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PreAl wroteWith V5 does each mix scene have its own unique automation or not? Or do they share the same automation? Won't have V5 installed until at least the first patch is released just curious. Thx.

Nope, automation is timeline/event based so outside of what the mix scenes process.
The mix scene is saving and recalling absolute snapshot(s) of each mix console channel. Does nothing with automation or timeline related.

But, of course you can emulate relative automation by using subgroups, clip gain envelopes or VCAs. Which is the path i'd take if automation and mix scenes were pulling a mix in opposite directions.

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by georgegalanos1 on Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:25 am
leonseaman wrote
georgegalanos1 wroteBut don't go out and start saying to people that you can easily recall your full mixes from the mixer and that you don't have to save different projects to recall your mixes anymore. That is simply UNACCEPTABLE.

Mix Scenes do exactly what it says on the tin - it's saving and recalling Mixer snapshots, how do you deem that UNACCEPTABLE? Because it doesn't overwrite timeline automation data?!! what?!

If it did affect/overwrite the timeline automation data then you'd be on here posting saying that's UNACCEPTABLE, think about it. There's far more than just volume and pan that goes into automation lanes. Plus, mixer scenes are not saved as a relative change, they are absolute snapshots of the console state.

This means that you cannot apply relative changes to the automation as you could be traversing from all kinds of absolute mixer values. Would be a mess.

If you want relative track automation, with the freedom to set mix snapshots on top of that, then just establish a more top down approach to mixing where your automated channels feed into a bus which is mixer controlled. People being doing this for years, nothing new or clever about it - it's up to you whether you put automation on the master/group channels, or within them - whatever suits the automation.

Also, one very important aspect to v5 that goes hand-in-had with mix scenes is the ability to perform clip gain envelopes - these will always be relative to the mixer fader, and is a far better way of working with mix snapshots vs volume automatons - There's a reason both features are part of this update.



I said it is UNEXPECTABLE to actually say that " You can now Recall complete MIxes without having to save a project file" which obviously is not the case here. Someone who is not a user can easily fall to a trap and buy the software, cause he thinks he can recall complete mixes through the console. It was very clearly stated by a Presonus Person. This is not the case. As you said yourself you can take snapshots, which are unusable if you have any type of automation in your song, as far as volume of course, because as soon as you hit play, the volume faders are going to change. No one said that there are not possibilities within this feature, and that is not a great implementation. But recalling complete mixes is impossible, especially these days and the way everyone uses automation, and that was my objection. Now of course there are ways to do it but again, its going to be confusing to do a full mix that way.. At the end of the day, you will need to load a different Song file. But again, all the possibilities are very welcomed. If you want to fully automate a 120 piece orchestra and build a mix with relative automation, then good luck with that. If someone used to work this way though, and has found a workflow, then good for them.
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by Anderton on Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:49 am
garyshepherd wroteI have been using Mix Scenes to switch between a general monitor mix of all tracks, and then a specific mix for when I am tracking vocals which has various tracks turned off or the volume/faders much lower. For that it is really useful - you can switch back to general listening, and then can switch to tracking - much easier than going through and fiddling with mutes and fader levels..


Check out this week's Friday Tip, it's related to what you're doing and describes how to use the Listen Bus to provide a dim solo function. If you comp vocals a lot, it's really handy to be able to do so in context with the sound of the other tracks, but at a reduced level so you can still hear the nuances in the comps.

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by leonseaman on Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:55 am
georgegalanos1 wroteI said it is UNEXPECTABLE to actually say that " You can now Recall complete MIxes without having to save a project file" which obviously is not the case here. Someone who is not a user can easily fall to a trap and buy the software, cause he thinks he can recall complete mixes through the console.

I just explained how you can(?). If you can't organise a session so that mix snapshots can be used fluidly then either adapt, or revert to saving versions. No-one has removed the ability you had before of complete performance and mix saving - this is offering you something different to that.

If you want to fully automate a 120 piece orchestra and build a mix with relative automation, then good luck with that. If someone used to work this way though, and has found a workflow, then good for them.

"Good for them"? You only have to use clip automation, VCA or sub groups - you could do that in less time than posting on here, select the group of tracks, right click 'add VCA' - done, use the VCA to set the levels of each group for mixing purposes, and their automation remains within.

Most mix engineers would be dealing with post automation audio stems anyway. Automation performed at the mixing stage is for correcting errors and/or harsh peaks, not performance related as you're referring to.

What you're ultimately asking for is relative automation to be writable in the timeline as an option during your arrangement, so that mixing can be set relative to that. It's not actually anything that Mix Scenes is doing wrong per se.

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by robertgray3 on Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:19 pm
Everyone’s got different workflows so these features may not be one-size-fits-all from day one, if ever. For example, my colleague who loves Snapshots in Cubase does automation after committing to the insert and level changes they used Snapshots to audition. At that point their exclusion of automation isn’t a problem.

As I mentioned before, there’s a long post on Cubase’s forum with a lot of folks calling the feature absolutely useless. Seems useful to him :D

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by leonseaman on Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:39 pm
Many people don't have a structured point where production/composition stops, and mixing starts - and so try to throw it into a single pot (i.e session/project).

A mix engineer dealing with audio stems would find great use in Mix Scenes as everything is performed in the mix console, whereas someone who has their production intertwined in the mix session will need to adapt if they're heavy automation users, and that automation data is part of changes within the snapshots.

Funny thing is that coming from Cubase, the way PreSonus has employed mix scenes is what many were asking for from Steinberg. lol, but grass is always greener! :)

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by Funkybot on Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:51 pm
I recall a bunch of Cubase users being upset at automation not being captured in Mix snapshots too.

I totally get the frustration. The issue is that a "mix" as most people think of it, exists in the time domain. Things in the mix change in level over time, or pan, or fx throws. So when you think "it recalls mixes" many users are going to assume that includes the time domain.

On the other hand, once you know this, just use the Versions feature. Perhaps Presonus should've looked to develop "Mix Versions" instead of the mixer/console snapshots we actually got.

Let's be honest though: Studio One does some things very well, but it takes a very (IMO) bizarre approach to how it deals with tracks in the console overall. Another example: I setup my drums, I route some to bus tracks, route those to a drum bus, add a reverb send, and attempt to save this setup as a Multi-Instrument setup or load it into a new project via Import Song Data. So then I go to recall, and half the tracks are missing. What the heck!?! Oh wait...I forgot! I have to put a plugin instance on some track types. And If I want it to recall things like sends, I have to create an automation envelope to get those to recall.

...I mean, this is not intuitive behavior, what the majority of users want, and the workarounds are band-aid solutions at best (but hey, thankfully they exist).

I think if Presonus sat down with some users and said, "ok, how do you work, what do you expect to happen" they'd get feedback about how, "hey, if I save a BFD3 setup with buses and sends as a multi-instrument, I expect everything to recall without having to add plugins or automation lanes." Same deal with Mix Snapshots. "How do you want this to work?" Answer: "I want to be able to save variations of entire mixes, including automation, and recall and access them from the mixer."

I think there's a dichotomy between things Studio One does very well, and so intuitively and easily, and some of their completely bizarre behaviors that go completely against user expectations like the examples above. Or here's another: why are the console meters pre-pan? It's the only DAW I've ever used to not reflect panning on the channel meters!
Last edited by Funkybot on Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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by georgegalanos1 on Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:53 pm
leonseaman wrote
georgegalanos1 wroteI said it is UNEXPECTABLE to actually say that " You can now Recall complete MIxes without having to save a project file" which obviously is not the case here. Someone who is not a user can easily fall to a trap and buy the software, cause he thinks he can recall complete mixes through the console.

I just explained how you can(?). If you can't organise a session so that mix snapshots can be used fluidly then either adapt, or revert to saving versions. No-one has removed the ability you had before of complete performance and mix saving - this is offering you something different to that.

I already said my self that this is a useful feature that can be implemented to any workflow. I said it about 5 times.


If you want to fully automate a 120 piece orchestra and build a mix with relative automation, then good luck with that. If someone used to work this way though, and has found a workflow, then good for them.

"Good for them"? You only have to use clip automation, VCA or sub groups - you could do that in less time than posting on here, select the group of tracks, right click 'add VCA' - done, use the VCA to set the levels of each group for mixing purposes, and their automation remains within.


I must be dreaming here, you actually did write, that you are going to automate a 120 piece orchestra mix with clip gain?? Clearly what I think automation actually is within the context of producing and mixing a record, is very different to what you do. First of all clip gaining affects the input of plugins, which means if you have a kIck drum, that goes in to a compressor, changing the Clip gain will affect the sound etc. So clip gain is out of the question. Unless you use stems, which again is very tricky, it depends on the job, clients, time, and what's needed to be done. As far as VCA's and Sub Groups, which is the way I use automation using a controller, if you have an Audio track that's set at 0db then you add a VCA to it, you then take a snapshot of the mixer, then lets say you do an automation lowering the volume by 1 db, the audio track will go -1. If you change the snapshot of the mixer to the previous one, then audio track goes back to 0db, but as soon as you hit play, it will go back down to -1db. so the snapshot as far as volume is not recalled. So how can you recall a full mix that way, am I missing something here? The only way is to have separate busses that are not affected by the Snapshot, and I think that's what you mean, which is a way and is fine, but again, it could get very confusing, and complicated.



What you're ultimately asking for is relative automation to be writable in the timeline as an option during your arrangement, so that mixing can be set relative to that. It's not actually anything that Mix Scenes is doing wrong per se.



Can I ask you something, just out of curiosity? I am not a programmer. How is it that in 2 -3 seconds, you can save a complete project, with all the automation, clip gain, plugins etc, that a project has within, in to a Song File, and with exactly the same way you can not implement that to the snapshot of the mixer? Why would that be a mess? Is it not possible the snapshot to actually "see" what is on the track if it is on READ mode, and store that information, just as I imagine happens with the project file?
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by georgegalanos1 on Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:01 pm
Funkybot wroteI recall a bunch of Cubase users being upset at automation not being captured in Mix snapshots too.

I totally get the frustration. The issue is that a "mix" as most people think of it, exists in the time domain. Things in the mix change in level over time, or pan, or fx throws. So when you think "it recalls mixes" many users are going to assume that includes the time domain.

On the other hand, once you know this, just use the Versions feature. Perhaps Presonus should've looked to develop "Mix Versions" instead of the mixer/console snapshots we actually got.

Let's be honest though: Studio One does some things very well, but it takes a very (IMO) bizarre approach to how it deals with tracks in the console overall. Another example: I setup my drums, I route some to bus tracks, route those to a drum bus, add a reverb send, and attempt to save this setup as a Multi-Instrument setup or load it into a new project via Import Song Data. So then I go to recall, and half the tracks are missing. What the heck!?! Oh wait...I forgot! I have to put a plugin instance on some track types. And If I want it to recall things like sends, I have to create an automation envelope to get those to recall.

...I mean, this is not intuitive behavior, what the majority of users want, and the workarounds are band-aid solutions at best (but hey, thankfully they exist).

I think if Presonus sat down with some users and said, "ok, how do you work, what do you expect to happen" they'd get feedback about how, "hey, if I save a BFD3 setup with buses and sends as a multi-instrument, I expect everything to recall without having to add plugins or automation lanes." Same deal with Mix Snapshots. "How do you want this to work?" Answer: "I want to be able to save variations of entire mixes, including automation, and recall and access them from the mixer."

I think there's a dichotomy between things Studio One does very well, and so intuitively and easily, and some of their completely bizarre behaviors that go completely against user expectations like the examples above. Or here's another: why are the console meters pre-pan? It's the only DAW I've ever used to not reflect panning on the channel meters!




You just said it all my friend that's exactly what I mean, that's why I get aggressive and frustrated. Really this DAW has amazing potential, and it is a great DAW, but some setbacks like the ones you mentioned which they get in my way too, can drive someone mad.

"""I think if Presonus sat down with some users and said, "ok, how do you work, what do you expect to happen""""
Thats the best sentence ever, and where all the lack of Presonus is. Just my personal opinion.
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by leonseaman on Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:27 pm
georgegalanos1 wroteCan I ask you something, just out of curiosity? I am not a programmer. How is it that in 2 -3 seconds, you can save a complete project, with all the automation, clip gain, plugins etc, that a project has within, in to a Song File, and with exactly the same way you can not implement that to the snapshot of the mixer?

Because it's just saving what's in the memory at the time into a re-callable file. That's not what a mixer scene is doing, it is only processing the mixer console settings.and allowing that data to be saved into final project file.

Why would that be a mess? Is it not possible the snapshot to actually "see" what is on the track if it is on READ mode, and store that information, just as I imagine happens with the project file?

Because it's not a technical limitation, Mix scenes work how they're supposed to, and is fully by design.

For example, let's say i had a project with two tracks - a drum machine and a synth bass.

I create a mix of the two and get it sounding good, so i save it (#1). Knowing i have mix scenes as a safety net I then start to experiment with more compression and EQ and i like the sound- so i save it (#2), and go back to the original scene (#1) to compare.

Then i advance further and add an automated cutoff sweep to my synth, save current mix to scene #2, and recall #1 to compare. Oh, i've lost the cutoff sweep automation on scene #1. - Imagine that scenario!

This is why it's important that the timeline data is totally separate from the mix scenes. Or else, what use is it?! Imagine if you had 10 mix scenes in a project and each one was saving the automation at the point in time when you saved - it would become a huge mess and certainly shouldn't be a default action.

What if you made song arrangements, or moved elements?
You would need to move through each mix scene and update the automation data to move also.

You're very much confusing performance/production aspects vs mixing. The whole point of the mix scenes is that it ONLY affects mix console, that's why many people love it's addition and the ability to apply many mixes utilising different plugins across the same production.

If it doesn't fit your workflow then it's up to you if you want to adapt to make it fit, or just revert to version saves. There's no right or wrong way to work. But just remember for the purposes of volume/gain if you use clip gain envelopes it will always be relative to the mix scene you're recalling.

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by georgegalanos1 on Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:32 pm
leonseaman wrote
georgegalanos1 wroteCan I ask you something, just out of curiosity? I am not a programmer. How is it that in 2 -3 seconds, you can save a complete project, with all the automation, clip gain, plugins etc, that a project has within, in to a Song File, and with exactly the same way you can not implement that to the snapshot of the mixer?

Because it's just saving what's in the memory at the time into a re-callable file. That's not what a mixer scene is doing, it is only processing the mixer console settings.and allowing that data to be saved into final project file.

Why would that be a mess? Is it not possible the snapshot to actually "see" what is on the track if it is on READ mode, and store that information, just as I imagine happens with the project file?

Because it's not a technical limitation, Mix scenes work how they're supposed to, and is fully by design.

For example, let's say i had a project with two tracks - a drum machine and a synth bass.

I create a mix of the two and get it sounding good, so i save it (#1). Knowing i have mix scenes as a safety net I then start to experiment with more compression and EQ and i like the sound- so i save it (#2), and go back to the original scene (#1) to compare.

Then i advance further and add an automated cutoff sweep to my synth, save current mix to scene #2, and recall #1 to compare. Oh, i've lost the cutoff sweep automation on scene #1. - Imagine that scenario!

This is why it's important that the timeline data is totally separate from the mix scenes. Or else, what use is it?! Imagine if you had 10 mix scenes in a project and each one was saving the automation at the point in time when you saved - it would become a huge mess and certainly shouldn't be a default action.

What if you made song arrangements, or moved elements?
You would need to move through each mix scene and update the automation data to move also.

You're very much confusing performance/production aspects vs mixing. The whole point of the mix scenes is that it ONLY affects mix console, that's why many people love it's addition and the ability to apply many mixes utilising different plugins across the same production.

If it doesn't fit your workflow then it's up to you if you want to adapt to make it fit, or just revert to version saves. There's no right or wrong way to work. But just remember for the purposes of volume/gain if you use clip gain envelopes it will always be relative to the mix scene you're recalling.



First of all, in your scenario, you will not lose anything, cause your automation will be stored and recalled in Scene 2. When you switch to Scene 1, the READ will be turned off and no automation will be used. If you didn't have the plugin on that scene, it will simply not be there. Just as it's working now. It is exactly the same as the Song File works. And that's no mess. I am not confusing anything, the way it is now, I never said it is wrong, it is just not completed, sort of saying. Real mixing desks, which is what we suppose to emulate in the first place, do exactly that. You run a mix you do your moves you store the Scene, you playback, and everything Volume-wise is there automated. If you want, you run another time your song, you set everything up,, WRITE that automation, store the Scene within the Mixers Software and now you have 2 scenes, whichever you recall the desk plays everything you did volume-wise. SO simple. I am not saying that it does not do what it supposed to do, but it so simple to add an AUTOMATION tick box then whatever is automated on that scene can be stored on the selected channels. Even if it takes longer to recall. It doesn't;t matter. Just give me that option that's what I am saying. What's there, already is great, I never said it isn't. It all depends on the genre of music really.
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by Bbd on Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:41 pm
Anyone is welcome any time to create a feature request for something they see a need for.
Please try to focus comments on the OP.

Again, if you want to start another topic about v5 Mix Scenes to get into this much detail, lease do so!

Bbd

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by j0001s on Sat Jul 25, 2020 2:57 pm
Ran into a Listen bus behavior / possible bug that I didn't expect.

I'm using the Listen bus to instantiate ARC speaker correction. I have my speaker outputs on the Listen bus, and I've set the Main outs to "None".

If you do that, low latency monitoring goes away for audio (no "Z" on the output). Possibly by design. However, in my case, the latency compensation goes out of whack. If I disable all plugins (latency shows as 0 ms), and set the extra buffering to minimum (not that it should have any effect with Z disabled), I still hear a significant delay on the channel I'm recording with driver latency set to 32 samples.

Set the Main outs to any real output, it behaves OK.

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by leonseaman on Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:18 pm
georgegalanos1 wroteFirst of all, in your scenario, you will not lose anything, cause your automation will be stored and recalled in Scene 2. When you switch to Scene 1, the READ will be turned off and no automation will be used

You said previously that each mix scene should hold it's own automation, so it would not be there as it could differ scene-by-scene.

At the moment i can keep all my automation, i.e. all the performance aspect of a song. And flick through the mix scenes on top of that. It's the concept, and it works great.

If you're now saying that the read option will be disabled when comparing mix scenes, what use is that? It's totally against the concept of mix scenes. I would have to go through all my tracks and re-enable automation to A-B.

Real mixing desks, which is what we suppose to emulate in the first place, do exactly that,.

Yes, and if you've ever used those old desks you had to either write down those settings, or if you were lucky enough to have a disk system save and recall to disk.

This is no different than saving to disk a version of the song, which we've had for a very long time,

You really need to equate mix scenes as multiple mixing desks that you can hard swap on to the tape that's playing back. That's the equivalent in a real world. All with the possibility of storing different compressors, CS, EQs etc.. Analog desks have never been able to affect anything within the tape that it's processing.

DAW automation, however, goes far deeper into the parameter of everything plugin instantiated, it's wholly different.

You run a mix you do your moves you store the Scene, you playback, and everything Volume-wise is there automated. If you want, you run another time your song, you set everything up,, WRITE that automation, store the Scene within the Mixers Software and now you have 2 scenes, whichever you recall the desk plays everything you did volume-wise. SO simple.


Again, this is why clip envelopes are part of this update, you apply volume automatons via that, and it stays relative to your mix scenes.

But it so simple to add an AUTOMATION tick box then whatever is automated on that scene can be stored on the selected channels.

Well, put a feature request if that's something you feel really needs to be added. Not sure what it provides vs saving versions though.

A better feature request would be to have relative automation on the timeline (i.e. +/- values). This way the automation stays in sync with the values on your mix scenes recalls.

Anyway i'm done on this subject as it's too specific for the general thread. Create a new topic if you feel it needs further discussion.

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by georgegalanos1 on Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:03 am
I searched for a specific sphere thread but I didn't find one. So here is the thing. Suddenly out of nowhere, I get a "Licence has expired" message, and I can not open SO5, I can not work, I am sitting here with clients, and the DAW won't open, cause it says that my licence has expired, even though in my Sphere account it says that is active. What the heck is going on?
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by IanM5 on Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:10 am
georgegalanos1 wroteI searched for a specific sphere thread but I didn't find one. So here is the thing. Suddenly out of nowhere, I get a "Licence has expired" message, and I can not open SO5, I can not work, I am sitting here with clients, and the DAW won't open, cause it says that my licence has expired, even though in my Sphere account it says that is active. What the heck is going on?


Are you connected to the Internet? Is your firewall blocking S1 and/or Sphere? It needs to validate the licence every 3 days.

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by georgegalanos1 on Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:15 am
IanM5 wrote
georgegalanos1 wroteI searched for a specific sphere thread but I didn't find one. So here is the thing. Suddenly out of nowhere, I get a "Licence has expired" message, and I can not open SO5, I can not work, I am sitting here with clients, and the DAW won't open, cause it says that my licence has expired, even though in my Sphere account it says that is active. What the heck is going on?


Are you connected to the Internet? Is your firewall blocking S1 and/or Sphere? It needs to validate the licence every 3 days.



I am connected, and its not firewalled, it was activating normally up till now.

Update: For anyone having such an issue. I went into the program data folder/ PreSonus, and deleted the license subscription file. and it worked.
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by vladimirpiskunov on Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:37 am
PreAl wrote
vladimirpiskunov wrote
Quietly wroteCan I ask what are your Display Settings/Scale and Layout at? Mine is set to 125% and I am having none of the problems that you mention. Its the fact that HiDPI Scaling works in S1 that I switched from Cubase.


I have to use 175% scaling (otherwise things are too small for the eyes)
4K resolution (3840x2160) in a landscape mode (display is 27inch).


Set it at 100% and tell us what this resolves. This will give better steps to reproduce.

The workaround (not ideal) may be to reduce the resolution.


Sorry for a late response.

Yes, changing Windows scaling to another value, or at least lower than 175%, fixes the playhead marker disappearance issue. Though for my eyes other preset scaling value are not good — either too big or too small for a 4k res and 27 inch.

So far I have no success with solving the issue and cannot use SO5 properly.

1) Windows DPI scaling does not work properly as the layout gets broken.
2) They removed the option to disable High DPI within the DAW (why on Earth?)
3) No other DAW I use (e.g., LIVE) has such scaling issues with plugins.

When I submit a ticket, the only refer me to 'contact plugin developers' and just ignore DAW layout issues I mention (outside of plugin scaling issues). I am really frustrated. I would be fine with a more blurry interface as it was in SO4, but just let me work.
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by markbeling on Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:10 am
Hello Folks . I hope everyone is doing ok.
Studio One 5 definately has quiet a big bug. Open up a track that you were working on in V4 in V5. Work in it for a couple of hours and watch how your startup disk space gets used up. I have sent a ticket but you get the usual runaround whereas support should just try doing this and see if it happens to them.

Starting a track brand new in Version 5 seems fine. I even did a whole clean OS re-install and this issue persisted.

Just a heads up to all. I wonder if you guys and Ladies have noticed this at all

Apple Mac Pro late 2013
6 core 3.7Ghz
Osx sierra
Studio One 3.5 Pro
2x presonus Quantums
2xPresonus Dp88
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by georgegalanos1 on Sun Jul 26, 2020 2:21 am
markbeling wroteHello Folks . I hope everyone is doing ok.
Studio One 5 definately has quiet a big bug. Open up a track that you were working on in V4 in V5. Work in it for a couple of hours and watch how your startup disk space gets used up. I have sent a ticket but you get the usual runaround whereas support should just try doing this and see if it happens to them.

Starting a track brand new in Version 5 seems fine. I even did a whole clean OS re-install and this issue persisted.

Just a heads up to all. I wonder if you guys and Ladies have noticed this at all



I too noticed a huge increase on my ssd audio drive's activity in general. And because I had other issues like spiking and staff, I even thought that my drive is dying. But I can not say if this is the same if you start a project from V5. Most of my projects are from 4.6 right now.

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