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roland1 wroteHi folks. I thought I'd move this out of the release notes so we can talk about and analyze this issue more seriously — and maybe learn a few work-arounds as we wait for an official fix.

Thanks already to Stefan for providing an easy to use file to test your own PDC issues.


Thanks for your work and making the problem so clear.

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by patricemazmanian on Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:06 pm
roland1 wrote
patricemazmanian wroteVery strange, with the buffer at 32, bypass off/on all plugs works! My tracks are sync again


They may not be in sync but merely benefiting from the increased buffer speed which makes the signals appear more in sync. But as you know, in the real world, mixing occurs at high buffer/block settings — 1024 and up — where you would then begin to notice the PDC timing issue.

Unless that issue doesn't exist, which I'm hoping for soon. :)


No, when I change the buffer size, everything is syncronized, even if I am at 1024 buffer!

I have no problem with the vsts, just with Pro eq
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HFpXAUXSK0

S1 pro 6 -Vienna Ensemble Pro - Melodyne - Notion 6 - Win10 - jBridge 1.65 - Motherboard ASUS Z87-K - i7 4770K 3.5Ghz, 32 Go RAM - GeForce GT 610 1024MB - Audio interface RME Hammerfall multiface II - Faderport - ADAT Interface Focusrite Scarlett OctoPre - EWQL hollywood-orchestra...
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by bruceqld on Sun Mar 14, 2021 3:12 pm
I previously thought this was just an issue with pipeline, however your thread prompted me to run a test using entirely different 3rd party compressors and plugins. Sidechain delay compensation is indeed completely broken! Not good at all. Thanks for posting this.

Studio One 5.11 Pro, Win 10, Asus ROG i7, 32 Gb Ram, SSD, RME Fireface UFX, X32, Atom, Faderport USB
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by Skaperverket on Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:48 am
roland1 wroteAnd I didn't see the issue listed in any release notes as in "Please be cautious with sidechaining etc., because the timing is broken in this release."


I agree with you so much in your stance on this, roland1. A friend would never leave a friend in the dark like that. But I cannot remember ever having seen PreSonus write such a thing. I don't think it's a part of their business strategy.
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by Skaperverket on Mon Mar 15, 2021 1:56 am
robertgray3 wrote[...]Remember, DAW developers don’t tend to use the software as frequently or to the same degree as the users. [...]


You nailed it, robertgray3. This wisdom is applicable to so many parts of life.
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by garyanderson5 on Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:05 am
Skaperverket wrote
robertgray3 wrote[...]Remember, DAW developers don’t tend to use the software as frequently or to the same degree as the users. [...]


You nailed it, robertgray3. This wisdom is applicable to so many parts of life.


Exactly this.

So how i find problems lets call it. I use my DAW the same way unless a new feature crops up then you learn it. I am fairly OCD i always have been. As soon as you notice something is off with tools you use over and over you think, hang on something is wrong here. I think this is were we the users come in. I think the reason this never gained traction fast enough is some people never sidechained on some projects or simpley used zero latency plugins. Not everyone uses the whole DAW and every feature all the time is another factor. Once they read a post and checked themselves they then noticed the issue.

When Steinberg released SX3 it was unstable in every way on my system. It took till the very last update when they moved to Cubase 4 before i could use the software. It wasn't cheap back then either. So if people have to send tickets to get the attention something needs i am all for it. I would hate for someone to suffer the way i did with SX3, its a horrible experience.

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by roland1 on Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:10 am
Philosophically speaking, we're up against two enemies to genuine social and technical progress.

[Allow me a slight digression here to put this in perspective]

1) We live in a world where our survival is money-dependent, thus creating the need for constant selling. This is as true for the makers of war armaments as it is for DAW makers creating upgrades. (I just got a notice from Waves inviting me to give them some more money).

2) Human beings are status conscious and will deny or lie about their wrongdoings in order not to lose their standing within the tribal hierarchy (however corporatized or nationalized it has become).

So you've got constant selling and constant deception to avoid disrupting the flow of the selling. It makes sense that things get shipped out broken because they have to keep selling. And while we're hoping for honesty, well, we just went through a few years of seeing how bad things can get.

And now, back to our regular programming. :shock: :shock: :shock: Yabba Dabba Doo.

Studio One Pro (v5) on i7 7700 win10 PC w16GB RAM and a Mac Pro Tower (w/RME & Focusrite interfaces.)

I use S1 as an author/musician/multi-media artist.
My work includes the newly released: Clearing a Path to Joy (And finding contentment along the way) [AuroraSkyPublishing.com]
and my upcoming music video, Too Big To Fail, which introduces Citizen Based Social Planning — "the next step in the evolution of democracy." You know...typical everyday stuff. :)
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by SMcNamara on Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:20 pm
I finally had the opportunity to take the zip file to the studio and like others experienced the rhythmic “click” (am on 5.2). Interestingly, if the Pipeline plug is Kobe Ahmad of the compressor, the problem disappears. ???

Separate inquiry re:this zip song: if you turn off the compressor (whether it’s before or after Pipeline), why doesn’t the click play in Tracks 2-7 at all? I don’t get the signal flow.

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by stefanrauch1 on Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:44 pm
The click is sent to the Sidechain Input of the compressor on track 2.
In the compressor the Sidechain Listen is enabled to hear the click through the Sidechain Input and make the problem apparent.
The Pipeline Plugin stands in as a dummy plugin that causes Latency.
From there the signal is send in the Sidechain Input of the compressor on track 3 and undergoes the same treatment and so on.
The Distortion-Filter thingy (and track 3 to 7) is just me having a little fun and not really relevant.

The issue is dependent on where in the chain the latency is caused, so putting pipeline before the compressor in this test-song does not result in uncompensated latency inside the Sidechain.

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by SMcNamara on Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:52 pm
stefanrauch1 wroteThe click is sent to the Sidechain Input of the compressor on track 2.
In the compressor the Sidechain Listen is enabled to hear the click through the Sidechain Input and make the problem apparent.
The Pipeline Plugin stands in as a dummy plugin that causes Latency.
From there the signal is send in the Sidechain Input of the compressor on track 3 and undergoes the same treatment and so on.
The Distortion-Filter thingy (and track 3 to 7) is just me having a little fun and not really relevant.

The issue is dependent on where in the chain the latency is caused, so putting pipeline before the compressor in this test-song does not result in uncompensated latency inside the Sidechain.


You guys are way ahead of me! :D Great work on this.

Windows 10 64-bit | Studio One Pro (newest update at time of posting the message) | 8 cores | 16GB Ram | Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 interface (2nd Gen) | Presonus Eris E44 Monitors | Atom SQ | Roland VG-99 | EZBass, EZKeys 2, Superior Drummer 3, EZ Drummer 3, various other virtual instruments | a surfeit of guitars and third-party plugins :)

Newest release, using Studio One

Other music created in Studio One
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by risotto on Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:47 am
I came across this issue by myself because I use sidechain input quite often in my mixing. I'm mainly working with recorded audio material and as an example I use it for triggering drum gates from a spike sidechain signal. In addition I work a lot with classical frequency based multiband band compression. And I wondered why the actual song I'm working on was completely messed up. I've skipped 5.1 so the issue got present with the new release. I did some tests to confirm this. The song provided here shows this and also my own tests with more simple routing could confirm this instantly.
So I had to go back to 5.0.2, I can see no workaround for me to work with the versions above without dropping the use of sidechain completely.
I'm a bit afraid that this issue is a bit more complicated to fix because it is present since 5.1 without a hotfix.

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by patricemazmanian on Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:43 am
patricemazmanian wrote
roland1 wrote
patricemazmanian wroteVery strange, with the buffer at 32, bypass off/on all plugs works! My tracks are sync again


They may not be in sync but merely benefiting from the increased buffer speed which makes the signals appear more in sync. But as you know, in the real world, mixing occurs at high buffer/block settings — 1024 and up — where you would then begin to notice the PDC timing issue.

Unless that issue doesn't exist, which I'm hoping for soon. :)


No, when I change the buffer size, everything is syncronized, even if I am at 1024 buffer!

I have no problem with the vsts, just with Pro eq
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HFpXAUXSK0

Small problem, the video is available now ! Excuse me :lol:

S1 pro 6 -Vienna Ensemble Pro - Melodyne - Notion 6 - Win10 - jBridge 1.65 - Motherboard ASUS Z87-K - i7 4770K 3.5Ghz, 32 Go RAM - GeForce GT 610 1024MB - Audio interface RME Hammerfall multiface II - Faderport - ADAT Interface Focusrite Scarlett OctoPre - EWQL hollywood-orchestra...
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by robertgray3 on Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:07 am
risotto wroteI came across this issue by myself because I use sidechain input quite often in my mixing. I'm mainly working with recorded audio material and as an example I use it for triggering drum gates from a spike sidechain signal. In addition I work a lot with classical frequency based multiband band compression. And I wondered why the actual song I'm working on was completely messed up. I've skipped 5.1 so the issue got present with the new release. I did some tests to confirm this. The song provided here shows this and also my own tests with more simple routing could confirm this instantly.
So I had to go back to 5.0.2, I can see no workaround for me to work with the versions above without dropping the use of sidechain completely.
I'm a bit afraid that this issue is a bit more complicated to fix because it is present since 5.1 without a hotfix.


Having used Studio One since 3.5, I've seen them fix very complicated issues in short order before. The real question is whether or not they realize it's important, perhaps by weighing the fact that this is an issue that greatly impacts the "working pro" crowd.

Something like 95% of Top 100 records are worked on in Pro Tools and Logic, and a huge portion of notable film/TV, so most DAWs that aren't those two are to some degree divorced from the feedback of the more demanding pro users.

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by stefanrauch1 on Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:22 am
risotto wroteI'm a bit afraid that this issue is a bit more complicated to fix because it is present since 5.1 without a hotfix.

I think Robert is right, it's mainly a problem of priorities and resources.

EDIT:
I'm sorry, the butthurt part of my brain wanted me to write the following opinion piece.

Well, I don't see many people talk about the showpage, so maybe it's time to abandon this sideproject, like the batchprocessor (which btw does not compensate for latency at all), or the plugin "manager" (which does not even recognize deinstalled plugins), or _______ [fill in blank with your favorite example]..
Resources then could perhaps shift back towards maintenance of basic DAW stuff. Because more frustrating than not having a feature, is a half-baked or broken one.


ok, back to prudent me:

patricemazmanian wroteI have no problem with the vsts, just with Pro eq
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HFpXAUXSK0
Thanks for the video. I see what you are saying now. Tried it and can confirm this issue. But as it only occurs with ProEQ, it seems to be a plugin specific bug, worthy a separate ticket.

OS: Win10 x64 || Software: Studio One Pro [latest version]
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by robertgray3 on Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:34 am
stefanrauch1 wroteWell, I don't see many people talk about _______ [fill in blank with your favorite example]..
Resources then could perhaps shift back towards maintenance of basic DAW stuff.


I have no problem with new features. It's great that they're trying to improve open other things like MainStage or the concept of Plugin management or the (in my opinion awful) idea that all conversion should be done with clunky external audio editors.

The real issue imo is that mixing, audio engine, automation, and tool-based editing problems need to be considered show-stopping issues. When one of those four aren't working properly, the productive use of the DAW as a tool in the studio grinds to a halt. These are, ideally, tools for people who are releasing or aspire to release commercially competitive work.

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by stefanrauch1 on Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:54 am
agreed

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by adami on Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:11 am
It simply cannot be seen as a priority issue for Presonus, given the lack of a fix. For any serious user (and I am not 'professional ') working sidechaining is a requirement. Currently S1 doesn't have that. Seems a very strange situation.

Presonus Sphere.

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by reggie1979beatz on Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:34 am
This whole thread should be sent into support.

Bye......:roll:
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by stefanrauch1 on Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:34 am
patricemazmanian wroteI have no problem with the vsts, just with Pro eq
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HFpXAUXSK0
Thanks for the video. I see what you are saying now. Tried it and can confirm this issue. But as it only occurs with ProEQ, it seems to be a plugin specific bug, worthy a separate ticket.[/quote]

@patricemazmanian
Try to toggle the "High Quality" off/on. That seems to correct the offset until S1 is restarted.

OS: Win10 x64 || Software: Studio One Pro [latest version]
Hardware: AMD Ryzen 9 3950X || Asus Prime X570-PRO || 64GB DDR4 RAM || Asus Dual-RTX2070S-A8G-EVO || UAD2 Octo & Duo PCIe
Peripherals: RME Fireface UFX II (+2x ADA8200) || Faderport Legacy || Atom || NI Komplete Kontrol A25
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by roland1 on Tue Mar 16, 2021 4:03 pm
I'm loving this thread. So many people are testing and finding things that need to be fixed. It's such a useful heads-up for everyone, whether you're mixing or tracking. Let's keep filling these pages.

Studio One Pro (v5) on i7 7700 win10 PC w16GB RAM and a Mac Pro Tower (w/RME & Focusrite interfaces.)

I use S1 as an author/musician/multi-media artist.
My work includes the newly released: Clearing a Path to Joy (And finding contentment along the way) [AuroraSkyPublishing.com]
and my upcoming music video, Too Big To Fail, which introduces Citizen Based Social Planning — "the next step in the evolution of democracy." You know...typical everyday stuff. :)

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