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Between applications and interfaces meters can show different dB levels for many reasons. Sine waves are a way to make some sense out of it. Set up a test where you send a 1kHz sine wave from the tone generator in S1 to the ID14 output (and nothing else), patch that sine wave output signal back into one of the ID14 mic inputs and return that input to a muted track in S1. Then slowly rise the gain on the ID14 input to find the interface’s clipping point. Then in S1 check the track’s input level to see if at least the (near) clipping levels match.
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by Jemusic on Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:33 am
Test signals are a better way to go.

Doing tests at clipping level is one test only. Its also important to do some level tests at nominal levels.

Set the test tone generator for a sine wave (400 Hz) at -14 output level in Studio One. Route it to a spare output on your interface. (output 3/4) Connect that (3) to Mic one input.

Insert the Level meter into the Studio One input channel and set for K System K14. Remove the +10 dB gain in the Audient if its set. Make sure the trim pots in the input channel are also set for gain change.

Bring the level of the tone generator up with the Mic 1 input gain to achieve a 0dB VU reading on the input Level meter. Now observe what the Audient software Mic 1 meter is showing you. I bet its also at -14 as well.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by SwitchBack on Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:45 am
Wouldn't put my house on it ;)

PS. Also insert the spectrum analyser into the S1 input. That way you can make sure that the sine wave isn't distorting.
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by georgegidzinski on Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:59 am
I did my level tests humming a tone into a microphone with pretty level meters, watching them simultaneously repeating the test a few times to confirm but I’ll go the next step and use a sign wave. Where are the trim pots on the S1 input channels, I can’t find them? I have 3.5.6.

Thanks,

George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 Pro 64, Gigabyte H310M S2P/i7 9700K 3.6Ghz 6C/32G ram/Crucial 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue/Asus 32" mon, Audient ID14, Yam HS5/JBL 305P MkII/Kali LP6, Easy D 2, Addictive D 2, Slate Trigger 2, Fab Filter, Softube, Soundtoys, Waves, Slate PI's, Melodyne, Nektar GX49, Yamaha P71, WA73, WA2A, 1176 Bluey, Distressor, DBX160, Sansamp RBI, Palmer PI03, E drum kit based on Rol/Yam/acoustic conv, Strats/Tele/LP, Fender Mustang/Schecter basses, Martin DM,home built tube amps, WA47jr, C414xls, MD421, KM184, ATM450, M160 & just enough confidence to be dangerous
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by Vocalpoint on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:37 am
georgegidzinski wroteWhere are the trim pots on the S1 input channels, I can’t find them? I have 3.5.6.Thanks, George


Cannot remember if v3 had trims. I think that came in with v4?

Cheers!

VP

DAW: Studio One Pro 6.5.1.96553 | Host OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2 | Motherboard: ASUS PRIME z790-A | CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-13600K | RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 64GB | Graphics: Intel UHD 770 (HDMI) | Audio Interface: RME UCX II (v1.246) | OS Drive : Samsung 990 PRO (1TB) | Media Drive: Samsung 970 EVO Plus (500GB) | Libraries: Samsung 970 EVO+ (2TB) | Samples : Seagate FireCuda (2TB) | Monitoring: Presonus Monitor Station v2 + Presonus Eris 5 | MIDI Control: Native Instruments Komplete S61 & Presonus ATOM
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by SwitchBack on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:40 am
3.5 is a bit long in the teeth. Still, depending on if you selected the track or an event on the track it should be available from the inspector. Maybe scroll a bit?
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by georgegidzinski on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:41 am
Vocalpoint wrote
georgegidzinski wroteWhere are the trim pots on the S1 input channels, I can’t find them? I have 3.5.6.Thanks, George


Cannot remember if v3 had trims. I think that came in with v4?

Cheers!

VP


That explains it. I will keep my trim plugin insert on my inputs then which works good. I still don't understand the level mismatch yet but I am learning a lot on this thread


George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 Pro 64, Gigabyte H310M S2P/i7 9700K 3.6Ghz 6C/32G ram/Crucial 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue/Asus 32" mon, Audient ID14, Yam HS5/JBL 305P MkII/Kali LP6, Easy D 2, Addictive D 2, Slate Trigger 2, Fab Filter, Softube, Soundtoys, Waves, Slate PI's, Melodyne, Nektar GX49, Yamaha P71, WA73, WA2A, 1176 Bluey, Distressor, DBX160, Sansamp RBI, Palmer PI03, E drum kit based on Rol/Yam/acoustic conv, Strats/Tele/LP, Fender Mustang/Schecter basses, Martin DM,home built tube amps, WA47jr, C414xls, MD421, KM184, ATM450, M160 & just enough confidence to be dangerous
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by Vocalpoint on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:51 am
georgegidzinski wroteThat explains it. I will keep my trim plugin insert on my inputs then which works good. I still don't understand the level mismatch yet but I am learning a lot on this thread


I believe this is simply an analog to digital mismatch that you are seeing.

I remember having the same fun and games when I was gain staging my Mackie mixer years ago - I finally clued into the Level Set controls on my mixer - which I then used to dial in a 1khz Sine wave to line up all the channels.

Once the Mackie (analog) "level set" meter indicators were all reading exactly 0 dbFS - the Studio One channel inputs were all magically at -18dbFS and that's the sweet spot.

I remember wasting all kinds of time trying to eyeball it into shape - but it took that sine wave to really get things set correctly.

Now everything I do (that involves anything analog) like guitars, bass, keys etc - drops into S1 at pretty much a perfect level. Most of my stuff mixes itself.

Understand that your interface does not have as much ability to level set as this mixer does but you get the idea. You have to run a tone into that box and square things up like that - instead of trying to eyeball it with a real world signal like talking into a mic etc.

Continued success.

Cheers!

VP

DAW: Studio One Pro 6.5.1.96553 | Host OS: Windows 10 Pro 22H2 | Motherboard: ASUS PRIME z790-A | CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-13600K | RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 64GB | Graphics: Intel UHD 770 (HDMI) | Audio Interface: RME UCX II (v1.246) | OS Drive : Samsung 990 PRO (1TB) | Media Drive: Samsung 970 EVO Plus (500GB) | Libraries: Samsung 970 EVO+ (2TB) | Samples : Seagate FireCuda (2TB) | Monitoring: Presonus Monitor Station v2 + Presonus Eris 5 | MIDI Control: Native Instruments Komplete S61 & Presonus ATOM
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by georgegidzinski on Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:01 pm
SwitchBack wrote3.5 is a bit long in the teeth. Still, depending on if you selected the track or an event on the track it should be available from the inspector. Maybe scroll a bit?


No doubt my 3.5.6 install has some years on it but I never upgrade unless there are new features I need or it just stops working, especially if everything is stable. Ran Windows XP for 12 years because it was the best MS OS since W3.1 and the next few sucked. Been programming since 1969, building since the 90's and I have made too many visits to the forums with :I just upgraded and ---- stopped working" issues, especially with video editing. I keep my IOS devices on their original IOS for years especially since upgrades would cripple legacy devices. This one has gotten better since a class action lawsuit brought Apple in line to stop using the upgrade process as an accelerated obsolescence mechanism. Oh well enough old guy ranting , I digress. Back to 1Khz sine waves.

Thanks for every one's help so far.


George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 Pro 64, Gigabyte H310M S2P/i7 9700K 3.6Ghz 6C/32G ram/Crucial 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue/Asus 32" mon, Audient ID14, Yam HS5/JBL 305P MkII/Kali LP6, Easy D 2, Addictive D 2, Slate Trigger 2, Fab Filter, Softube, Soundtoys, Waves, Slate PI's, Melodyne, Nektar GX49, Yamaha P71, WA73, WA2A, 1176 Bluey, Distressor, DBX160, Sansamp RBI, Palmer PI03, E drum kit based on Rol/Yam/acoustic conv, Strats/Tele/LP, Fender Mustang/Schecter basses, Martin DM,home built tube amps, WA47jr, C414xls, MD421, KM184, ATM450, M160 & just enough confidence to be dangerous
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by Jemusic on Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:31 pm
I find a handy thing to have is a CD with some sine wave tones on it. 400 Hz and say 1kHz etc for say 10 mins each. At various levels too. It does require you having the ability to burn a CD etc.. Then you can use this is a total independent external source for doing things like this where you can easily hook up either one or both outputs from either a portable or rack CD player to your interface etc. Its also good for calibrating multiple mixers in your studio. If you have say two or three mixers feeding a summing mixer then you need to calibrate everything properly.

If you have got a spare computer or iPad, iPhone etc you can also go to YouTube and search for sine wave tones. There are a few there as test signal sources. Handy also for doing alignment and calibration stuff.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by georgegidzinski on Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:03 pm
The mystery has been solved. It turns out that 0dbfs is 0dbfs and -18dbfs is-18dbfs everywhere. Also, the ID Mix meter levels are after the converters in dbfs scale as the signal leaves the interface. The 10db boost is after the converters as a digital boost and registers as such in the meters of the ID Mix app.

The mistake I made is that the vertical db scale on the ID mix software inputs/sliders are not input channel signal levels. The signal level value is indicated in small digital numbers under the led graph which I did not notice until now. The led vertical bar graph is calibrated so that the green bars are -inf to -18dbfs, the yellow leds are -18dbfs to 0dbfs, and the first red led is 0dbfs and therefore digital clipping. The leds on the ID14 are not analog or digital input channel levels but rather daw return channel levels. SO, there is no measure of analog input levels in any scale and the ID mix software shows digital output values in dbfs scale but not to the scale marked to the left of the vertical leds and the slider.

Oh and a sine wave input gives the exact same result as my calibrated humming does. LOL.


George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 Pro 64, Gigabyte H310M S2P/i7 9700K 3.6Ghz 6C/32G ram/Crucial 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue/Asus 32" mon, Audient ID14, Yam HS5/JBL 305P MkII/Kali LP6, Easy D 2, Addictive D 2, Slate Trigger 2, Fab Filter, Softube, Soundtoys, Waves, Slate PI's, Melodyne, Nektar GX49, Yamaha P71, WA73, WA2A, 1176 Bluey, Distressor, DBX160, Sansamp RBI, Palmer PI03, E drum kit based on Rol/Yam/acoustic conv, Strats/Tele/LP, Fender Mustang/Schecter basses, Martin DM,home built tube amps, WA47jr, C414xls, MD421, KM184, ATM450, M160 & just enough confidence to be dangerous
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by georgegidzinski on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:01 pm
I see now that the reason I got confused is because I am used to the db scale in S1 switching between fader value and channel gain level depending on if you are in mixing mode or record mode and in ID Mix that printed vertical scale only applies to the fader/mix function.


George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 Pro 64, Gigabyte H310M S2P/i7 9700K 3.6Ghz 6C/32G ram/Crucial 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue/Asus 32" mon, Audient ID14, Yam HS5/JBL 305P MkII/Kali LP6, Easy D 2, Addictive D 2, Slate Trigger 2, Fab Filter, Softube, Soundtoys, Waves, Slate PI's, Melodyne, Nektar GX49, Yamaha P71, WA73, WA2A, 1176 Bluey, Distressor, DBX160, Sansamp RBI, Palmer PI03, E drum kit based on Rol/Yam/acoustic conv, Strats/Tele/LP, Fender Mustang/Schecter basses, Martin DM,home built tube amps, WA47jr, C414xls, MD421, KM184, ATM450, M160 & just enough confidence to be dangerous
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by Jemusic on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:33 pm
Which totally reinforces the idea of inserting a Level meter on the insert of the Input Channel in Studio One. You can set it to peak/rms or the K14/K20 setting. Its really the only thing that is going to give you an accurate representation of incoming recording levels to Studio One.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by georgegidzinski on Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:38 pm
I understand and the level meters on the inputs in S1 is a good suggestion but I was not going to be satisfied until I understood the metering at each stage. Now that I understand the metering and scales everywhere its all good. Thanks for all your help.

George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 Pro 64, Gigabyte H310M S2P/i7 9700K 3.6Ghz 6C/32G ram/Crucial 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue/Asus 32" mon, Audient ID14, Yam HS5/JBL 305P MkII/Kali LP6, Easy D 2, Addictive D 2, Slate Trigger 2, Fab Filter, Softube, Soundtoys, Waves, Slate PI's, Melodyne, Nektar GX49, Yamaha P71, WA73, WA2A, 1176 Bluey, Distressor, DBX160, Sansamp RBI, Palmer PI03, E drum kit based on Rol/Yam/acoustic conv, Strats/Tele/LP, Fender Mustang/Schecter basses, Martin DM,home built tube amps, WA47jr, C414xls, MD421, KM184, ATM450, M160 & just enough confidence to be dangerous
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by garyshepherd on Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:15 am
I use the iD14 myself - and about 3 o'clock for my condenser mic is about right, my dynamic mic maybe a bit more. With guitar on the guitar channel you have the JFET so about 12 o'clock or less before the sound gets too crunchy.

Basically I record at those levels with the fader up to whatever looks okay on the waveform display - and if it sounds alright, and clear, then that is it. If I need more gain you can always increase the level of the event on the waveform display. I looked at the iD software once I think and have never bothered again with it, as everything seemed to work and sounded okay.

The iD14 has enough level as far as I am concerned and the preamps sound good. If the recorded result sounds good and the waveform looks okay, I would not get too hung up with "gain staging", or -18, or anything unless you are into all that (and some people are and that is good but you don't need to be to make good recordings). I just use my ears ! Seems to work okay.....

Please note that I may express opinions that are different from yours but I do not intend to cause offence.
____________
iMac 27" 3.3 GHz Intel Core i5, 32 GB Ram, Monterey 12.7, 64 bit, Studio One 6.5 Professional (always the latest) , Reason 11, Melodyne 5 Studio, Digital Performer 11.2, Korg Legacy Wavestation and M1, Arturia minimoog V, Helix Native 3.71, Bias FX 2 Elite, Superior Drummer 3, EZkeys, EZbass, Nektar Panorama T4, Motu M4, Faderport 2018, Gibson Les Paul Standard, James Tyler Variax JTV-59 and other gear.
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by georgegidzinski on Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:15 am
I have tried Presonus, Focusrite and two different Audient interfaces and I like the Audient the best. As you said good, clean preamps. Audient tech support just confirmed to stay off of the maximum hardware gain setting in the ID interfaces and go with the 10db digital boost, input gain in S1 or an in-line preamp for additional gain.

I am going to try all three and see if it makes any difference in the recording quality.


George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 Pro 64, Gigabyte H310M S2P/i7 9700K 3.6Ghz 6C/32G ram/Crucial 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue/Asus 32" mon, Audient ID14, Yam HS5/JBL 305P MkII/Kali LP6, Easy D 2, Addictive D 2, Slate Trigger 2, Fab Filter, Softube, Soundtoys, Waves, Slate PI's, Melodyne, Nektar GX49, Yamaha P71, WA73, WA2A, 1176 Bluey, Distressor, DBX160, Sansamp RBI, Palmer PI03, E drum kit based on Rol/Yam/acoustic conv, Strats/Tele/LP, Fender Mustang/Schecter basses, Martin DM,home built tube amps, WA47jr, C414xls, MD421, KM184, ATM450, M160 & just enough confidence to be dangerous
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by Jemusic on Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:40 am
In fact you don't even have to insert any meter into the Input channel insert. All you have to do is just expose the input channel existing meter. That meter is great for telling you where the peaks are and it will stop you from clipping. Its quite extended in its scale and its pretty fast.

Also the console channel meter when input monitoring is also going to show you incoming level.

Basically the meters in interface software don't really tell you anything other than a signal is present. If you do want to meter anything, the first port of call will be in the DAW itself.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by SwitchBack on Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:45 am
Jemusic wroteBasically the meters in interface software don't really tell you anything other than a signal is present. If you do want to meter anything, the first port of call will be in the DAW itself.

Hmm, note that a DAW only has access to the digital signal output of the ADC where the interface’s own software may also have access to what’s happening before (or inside) the ADC, especially wrt. to (almost) clipping. Proper interface clipping indicators are not just ‘the last LED on the scale’ but use a dedicated terminal on the ADC or even some analog circuitry as their trigger. That’s why it’s important to find out where the DAW’s meters are when the interface indicates clipping :)
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by georgegidzinski on Thu Sep 23, 2021 8:58 am
I wish there was a way to monitor the analog signal levels in my interface but it's not offered. I am just going to have to do some recording experiments to see what is happening at the extremes of the hardware input gain

George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 Pro 64, Gigabyte H310M S2P/i7 9700K 3.6Ghz 6C/32G ram/Crucial 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue/Asus 32" mon, Audient ID14, Yam HS5/JBL 305P MkII/Kali LP6, Easy D 2, Addictive D 2, Slate Trigger 2, Fab Filter, Softube, Soundtoys, Waves, Slate PI's, Melodyne, Nektar GX49, Yamaha P71, WA73, WA2A, 1176 Bluey, Distressor, DBX160, Sansamp RBI, Palmer PI03, E drum kit based on Rol/Yam/acoustic conv, Strats/Tele/LP, Fender Mustang/Schecter basses, Martin DM,home built tube amps, WA47jr, C414xls, MD421, KM184, ATM450, M160 & just enough confidence to be dangerous
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by Jemusic on Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:59 pm
In this case though the Audient meter is not showing analog levels coming in at all but rather what is after the A to D. Probably is in all cases in fact. eg Focusrite Control, I think maybe the Total Mix meters (RME) might be showing what is coming in maybe.

What I have found from experience is that if the DAW input meter is showing a nice level and not clipping, the interface software meter wont be clipping either. If you focus on the DAW meter, then you can basically forget about the interface software meter all together.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro

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