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I think many of us experience that automation does not always work during (non real-time) mix down. I wonder if Presonus is aware of this and if not what would be the way to report a bug to the programmers.

I did contact support. The reply I got is that you can only use automation if you use real time rendering!

If someone has a work around that would be very welcome. Thanks!

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by bailatosco on Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:17 am
webhamster wroteThe reply I got is that you can only use automation if you use real time rendering!


If that was the literal response then that's atrocious.
This has been a thing since 2015 at least, and they of course know about it.
Automation not rendering would be a no-brainer hotfix in any universe, but amazingly they just can't or don't care about fixing it.

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by Tacman7 on Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:41 am
I don't use a lot of automation, so not experienced with the problem.

So to test I put a wild pan on a vocal section and export mixdown and it had the pans in it.

What is real time rendering? Record from loopback?

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by webhamster on Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:10 am
The exact support reply was: “Either prerender or use Transform on the automation track. Or, when you go to render the song, use the Export in Realtime option. Most Automation needs to be rendered out in real time.”

As far as I can tell this happens only with a complex song that is close (or over) the cpu limit. You can tell because the mixdown window freezes (the remaining time is no longer updated).

It does indeed not happen all the time.

When doing your mixdown you can choose ‘realtime processing’. When doing so S1 does the mixdown in real time, so a 2 minute song will take 2 minutes to render. This is needed when working with external instruments, but an issue if you want to render a song that uses more than 100% cpu (or if you don’t want to wait like in the old Pro Tools days).

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by Tacman7 on Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:21 am
Yea I didn't do the realtime mixdown. So if you render sections...

I used to turn everything to audio before a final mix but too lazy now.

Sounds like if the job gets too big automation is the first to go.

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by gregghart on Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:08 am
I use quite a bit of automation and have never done real time rendering. My automation has always worked. I don't know where they got that answer. I

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by webhamster on Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:32 am
gregghart wroteI don't know where they got that answer. I

I've wondered the same thing. I can't imagine Presonus instructing their support team to avoid bug reports this way.

It is a shame, because a lot of users know about this bug, but it might never get to the dev team. At least that would offer an explanation why this bug has been around for so many years now.

I work on Windows now, but remember having the same issue on MacOs years ago.

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by robertgray3 on Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:27 pm
You seem to mention having a song with CPU activity at 100% before bouncing- you need to Transform something for the DAW to function properly at that point.

I have never had issues with automation not rendering and I do not use Real Time, but I also never allow my song to get to a point where I can not play it back without dropouts.

Dont you have audio engine dropouts when rendering real time if your CPU is peaking?

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by webhamster on Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:33 pm
robertgray3 wroteyou need to Transform something for the DAW to function properly at that point.

The whole point of offline rendering is that you can do CPU intensive stuff that you cannot in normal playback? Many plugins offer higher oversampling for offline renders.

Even 1 cpu spike would be a problem if we still had to render everything real-time like in the old days. Not sure why so some people here and at Presonus support are such fans of real-time rendering.

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by robertgray3 on Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:40 pm
Yeah but how CPU intensive? You said 100%. That’s asking a little much. You can’t even play your mix back at that point.

Again, I never use Real Time rendering unless using hardware and I always have my automation print properly.

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by webhamster on Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:43 pm
robertgray3 wroteYeah but how CPU intensive? You said 100%. That’s asking a little much.

Why would that be asking too much? It didn't used to be a problem, even if it was a 10.000%. It just takes a bit (or a lot) longer.

It looks like, and I will need to try this on more projects, that a simple 'fix' is to keep moving the rendering 'countdown' dialog. Somehow that seems to keep it alive (and appears to render the automation as well).

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by bailatosco on Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:01 am
First off, this bug (or whatever it is) is absolutely real and it's been there since at least 2015 (I've arrived at Studio One at the beginning of ver. 3 so I don't know about before that). That's 6 years. SIX YEARS. Sorry for repeating myself, but saying "it doesn't happen to me" serves no purpose here, except for chipping away from the seriousness of the matter.

You would usually begin noticing this issue when you REALLY start using the DAW. And I don't mean killing it CPU-wise, just complex projects with lots of plugins and automation and longer-than-3-minutes songs.
I spend so much time trying to reproduce it consistently and sometimes it seemed to be gone but it always came back in another project, in another way.

Also I don't think that trying to render a project that consumes a lot of CPU and you couldn't play properly in real time is asking too much. There's now a bunch of plugins that let you oversample or increase resolution when you render offline and if your project was at maybe 60% cpu it could go up a lot higher when you render. THAT SHOULD NOT BE A PROBLEM, as it is not a problem in other daws, as webhamster said: it should just render slower. I don't have this problem in Pro Tools, or Reaper, or Ableton.

By the way, the last time this happened to me was on a Post-Production project for a movie, the project never went above 38/40% CPU. It's so much fun to render that in real time every time you have to make subtle corrections. This was in 5.1.2 I think, when I decided to give SO a shot after a long time.

My guess is, this is something buried deep in the engine of the DAW, I like to dream that they are still trying to solve it so I can use SO for serious work again.

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by webhamster on Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:08 am
bailatosco wroteFirst off, this bug (or whatever it is) is absolutely real and it's been there since at least 2015 (I've arrived at Studio One at the beginning of ver. 3 so I don't know about before that). That's 6 years. SIX YEARS.


My worry is that the developers simply don't know about this bug (even though it has been around for so long), because there does not seem to be any way to report bugs to Presonus.

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by kisnou on Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:18 pm
Ahh Studio One and its amount of bugs.. I was working in a project and the automation lane (half of it) disappeared into the void ahah

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by robertgray3 on Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:44 pm
bailatosco wroteif your project was at maybe 60% cpu it could go up a lot higher when you render. THAT SHOULD NOT BE A PROBLEM


I believe that for a lot of plug-ins (could be wrong) the host communicates with the plug-ins that it’s an offline render and the plug-ins engage oversampling. For those plug-ins, I believe it should work as you describe where it takes longer.

Since you mentioned this happening in a file that played back normally, can you provide a list of plug-ins you have that do this (contextually engage oversampling)? Perhaps if we share some in common I can look at them specifically and see if there’s some point I can get automation to fail in an offline bounce also.

If you search you can see Presonus has tried to reproduce this in threads before and, understandably, the users usually lose patience with the process before they find the right combination of plug-ins and actions to cause the error.

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by bailatosco on Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:19 am
webhamster wrote My worry is that the developers simply don't know about this bug (even though it has been around for so long), because there does not seem to be any way to report bugs to Presonus.


What do you mean? Of course there's a way to report bugs. The problem is, the burden of proof is always on you. If you can't present your case in a way they can reproduce it, that bug will be buried and forgotten, even if it is a really serious one, a really old one, one for wich threads are created several times a year for six years, and makes the daw pretty unusable for a bunch of people. ;)

Believe me, they know/knew about it, the thing is they couldn't reproduce it when they tried and I don't think it is part of their policy to go look deep into the code for this kind of thing, no matter how bad it is.

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by webhamster on Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:25 am
bailatosco wrote
webhamster wroteBelieve me, they know/knew about it, the thing is they couldn't reproduce it when they tried.


I just got confirmation from support that it is indeed a known bug, but as you said, they've been unable to reproduce it. The initial response I got was that it wasn't a bug, but automation often only works in real-time. It took a few mails before I got that confirmation.
Now that it finally is confirmed I will see if I can find a way to reproduce it consistently.

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by wdkbeats on Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:09 pm
This bug is real, I reported it many times since v3 came out... PreSonus just ignores it and acts like everything's OK.

The only solution I found is this: when rendering a mix you have to grab and move a little the export window every 30 seconds or so, just so it doesn't go out of focus and freeze. Once it freezes the automation stops being rendered.

I moved to Reaper so I don't really care about Studio One. Definitely not going to spend any more money on it. Shame on PreSonus.

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by kisnou on Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:33 am
This is terrible. It's amazing how my reputation of Presonus went from 100 to 0 in a few months. From the outside, it seemed like a good company, but from the inside, I can see there are sooo many issues that are just ignored while they add new features :O
This is just terrible for me, I think a stable DAW is much much better than having 100 more new features.

I can't work thinking that sooner or later I will experience a new bug that will stop my creativity, especially because I work full time in music.

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by bailatosco on Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:58 am
robertgray3 wroteSince you mentioned this happening in a file that played back normally, can you provide a list of plug-ins you have that do this (contextually engage oversampling)? Perhaps if we share some in common I can look at them specifically and see if there’s some point I can get automation to fail in an offline bounce also.


In this last project I did, the only plugin of that kind that I used was Soothe2. But as I said I'm not really using SO that much, especially not for mixing. I just gave it a shot since version 5 has had several revisions already and this movie was a pretty simple project (for a post-production).

But really, I think it's a real waste of time to think this matter in terms of third party plugins, we are waaaaaay past that point with this "bug".
In the last 6 years I've used lots of plugin brands and bundles, some are long gone from my vst folder, new ones have entered and this issue has lived through all that.

It may sound harsh but I think after all this time the only thing left to do is to keep this kind of threads alive and hope that at some point the developers take a look at what the hell is happening in the code that produces this behavior.

(Good thing is we are past the dark ages of this forum, when this kind of thread would get deleted)

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