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I think that I understand recording levels and mixing levels pretty well. Never clip in digital, keep your average levels at around -18dbfs and peaks at around -6dbfs and don't try to win the loudness wars until you get to mastering where you flirt with 0dbfs. The only thing I am still struggling with is the initial levels when I first record a vocal onto the initial track. I usually end up with my Audient ID14 input gain pot at about 3 oclock for my MD421 dynamic mic and double check that my recording levels are in the range i stated above on the ID14 led graph and with the ID software . I also see that I have a pretty decent level in the little vertical graph at the beginning of the track. After I record the vocal there is almost no spectrum graph activity in the track and I have to right click "increase volume" about 4 times to get the gain staging of the track at target levels in the track to start mixing. What am I missing?

Thanks,

George

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by Jemusic on Sun Sep 19, 2021 10:23 pm
Still sounds like you are not getting enough Mic gain on the signal. Don't use the meter on the Audient necessarily to tell you what is going on.

Firstly open your mixer and click on INPUTS. Here you see the input channels before they even reach the track for recording. Put a VU meter and set it for -18 dB FS = 0 dB VU. (the free Presonus VU meter will suffice nicely) Or insert a Presonus level meter there and set it for either -14 or -20. For vocals a -14 setting will work fine.

The dynamic mic is a lower level for starters compared to a condenser mic. It's not an issue, its just that you might need to crank the gain up. Forget where the input level setting is on the Audient. It is not important. Vocalist should be close to the mic (1 foot or less) Adjust the input gain to get the desired 0dB VU reading.

If you want to use all the automatic record level stuff that the Audient does, that is fine also. (It does work well) Let the Audient control the gain as required. With the mixer open click on the little spanner to the left. Make sure Input controls is checked. Now you can add some gain right at the top of the inout channel with the input gain trim pots in order to get that VU hitting the right mark.

The preamps in the Audient are quiet. Do not be afraid to add gain when its needed. if you don't want to go above 3 o'clock on the Audient then add the extra gain within Studio One on the input channel. Thats what the input gain trim controls are for.

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by georgegidzinski on Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:08 pm
What a great response, thank you. I have everything up and running as you suggested. When I am at -18dbfs avg and -6dbfs peaks on the S1 input meters, my audient ID app shows everything redlined so that's why I have been recording at such a low level. I wonder why those two don't track/agree each other? I thought 0dbfs was 0dbfs?

I cant figure out the last bit about Audient automating the gain. I found the spanner in the S1 mixer and "Show Audio Device Controls" is grayed out but checked. I cant find any Audient device control in that view however. Any suggestions?


George

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by Jemusic on Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:03 am
The Audient auto gain feature might not be in the bigger model you have. It is in some smaller models for sure. I just was not sure that is all.

I would adjust things on the Audient meter so they are not clipping in case. I would then add the appropriate gain at the input channel trim control up above to get the right reading on the meter inserted in the Studio One input channel. That is telling the truth about what is actually coming into Studio One.

Watch this video as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loz5BJVpBII&t=183s

Make sure the level leaving the interface to the computer is correct. You can open the mixer software while you are receiving a Mic input signal. Keep an eye on the Mic 1, Mic 2 input meters there to ensure levels are healthy and not clipping.

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by SwitchBack on Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:33 am
Don’t get hung up on the -18dB. Especially with condenser mics the difference between the average level and the true peaks can be much more than the 12dB you’re sort of counting on, and then in other cases (e.g. inputs with an outboard compressor/limiter) it can be less than that. So be flexible in how you dial in your preamps per track.

Once the signal is past the ADC and inside the DAW it’s another story. Floating point processing removes the risk of clipping and it makes digital gain/attenuation practically noise-free. So with that in mind you can set the average track levels inside your DAW to whatever you prefer or need in your mix.

Personally I prefer to have every track equally loud pre-fader, maintaining that level with every insert introduced on the track. The faders then determine which tracks get front seat in the mix and which tracks sit in the back. With only a few tracks in the mix ‘equally loud’ can be -12dB or so, and with higher track counts it must be lower. But that’s me :)
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by georgegidzinski on Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:06 am
I’m not attached to a -18dbfs recording level so let’s just say that I’m trying to record vocal tracks that don’t clip and have some headroom for mixing and plug-ins but are loud enough to initially sit in the mix with all track mixing faders at the default position. The bigger issue now is that I followed the initial advice here and put some meters on my input channels in the S1 mixer and turned my Audient hardware gain knob until my average levels were in the -teens and I had some headroom from clipping. That straightened out my vocal recorded track volume and the “spectrum” graph in my vocal track is now almost filling out the vertical range like my instruments. Then back in the ID app my levels are all clipping. I thought dbfs was dbfs, shouldn’t any meter in dbfs scale read the same?


George

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by Vocalpoint on Mon Sep 20, 2021 11:14 am
georgegidzinski wroteI’m not attached to a -18dbfs recording level so let’s just say that I’m trying to record vocal tracks that don’t clip and have some headroom for mixing and plug-ins but are loud enough to initially sit in the mix with all track mixing faders at the default position. The bigger issue now is that I followed the initial advice here and put some meters on my input channels in the S1 mixer and turned my Audient hardware gain knob until my average levels were in the -teens and I had some headroom from clipping. That straightened out my vocal recorded track volume and the “spectrum” graph in my vocal track is now almost filling out the vertical range like my instruments. Then back in the ID app my levels are all clipping. I thought dbfs was dbfs, shouldn’t any meter in dbfs scale read the same?

George


I think the MD421 might need a preamp so you don't need to crank the ID14 so high. This mic needs tons of gain (and of course more noise) to get it to the proper level.

It may also be that the ID14 is small affordable consumer level interface and you get what you get.

VP

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by georgegidzinski on Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:14 pm
[/quote]

I think the MD421 might need a preamp so you don't need to crank the ID14 so high. This mic needs tons of gain (and of course more noise) to get it to the proper level.

It may also be that the ID14 is small affordable consumer level interface and you get what you get.

VP[/quote]

I started off successfully recording with an SM58 through a presonus iTwo The iTwo has less total mic preamp gain (52db) than the ID14 (58db) and that original SM 58 has less sensitivity (output) at -55dbV than the MD421 at -54dbV so with both of those changes I can get more signal level into S1 than before. I am just trying to understand why I am clipping in the ID mix app for the ID14 and have good input gain levels with no clipping as indicated by the S1 input meters which are the next measurement in the chain with no processing in between. The subject of if its a good idea to use a -58db preamp for a -54 db mic based on noise, distortion, etc is a different subject and a valid one but I have enough juice to peg any of these meters to clipping and for now I am just trying to understand measuring gain levels at the input stages.

George

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by SwitchBack on Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:13 pm
georgegidzinski wroteI’m not attached to a -18dbfs recording level so let’s just say that I’m trying to record vocal tracks that don’t clip and have some headroom for mixing and plug-ins but are loud enough to initially sit in the mix with all track mixing faders at the default position. The bigger issue now is that I followed the initial advice here and put some meters on my input channels in the S1 mixer and turned my Audient hardware gain knob until my average levels were in the -teens and I had some headroom from clipping. That straightened out my vocal recorded track volume and the “spectrum” graph in my vocal track is now almost filling out the vertical range like my instruments. Then back in the ID app my levels are all clipping. I thought dbfs was dbfs, shouldn’t any meter in dbfs scale read the same?
George
Gain staging is about getting the levels per stage right. You’ve built tube amps so you know all about saturation and soft clipping and that analog clipping can even be desirable sometimes. Regarding the mic and the (analog part of the) preamp all that matters is that it sounds right to you (with as little noise as possible).

The next stage is the A/D converter. Here it is absolutely critical that the converter is never pushed to the maximum because clipping an A/D converter sounds crap. So don’t do that. But in most interfaces the preamp is tied straight to the converter, with only one knob (the gain knob) to control the level for both. Depending on the interface design analog clipping may happen before (‘warm’ preamp) or after (‘clean’ preamp) the digital clipping level and in either case digital clipping must always be avoided.

The last stage is the input/track/clip gain applied inside your DAW. this digital gain is completely independent from what happened up to and including the A/D converter. It allows you to adjust the track level to any level you prefer to work with and (in a floating point environment) it will never clip the signal.

So regarding your input levels you have two controls to play with:
- preamp gain on your interface to get a good sound without clipping the converter
- digital input/track/clip gain in your DAW to adjust converter output level to preferred track working level.

As for the track working level: Every doubling of the track count (assuming equal loudness and ‘on’ at the same time) will raise the combined level by 3-6dB. Together with your target output level that should give an indication of where the track working levels should be. You’ll find that with high track counts, especially in mixes where you have multiple instances of and instrument or voice, that -18dB may not be low enough to keep the track faders round about 0dB. Just saying.
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by georgegidzinski on Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:27 pm
It sounds like what you’re suggesting is that at least some of the level meters in the ID mixer app for my ID 14 might be the analog levels before the A/D converter? That would make sense because -18 DBFS Average levels in the digital domain probably relate to analog VU meters bouncing around zero DB. I’ll play around with that some more when I’m in front of my computer tonight.

I think I may further understand now that the LED levels on the ID 14 Hardware may actually be the send levels back from the DAW?

Thanks.


George

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by SwitchBack on Mon Sep 20, 2021 1:46 pm
georgegidzinski wroteI think I may further understand now that the LED levels on the ID 14 Hardware may actually be the send levels back from the DAW?
Yeah, it looks like the interface is lacking hardware input metering or clip lights. You may have to use the interface’s control software for that.
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by georgegidzinski on Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:29 pm
I have confirmed that the H/W LED's on the ID14 AI are in fact the DAW send levels so they do not help with setting input gain levels. In addition it appears that the ID mix software display is showing the analog gain levels before the A/D converters where signals averaging around 0dbu send to the DAW at around -12dbfs. My mistake all along was thinking that the ID14 mix software display was showing me digital levels into the DAW and I was keeping the peaks under around -6db.

This then brings us to the previous poster who commented about the sensitivity of my dynamic mics vs the gain of the ID14 preamp stage. They work but the ID14 is almost maxed out and that begs the question of if another outboard gain stage like a cloud lifter CL-1 would improve the sound at all by keeping the ID14 pre amps off the rails. OR, can I get just as good a recording by starting the vocal channel in the DAW with a gain stage after backing off the ID14 analog gain some? I was essentially doing this after the track was recorded in the mixer channel but I suppose one could put a gain plugin in the input and be getting the proper net gain recorded onto the track?

George

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by SwitchBack on Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:27 pm
The ID14 app can give you 10dB extra, if you need it.
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by Jemusic on Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:53 pm
Those Mic input levels on the mixer software are definitely pre any A/D conversion. The 10 db switch should be used for quieter sources. Engage this especially with a quieter microphone.

While the vocalist is performing those input levels in the ID software should not be clipping. With the +10 db gain switches activated you should be able to back off the gain in the ID14.

Those input faders too by the way feed the Mic signals direct to the outputs of the interface for zero latency monitoring. You may or may not always them faded up depending on your need.

To get the level right in the Studio One Input channel you can still fine tune the gain at the top of the input channel with the trim controls as well.

The level being recorded to a track does not have to be super high either. I find if the VU is set right there on the input channel to say -14 dB FS = 0 dB VU then you will get a healthy level on your tracks but not too loud either. Still with plenty of headroom.

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by georgegidzinski on Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:12 pm
SwitchBack wroteThe ID14 app can give you 10dB extra, if you need it.



Is that boost Before or after the A/D Converters?

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by georgegidzinski on Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:23 pm
Jemusic wroteThose Mic input levels on the mixer software are definitely pre any A/D conversion. The 10 db switch should be used for quieter sources. Engage this especially with a quieter microphone.

While the vocalist is performing those input levels in the ID software should not be clipping. With the +10 db gain switches activated you should be able to back off the gain in the ID14.

Those input faders too by the way feed the Mic signals direct to the outputs of the interface for zero latency monitoring. You may or may not always them faded up depending on your need.

To get the level right in the Studio One Input channel you can still fine tune the gain at the top of the input channel with the trim controls as well.

The level being recorded to a track does not have to be super high either. I find if the VU is set right there on the input channel to say -14 dB FS = 0 dB VU then you will get a healthy level on your tracks but not too loud either. Still with plenty of headroom.


I thought I understood but now I don’t again. If the mic faders in the ID mix software are the analog into the converters and Dbu scale then there should be about 18 bd of headroom to 0dbfs from 0dbu and levels riding around 0 on those meters should be giving me -18dbfs ish levels in the input of the DAW which they are for me now. When you say no clipping in the ID software do you mean not above 0 on those meters or not above +20db or so there? To an earlier point, how else would you add analog color?


George

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by Jemusic on Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:46 pm
The 10 db gain is a digital gain boost so it must be after the A/D converters.

In the software the input meters and the faders are two different things. Its the meters you are really interested in. In the video he says with the input signal coming in you should be aiming for around -12 db (peak) Remember this is only peak level not Rms levels so what they are saying here is they are making sure you are well clear of 0 dB FS to avoid any clipping.

The manual says those meters are reading dB FS which means that 0 dB on the meter is 0 dB FS which is clipping. I guess the 6 dB above that is only for showing very clipped sources.

The faders have noting to do with sending levels into your DAW. They are for zero latency monitoring of your input sources.

Don't sweat too much what is happening in the ID14 software. But, use the 10 dB boost for sure and just keep an eye on that meter to ensure you are not clipping. Put a VU meter showing rms on the input channel in Studio One instead and aim for a 0dB VU reading when the vocalist is performing normally. (that meter can be calibrated fo 0 dB = -14 dB) The Presonus Level meter put into K System -14 will do that perfectly. Fine tune the input trim controls for further digital gain adjustment. You will find when you get that meter reading correctly, the ID14 input meter will also be fine and not clipping.

The manual actually states rely on your DAW metering for better accuracy.

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by georgegidzinski on Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:20 pm
I rewatched that video and your right they call it a digital boost but when I hit the boost button it increases the meter readings in the ID mix app so those meters must be after the A/D converters. And yes I see that they suggest a -12db recording level so those meters must be dbfs scale. If that's true then I am back to not understanding why those meters disagree with the input meters in my DAW.


George

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by Jemusic on Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:48 pm
Yes you are right about this ID14 software meters being after the boost switch.

The Studio One input meters show peak and rms. The rms in the case of the Studio One input meters is the little red line that sits down below. The peak is shown by the very top of the bar graph.

In the ID14 software meters, the little red line is actually showing peak (the opposite to what the Studio One meters are showing you) This might have something to do with it.

I have always been a fan of rms levels first then peak so putting the Level Meter on the insert of the Studio One input channel and setting it to K-14 and aiming for a 0dB VU reading will get you right in the ball park.

If the ID14 meters are clipping then back off the ID14 gain a little and add some back via the trum pots at the top of the Studio One input channel. Its just a balancing act really getting everything to be happy and read correctly.

What you should be comparing between the two meters is the little red line in the ID14 software meter should match the top of the bar graph display in the Studio One input channel. I think you will find they do match or are very close.

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by georgegidzinski on Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:54 pm
I have a ticket open with Audient so maybe they can get this straightened out but tonight i noticed that like before, the ID 14 level meters display levels that are different from the S1 input level meters and as you pointed out, the ID mix level meters go above 0db to +6db. The new thing I learned tonight is that as the signal level goes up in the ID mix meters, the first red bar does not show up until around +4db and that's the exact moment that the S1 input meters show clipping at 0dbfs.

George

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