only work properly (for the most part) when you do all of those actions all at once. Otherwise, if you do ONLY the slicing option because you need to change the grid for a specific drum roll from straight 1/8th notes to triples, Studio One gets glitchy when you try to do these tasks separately. Another advantage Pro Tools has for drum editing; slice big chunks, and quantize the chunks according to the time signature of what was played. In Studio One, it's all or nothing for the best results which don't always fit the time signature.

Look at the attached photos. One of them is easier to make sense of (Pro Tools: especially when really zoomed in and scrolling). I'm implying refine the detection, the actions, and make it visually easier to work with.

Attachments
Screen Shot 2022-09-05 at 2.55.29 AM.png
Screen Shot 2022-09-05 at 2.51.53 AM.png

DAW's:
Studio One Professional 6.5.2
Pro Tools Studio 2023.12.1

Computer:
Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
OWC Aura Pro X2 1 TB
AMD FirePro D300 2 GB
Mac OS 12.7.3 Monterey

Interface:
Audient EVO 16 w/ two Audient SP8's

Monitor:
LG 32' LCD connected via HDMI
Samsung 27" LCD connected via HDMI to Thunderbolt adapter
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by mikesupina on Mon Sep 05, 2022 1:36 am
craigallen2 wroteHave you taken a look at this tutorial? (Marcus Huyskens)

https://youtu.be/27XfZ_muzLc


I have seen his drum editing videos, and they are very helpful for sure! I appreciate you sending this. I do still believe the whole of it needs refinement. :)

Being able to do actions such as slicing, quantizing, auto fill and auto crossfade at independent times with the same accuracy (it's more prone to bugs unless you do all of those actions at once, which isn't always ideal for grid reasons), a built in trigger pad (for making the slice before the detected transient according to how many milliseconds you set it), and better visuals with the transient/slicing lines (more like crosshairs) I believe would be very helpful and bring more efficiency. :)

DAW's:
Studio One Professional 6.5.2
Pro Tools Studio 2023.12.1

Computer:
Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1866 MHz DDR3
OWC Aura Pro X2 1 TB
AMD FirePro D300 2 GB
Mac OS 12.7.3 Monterey

Interface:
Audient EVO 16 w/ two Audient SP8's

Monitor:
LG 32' LCD connected via HDMI
Samsung 27" LCD connected via HDMI to Thunderbolt adapter
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by Lokeyfly on Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:22 am
@ mikesupina, Thanks for sending the images. I've I used ProTools, actually from its inception. There's definately some better stability on how PT picks bend markers in place and its consistency. How it works in relation to how I work has no benefit, but it would be silly if I were to say Studio One will do this sort of editing more reliably. First, I don't put any stock in bend markers, and certainly not in an effort to quantize. PT's quantization is at best ok. As an example, Cubase and Logic are incredibly way superior. I avoid most quantizing with my own music, but use it with clients. I've found Cubase' quantize selections especially Iterative or with percentages just more logical and have expected results . If I have a major complaint about Studio One, it's not its transient detection or lack of (lets not even go to phase lock discussion, please). Studio One has to have the worst quantize layout I've ever seen in a DAW, and that's back to the 80's. No joke.

So my using Studio One for transient detection works, but it's probably skewed in that the last thing I'm going for is to then quantize afterwords. If it's move, delete, or add bend markers, Studio One is tidy enough, and result wise, pretty fast. Though others as in your case want to see improvements there. All good.

As mentioned, I think you should feature request your points (add an actual link). It sounds worthy enough for sure. I see you included the point in the "when will version 6 drop" post. That's good, but I should warn you, posting a suggestion in a post, and not FR'ing it won't do anything except get it off your chest. FR it, and it will gain much more traction even without a high vote count. It's at least then visible.

Cheers, and thanks again for the commitment and discussion. I don't see "overhaul" in view, but I'd be all for detection improvement and lord knows better quantizing which seriously could be overhauled IMO.

S1-6.2.1, HP Omen 17" i7 10th Gen, 32 GB,512 GB TLC M.2 (SSD),1 TB SSD. Win10 Pro, Audient iD14 MkII, Roland JV90, NI S49 MkII, Atom SQ, FP 8, Roland GR-50 & Octapad. MOTU MIDI Express XT. HR824, Yamaha HS-7, NS-1000M, Yamaha Promix 01, Rane HC-6, etc.

New song "Our Time"
https://youtu.be/BqOZ4-0iY1w?si=_uwmgRBv3N4VwJlq

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by MisterE on Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:58 am
Can I sneak in a question that's not entirely unrelated?

Does anyone use any of the tools mentioned to make strummed guitars more dead solid perfect? Or is that an exercise in futility? I ask because I have good timing for a normal human being, while the studio cats I play with are abnormal human beings with perfect timing that exaggerates my lack of the same.

If I described the lengths I've gone to to accomplish this manually, I'd be put in a straight jacket.

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