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Hiya! I'm usually verbose but going be as direct and accurate and to the point as possible. Thanks in advance for reading. I appreciate all of you.

NOTE: I've searched for this info on both Google and in these forums. I found a lot of tips to set up synths and signal generators but very little, if any, to set up external effects units. I currently think I'm at, like, 70% functionality. However, if you know of a resource that goes over this, post a link and I'll delete this chapter book. Here we go.

I have a TC Electronic M2000 and M3000, an ART DRX and a Lexicon PCM70 for reverbs / effects. I've been running them in S1 through Pipeline on FX tracks and it has been working well. Flawlessly, really. I am in Omaha and am gearing up to mix a record over the next week starting Monday. It is being recorded in Portland.

The studio there recently added S1 to their DAW list at my behest. The engineer in Portland has an M2000, M3000 and a PCM70 and part of the contract I've agreed to says I will send them updates on my mixes every night through Sphere (I am really excited about workspaces so I didn't see this as a bad thing though it's seems sorta annoying.) He asked if I could set up the external effects units as External Devices and run them into the session on an aux channel. That way when he opens up the sessions, the MIDI data of the session will be transferred to the effects units and they'll get to hear the reverbs and effects I'm using in the session without having to write down my changes and patches.

I have been doing this for 25 years and have never, ever, ever set up my external effects units as MIDI devices. Never controlled them with it when I had tape, never bothered with it in PT, never thought about it in S1. I have obviously worked with midi; from synths to control surfaces and controllers and such, but never effects units. I dove in to it today to set it up and realized I'm stupid as heck.

WHAT I'VE DONE: I just tried my M2000 as it's the easiest to access the midi ports. I've run the cable from the quantum to the MIDI In and from the output back to the quantum. I've set it up to send midi timecode and, by reading the M2000 manual, understand that Channel 1 affects the first engine, Channel 2 affects the second, and Channel 3 affects them both. I set it to only transfer on channels 1,2,3.

WHAT HAPPENS. So far I am able to control various aspects of the individual patches on the individual engines using channels 1,2 and 3 on the M2000 from Studio One using the edit screen in the mapping control section when I select EDIT in the External Devices window in the console. I am able to change all relevant information in the edit menu of the M2000 from Studio One except for one important thing (I'll get to this in a second.) When I make a change on the unit itself, I see it reflected in the Edit Screen window of the External Device in Studio One. I see it on the midi monitor and it does change the parameter. This is good.

WHAT I CAN'T DO: I can't seem to change the program or the bank. Both Program and Bank are greyed out in the inspector for the external device in S1. This would seem like an important thing, as I cannot change the preset in studio one, nor can I see a reflection of the Program changing in S1 on the MIDI monitor or the edit screen when I make a change on the M2000.

Here's my questions:

- Is it possible to send Program / Preset changes over midi from S1 to an external effects unit?
- Is "Instrument"option in External Devices really the best way to set up an a hardware effect unit?
- Is Aux at all optimal vs. standard FX channel?
- Am I just an idiot?
- Will I be able to flawlessly and easily compensate for delay to the units while using them as an AUX as I can in Pipeline?
- Do you run your external effects hardware as Midi devices?
- What is your Venmo / Paypal address? Post it below or DM me and I'll buy you beer / lunch for reading and responding. Thank you.

I feel bad asking questions like this. Among my circles I'm usually the one answering audio questions. But I just do not know anything about this.

Last thing; here's links to the MIDI CC chart and manual of the M2000.

https://mediadl.musictribe.com/download/software/tcelectronic/tc_electronic_m2000_midi_cc_specifications.pdf

https://mediadl.musictribe.com/download/software/tcelectronic/tc_electronic_m2000_manual_english.pdf

If this works, I will be fully converting all my effects units over to MIDI as the idea of this freaking rules.

Thank you for your time,
Ian

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by Lokeyfly on Wed May 12, 2021 5:59 am
Hi Ian,
Why anyone would request your effects settings via MIDI is a head scratcher. Sure, the audio results are fine sending to an aux, but in the finalizing analysis, much better left as separate stems.

I sold years ago, two PCM60's. They were crap compared to even the Open Air convo reverb, or my old XPS900, and 1000 (also sold). I'm sure your PCM 70 is better than the 60, but why d around with MIDI settings? So they can be turned on/off, or patch changed? The slightest change on the in/out and levels would be different from the studios effects chain anyway, so why not hear both the dry tracks, and additional effects stem(s) which would be the actual sound and not some MIDI instruction.

Not sure what your conversation or agreement was, but having to pass MIDI in view of effects I see as no advantage. Perhaps setting up or choreographing a live performance might prove different.

Just my take. ymmv.

Please note, I also don't (and wont) use Sphere, so that might alter your file sharing needs, but still, I still don't see having to supply MIDI data for effects necessary.

If youre still determined, my guess is treat each effect track separate, and capture the MIDI stream using by selecting the parameter, and using Studio One's control link to identify that parameter (the hand will turn white). You can then drag the hand to a track that's labelled that effect processor and keep each parameter stored that way. Or, drag the hand to a new track which will create an automation lane. You could make a folder for each lane, so experiment. Hope that helps. The automation lanes will be much clearer to see, and not event dependent.

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by Tacman7 on Wed May 12, 2021 7:29 am
ianaeillo wrote- Do you run your external effects hardware as Midi devices?


An external audio effect unit has to have audio hook ups and is an audio device.

You can change its settings using midi, lots of processors have midi implementation since the dawn of time.

Not all do though. High end ones do like these.

A librarian was sometime used to send midi/sysex to external units like midiquest
https://squest.com/

Does your equipment generate midi when you turn the knobs?

Some things you can record the knob movements to replay, something to check and see. See if there is any midi activity when you adjust the knobs.

I've found program changes on some synths, but they're hard to find.

When I was using external hardware I tried to have it on a digital loop, S/Pdif or ADAT.
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by IanM5 on Wed May 12, 2021 7:42 am
I think the studio guy is talking about SysEx dumps. I used to do this sort of thing in Cakewalk quite a lot but not for many years now. The basic idea is that if you have a song in the sequencer that uses outboard equipment that supports SysEx you can have the equipment sent a snapshot of its current settings to the sequencer then store it as a SysEx dump with the rest of the tracks. Then at any point in the future you can send the Sysex to the equipment and it will recall all those setting. So it's like recalling a preset except the preset is stored in the sequencer rather than in the equipment. I don't think Studio One has much support for SysEx so you may need to use a SysEx librarian program. I've used MidiOx in the past but I've no idea what the best one to use these days would be.

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by Tacman7 on Wed May 12, 2021 8:03 am
Cubase has a place to put sysex and it would be sent at a certain time etc.

I don't think we can do that. But I'm always learning something new here.

Changing to the correct patch is probably the only thing it would do, right?

Or do you go out and tweak the knobs on the fx unit? That could be done with automation if it's implemented.

I used to study these to figure out what I can do:

MidiImpliment.jpg


from M3000 manual

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by ianaeillo on Wed May 12, 2021 8:35 am
Thank you everyone for replying. I do understand that I have to hook up the audio as well, obviously.

Lokeyfly wroteHi Ian,
Why anyone would request your effects settings via MIDI is a head scratcher. Sure, the audio results are fine sending to an aux, but in the finalizing analysis, much better left as separate stems.

I sold years ago, two PCM60's. They were crap compared to even the Open Air convo reverb, or my old XPS900, and 1000 (also sold). I'm sure your PCM 70 is better than the 60, but why d around with MIDI settings? So they can be turned on/off, or patch changed? The slightest change on the in/out and levels would be different from the studios effects chain anyway, so why not hear both the dry tracks, and additional effects stem(s) which would be the actual sound and not some MIDI instruction.


I agree about the 60s. They absolutely have a flavor that I never got into.

Not sure what your conversation or agreement was, but having to pass MIDI in view of effects I see as no advantage. Perhaps setting up or choreographing a live performance might prove different.


Absolutely. The idea of constantly sharing the session back and forth is new to me. I'd do rough mixes for labels as sessions went on, but never report back to them nightly like this. I'm actually uploading the whole session, which is whatever. It's an ambient two-piece who, from my understanding from the label, would like to hear my mixes as they're coming along to see if there's things they would like to add or change. I use mostly Plugin Alliance and stock plugins and fortunately the studio has similar plugins since they've obtained S1. The MIDI implementation was a question by the recording engineer and I'm not sure he or I understand the integration as we intended.

Please note, I also don't (and wont) use Sphere, so that might alter your file sharing needs, but still, I still don't see having to supply MIDI data for effects necessary.


Totally! I don't think it's a necessity. I think they're just curious to see how things will be coming together and since it seems like the studio out there and I are decently compatible and sending the session files seem pretty easy with Sphere, he just requested something that maybe isn't possible?

If youre still determined, my guess is treat each effect track separate, and capture the MIDI stream using by selecting the parameter, and using Studio One's control link to identify that parameter (the hand will turn white). You can then drag the hand to a track that's labelled that effect processor and keep each parameter stored that way. Or, drag the hand to a new track which will create an automation lane. You could make a folder for each lane, so experiment. Hope that helps. The automation lanes will be much clearer to see, and not event dependent.


Totally. That helps a lot. I'm absolutely going to try this. Thank you very much for your response.

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by ianaeillo on Wed May 12, 2021 8:40 am
An external audio effect unit has to have audio hook ups and is an audio device.

Absolutely! I have that all hooked up fine. I knew I'd have to keep the midi and audio stream.

You can change its settings using midi, lots of processors have midi implementation since the dawn of time.

Not all do though. High end ones do like these.

A librarian was sometime used to send midi/sysex to external units like midiquest
https://squest.com/

Does your equipment generate midi when you turn the knobs

Some things you can record the knob movements to replay, something to check and see. See if there is any midi activity when you adjust the knobs.

Yes! I currently can move the knobs and see the changes inside of studio one. I cannot, however, get the Program Change area of the inspector to turn from grey and be changeable.

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by ianaeillo on Wed May 12, 2021 8:44 am
Tacman7 wroteCubase has a place to put sysex and it would be sent at a certain time etc.

I don't think we can do that. But I'm always learning something new here.

Changing to the correct patch is probably the only thing it would do, right?

Or do you go out and tweak the knobs on the fx unit? That could be done with automation if it's implemented.

I used to study these to figure out what I can do:

MidiImpliment.jpg


from M3000 manual


Absolutely. I've been studying that too. So on that sheet it says
Prog Change 0
True 0-127

How do I send that data from Studio One? That is what I am looking for.

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by ianaeillo on Wed May 12, 2021 8:45 am
IanM5 wroteI think the studio guy is talking about SysEx dumps. I used to do this sort of thing in Cakewalk quite a lot but not for many years now. The basic idea is that if you have a song in the sequencer that uses outboard equipment that supports SysEx you can have the equipment sent a snapshot of its current settings to the sequencer then store it as a SysEx dump with the rest of the tracks. Then at any point in the future you can send the Sysex to the equipment and it will recall all those setting. So it's like recalling a preset except the preset is stored in the sequencer rather than in the equipment. I don't think Studio One has much support for SysEx so you may need to use a SysEx librarian program. I've used MidiOx in the past but I've no idea what the best one to use these days would be.


I absolutely would agree that it is what he's looking for. I'm looking closer into this and less into total integration of S1. Thank you for your response.

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by Tacman7 on Wed May 12, 2021 8:55 am
There's a lot to think about, I'll have to look about sending program changes, I know they are used so there should be some sort of workaround, if that's all you need. That implementation chart shows you can adjust different edit parameters that would change depending on preset by sending them CC12, etc.

Do you do that? adjust parameters?

Have you checked out the librarians?, they can query your hardware and record the sysex response.

They were always pretty powerful.

https://squest.com/

Sound variations are new and I'm just learning them but I remember something about them being able to send program changes, have to look that up.

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by ianaeillo on Wed May 12, 2021 9:06 am
Tacman7 wroteThere's a lot to think about, I'll have to look about sending program changes, I know they are used so there should be some sort of workaround, if that's all you need. That implementation chart shows you can adjust different edit parameters that would change depending on preset by sending them CC12, etc.

Do you do that? adjust parameters?

Have you checked out the librarians?, they can query your hardware and record the sysex response.

They were always pretty powerful.

https://squest.com/

Sound variations are new and I'm just learning them but I remember something about them being able to send program changes, have to look that up.


Looking into all this now. I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Thanks.

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by Lokeyfly on Wed May 12, 2021 10:58 am
Hi Ian, Thanks for explaining even further as you find out more. Yeah, see if the MIDI need is bulk dump data, or real time as in automation lanes (or other). For bulk dump, Cubase also came to mind. There's always 3rd party SysEx programs, or even patch librarians that include SysEx dump and patch recall. Haven't used them in a while, as I'll just store patches and parameters in Studio One, which be called on even in another song. However outboard effects while I run via MIDI patch Bay, I haven't even looked at Studio One for bulk dumps. Dont think its there, but Interesting. I'll bow out, and read the post on the side. It's a pleasure speaking with you, and I'm sure you'll have it sorted with Tacman7 and IanM5 in no time.

Jemusic also runs outboard MIDI instruments and effects and may have sonething to add once you find out actual needs.
Best,
James

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by Tacman7 on Thu May 13, 2021 8:33 am
It looks like there should be basic program functionality in the sound variations editor.

So you would have a midi track that is just a control for your external hardware. It could send program changes via sound variations and do regular CC midi if you need it.

That's the theory anyway.

SoundVar2.jpg.jpg

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by paulwinterbourne on Sat Sep 11, 2021 10:01 am
Hi Mate,

I am too late on this I guess but I saw your thread when trying to do the same thing... and found a way to do it using envelopes

viewtopic.php?f=151&t=46249&p=271374#p271374

it works with my pcm70

cheers

Paul

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by ianaeillo on Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:47 pm
paulwinterbourne wroteHi Mate,

I am too late on this I guess but I saw your thread when trying to do the same thing... and found a way to do it using envelopes

viewtopic.php?f=151&t=46249&p=271374#p271374

it works with my pcm70

cheers

Paul


Hi Paul! Check your DMs!

Ian

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by Jemusic on Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:10 pm
I think its very good to try and do what it is you are wanting to do but as a precaution though I would also get the studio to print as audio all the effects as separate effects tracks in case you can't get any of it to work properly. Then at least you have a fall back option. Isn't the idea that you create exactly the same effects as what they are hearing there? Unless you want the option to be able to change the effects at your end compared to what they were hearing.

Can you get them to send you the effects presets. But then that is something that is more SysEx orientated. Midi OX or Mac (Sysex Librarian) will load and dump those sounds into your effects processors. Studio One cannot do that currently.

I have mixed sessions that were recorded elsewhere as well and even though I have had some processors in common to the tracking studio, I still got them print all the effects separately and inevitabley I ended up using those very effect printed tracks. They should not object to giving you those stems individually and wet (effects only).

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