27 postsPage 1 of 2
1, 2
Unless I'm missing something, you can't hear playback audio on a track when low latency input monitoring is enabled (the green "Z" on the main outputs).

So how do the good folks at Presonus expect us to be able to punch in low-latency input-monitored tracks while providing custom headphone mixes for the various members of the band?

Configuration:
Outputs 1/2 are for the main mix
Outputs 3/4 are for the singer
Outputs 5/6 are for the guitarist
... and so on

Enable Cue Mix in Song Setup/Outputs for 3/4, 5/6
Make the Z green in the 1/2, 3/4, and 5/6 Outputs in the Mixer
Enable Input Monitoring for the vocal and guitar track

They can hear themselves fine, they can hear the previously recorded drum tracks fine.
I can control how much of their input signal they get using my sound card's mixer (turn up 3/4 for more of the singer, turn up 5/6 for more of the guitarist)

They run through the song and we get a pretty good take.

Now it's time to punch in the bad spot before the second chorus
I press play, but all they can hear are the previously recorded drums and anything they are doing live.

I disable low-latency monitoring on 3/4, and 5/6. Now they can hear playback, but not their live input.

So unless you are quick and can hit the "Z" and the asterisk (or set up auto-punch), it's not going to work.

My current work-around is to create a Send to the main output for all Input-monitored tracks and remember to disable this send if/when I disable Input Monitoring for those tracks (or you hear it twice as loud).

This just doesn't seem to be how the software was intended to work.

So what's the right way?

Thanks!

Steven

Steven Bell
Owner/Chief Engineer
Top of the Hill Music


Win10 Pro x64
16GB DDR
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 3GB
(2) Lynx AES16e's and Aurora 16's
User avatar
by shanabit on Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:07 pm
Preferences\Advanced\Console, Audio Monitoring MUTES PLAYBACK, TAPEMACHINE Style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2BTUH5fT5E

See if that is what you are wanting there

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhmT9SWCTLw

S1 Pro 4.6.1
OSX High Sierra 10.13.6
2010 MacPro Dual 2.4 Quad, 14 GB Ram
User avatar
by robertgray3 on Mon Jan 20, 2020 7:04 pm
If you’re talking about Green Z low latency monitoring I don’t do it often because it’s unintuitive and the audio always comes in a little early which vocalists always get thrown off bh. I think you disable monitoring but enable record. As you pass the punch in markers monitoring turns on.

If you mean regular monitoring then yeah I think Shanabit’s correct

My feature requests (every vote helps!)

Mac OS X Mojave 10.14.6
Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
Dual AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Quantum 2
User avatar
by tothrec on Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:33 pm
shanabit wrotePreferences\Advanced\Console, Audio Monitoring MUTES PLAYBACK, TAPEMACHINE Style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2BTUH5fT5E

See if that is what you are wanting there

Also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhmT9SWCTLw


I think it's actually under Options/Advanced/Console, but yes. That's what I was looking for.
Unfortunately, no matter if I have it toggled on or off I CANNOT hear playback if monitoring is enabled.

What now?

Steven Bell
Owner/Chief Engineer
Top of the Hill Music


Win10 Pro x64
16GB DDR
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 3GB
(2) Lynx AES16e's and Aurora 16's
User avatar
by mikemanthei on Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:36 pm
I feel your pain. I was really excited when I heard about LLM, but in reality, it's about as useful as screen doors for submarines. :)

...and while I've got this soapbox handy, I think the whole "Tape Style" setting is backwards. Every analog machine I've ever used does *not* mute playback...but hey, maybe they've used different machines across the pond. Or maybe I just had the luxury of working with some really nice gear.

I've been working a long time with musicians who expect these things:
* Their microphone stays "live" all the time. So they always hear themselves in the headphones... (and I need to hear them too)
* This must either be true zero latency or imperceptibly close.
* If they're doing punch-ins, they expect to hear what they already recorded on that track so they have confidence on when they're coming in. If they don't hear the previous performance, the session will just grind to a halt.
* When they're done with their take, they expect that I can play back that performance fast... no fumbling around re-patching things so they can hear what they just did.


With Studio One, I've only found 2 options. One for software monitoring, one for hardware.
If you're monitoring through software, there's really only one combination of settings that supports that workflow - - where you can record and play back-to-back fluidly without re-configuring everything.
Performers can hear what's on the track AND what they're singing both at the same time until you punch in..then they just hear what they're overdubbing. Playing back what they just recorded is as simple as rewinding and hitting "play".

* Options/Audio Setup/Audio Device: Set block size as low as you can given your current computer's capabilities.
* Options/Audio Setup/Processing: Set Dropout Protection to minimum (essentially shutting it off)
(why don't they just call it "off"?) You'll notice the "Z" disappears from the Main and Cue masters.
* Options/Advanced/Console: Set Audio track monitoring mutes playback(Tape style) = OFF / unchecked

On each channel you're recording on, enable both "record" (Red) and "monitor" (Blue) .
Your Cue mixes will now work as expected.
===============================================================================
And if you can't set your buffer size low enough, then your best workflow-friendly option is to do direct hardware monitoring of the signals you're recording so you can set your block size to 2048 (or whatever your maximum is) and just not care about it anymore. :)
The trick with that setup though... is to un-enable the blue "monitor" button on the channel you're recording so you don't hear a doubled signal. This will allow what's already recorded to play back in both listening modes... 1) when you're listening back, and 2) just before you press "Record" on a punch-in pass)

Studio One v2, 3, and 4 Professional
Presonus 1818VSL / Focusrite 18i20 / StudioLive 32S
24-core Ryzen 9. 32 GB RAM
Tascam US-2400
Faderport 8
User avatar
by tothrec on Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:27 pm
mikemanthei wroteI feel your pain. I was really excited when I heard about LLM, but in reality, it's about as useful as screen doors for submarines. :)
.
.
.


Thanks, Mike. You've confirmed what I was afraid of. And yes, you described perfectly what I do (work-around lack of LLM) when a client needs reverb, delay or EQ while tracking.

I'll create a FR...

Cheers,

Steven

Steven Bell
Owner/Chief Engineer
Top of the Hill Music


Win10 Pro x64
16GB DDR
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 3GB
(2) Lynx AES16e's and Aurora 16's
User avatar
by shanabit on Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:25 pm
This:
* Options/Audio Setup/Audio Device: Set block size as low as you can given your current computer's capabilities.
* Options/Audio Setup/Processing: Set Dropout Protection to minimum (essentially shutting it off) (why don't they just call it "off"?) You'll notice the "Z" disappears from the Main and Cue masters.
* Options/Advanced/Console: Set Audio track monitoring mutes playback(Tape style) = OFF / unchecked

or what I do here is monitor off my interface with Reverb from it so I don't monitor through StudioOne, low latency is better to for me.

Agreed, Low latency Green Z no work right. Turn that Z = OFF

S1 Pro 4.6.1
OSX High Sierra 10.13.6
2010 MacPro Dual 2.4 Quad, 14 GB Ram
User avatar
by robertgray3 on Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:06 pm
tothrec wrote
mikemanthei wroteI feel your pain. I was really excited when I heard about LLM, but in reality, it's about as useful as screen doors for submarines. :)
.
.
.


Thanks, Mike. You've confirmed what I was afraid of. And yes, you described perfectly what I do (work-around lack of LLM) when a client needs reverb, delay or EQ while tracking.

I'll create a FR...

Cheers,

Steven


Before you do a feature request did you read my post above? I was just using Punch In and Low Latency Green Z monitoring today for a whole session, works fine aside from a small stutter if your punch in is too tight.

My feature requests (every vote helps!)

Mac OS X Mojave 10.14.6
Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
Dual AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Quantum 2
User avatar
by tothrec on Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:11 pm
Before you do a feature request did you read my post above? I was just using Punch In and Low Latency Green Z monitoring today for a whole session, works fine aside from a small stutter if your punch in is too tight.


Your earlier quote:
. I think you disable monitoring but enable record. As you pass the punch in markers monitoring turns on.


Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. If I disable monitoring on a record-enabled track the artist will NOT be able to hear themselves.

Input monitoring does not automatically turn on just because you are in auto-punch mode or have punched in a track.

Right?

Steven

Steven Bell
Owner/Chief Engineer
Top of the Hill Music


Win10 Pro x64
16GB DDR
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 3GB
(2) Lynx AES16e's and Aurora 16's
User avatar
by robertgray3 on Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:45 pm
tothrec wrote
Before you do a feature request did you read my post above? I was just using Punch In and Low Latency Green Z monitoring today for a whole session, works fine aside from a small stutter if your punch in is too tight.


Your earlier quote:
. I think you disable monitoring but enable record. As you pass the punch in markers monitoring turns on.


Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. If I disable monitoring on a record-enabled track the artist will NOT be able to hear themselves.

Input monitoring does not automatically turn on just because you are in auto-punch mode or have punched in a track.

Right?

Steven


Did you try it? Turn on "Monitoring mutes playback (Tape style)" and try it, took me 60 seconds to confirm that yes, monitoring does automatically turn on when the auto-punch in is made. I'm using auto punch in mode for this, not doing it manually. So they hear the playback up until the moment of the auto punch when they hear live input.

I'm assuming you want Green Z monitoring because you mentioned it. That's the punch in process in Studio One when Green Z is enabled.

My feature requests (every vote helps!)

Mac OS X Mojave 10.14.6
Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
Dual AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Quantum 2
User avatar
by mikemanthei on Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:01 am
You're right, it does solve 2 of the issues.
The previously recorded audio does play back prior to the punch-in. And the "live mic" does get heard after the punch point. But since that mutes the live microphone before the punch-in point, it's not a good workflow. None of my clients will put up with that nonsense. They like to clear their throat, or sing a couple of "practice notes" before the punch-in point...or maybe just sing along with it so the punch-in sounds natural and fits with the rest of the performance. If the software mutes the "live mic", it's not possible.

Studio One v2, 3, and 4 Professional
Presonus 1818VSL / Focusrite 18i20 / StudioLive 32S
24-core Ryzen 9. 32 GB RAM
Tascam US-2400
Faderport 8
User avatar
by robertgray3 on Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:20 am
Then you need to use Standard Monitoring, do it on two tracks, or deliver a custom solution to your clients using hardware :thumbup:

My feature requests (every vote helps!)

Mac OS X Mojave 10.14.6
Mac Pro (Late 2013)
3 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon E5
32 GB 1066 MHz DDR3
Dual AMD FirePro D500 3072 MB
Quantum 2
User avatar
by garyshepherd on Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:15 am
Why does anyone punch in anymore? Just make another track and record on that - then comp the new bit in. Or just make another layer and comp from there. I can't understand why you would bother these days.

When I worked in a studio in the 1970's (IBC in Portland Place) it was 16 track (analog of course) and I was pretty good at "drop ins" as we in the UK called them - none of your automation points etc. - also had to be good at dropping out at the right time in case you wiped the next bit. But in the computer DAW world, I have never ever dropped in since. That is what audio editing is for as far as I am concerned.

Gary Shepherd

Please note that I may express opinions that are different from yours but I do not intend to cause offence.
____________
iMac 27" 3.3 GHz Intel Core i5, 32 GB Ram, Mojave OS 10.14.6, 64 bit, Studio One 4 Professional 4.6 (always the latest) , Reason 11, Melodyne 4.2.3 Editor, Digital Performer 10.01, Korg Legacy Wavestation and M1, Arturia minimoog V, Helix Native 1.82, Bias FX 2 Elite 2.1.6, Superior Drummer 3.1.2, EZkeys 1.2.5, Alesis Q49, Audient iD14, Faderport 2018, Gibson Les Paul Standard, James Tyler Variax JTV-59 and other gear.
User avatar
by mikemanthei on Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:48 pm
garyshepherd wroteWhy does anyone punch in anymore? Just make another track and record on that - then comp the new bit in. Or just make another layer and comp from there. I can't understand why you would bother these days..


That's a fair question. But in my mind what you're suggesting is more work, so I'll ask the same question. Why would *you* bother?

* If I create a new track, then the old recording doesn't get muted during the drop in. I would have to edit that old track to get rid of that part previous to the new recording. My clients would stop me and say "Hey I still hear the bad take in my headphones" . More steps.... and then when the artist says " you know what? Let's punch in a little bit earlier and fix those other two words", you're not ready.

* If I create a new layer then the artist doesn't hear any of the previous recording before the drop in. Another workflow killer.

The simplest possible workflow is just to rewind and take another stab at it while the artist is able to hear everything he or she needs to have the best chance of success. Why would you bother with all the other weird workarounds? These are all workflow killers. The artist is ready to sing right now and they have to wait 30 seconds (or more?) for you to prepare these workarounds. And then you glance through the glass and see this face :roll:

Also, if you add the function of pre-recording a couple of seconds, the DAW even gives you the ability to peel back the start and end point of your drop in after the fact so you'll never miss the perfect drop in I/O. I never set a pre-determined drop in point... it takes too much time and I can change it later! :-) :+1

What could be easier?

Now, I will admit that my workflow is built upon many decades of analog recording and a workflow that's really ingrained into me. It's also really ingrained into my clients... and that's really the more important aspect of it.. I needed to keep the immediate workflow of the old way while adding the benefits of DAW recording on top of that. I really like being able to work at the speed of my client's creativity. And that's a big deal!

Another disclaimer is probably appropriate here. Maybe if you are recording alone in your bedroom, or maybe you have new clients that don't know any better, you can do all those things. But when your client is used to a much faster workflow, you have to keep up or you will ruin the whole vibe! :-) I abandoned analog for digital to make it better, not to look like an amateur again.

Studio One Can Do It. But I've only found one specific combination of options that gets me there if I'm going to monitor through the software. If I'm going to monitor direct off of hardware, then I can jack up the block size not worry about whether my computer can keep up. But again, there's only one combination of settings that works right. Neither one of these options employ LLM.

(Edited for speeling and grammerrrr)
Last edited by mikemanthei on Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Studio One v2, 3, and 4 Professional
Presonus 1818VSL / Focusrite 18i20 / StudioLive 32S
24-core Ryzen 9. 32 GB RAM
Tascam US-2400
Faderport 8
User avatar
by mikemanthei on Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:53 pm
Hey Gary.

Just in case that comes off wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just imagine we're sitting around in the control room after hours on our 3rd adult beverage talking about workflow.... and the changing face of audio recording :-)

FWIW, I got to be pretty good at tricky drop-ins too... I once punched in just the middle syllable of a three syllable word.... and that was the day that I thought I should probably switch to a DAW :punk:

Studio One v2, 3, and 4 Professional
Presonus 1818VSL / Focusrite 18i20 / StudioLive 32S
24-core Ryzen 9. 32 GB RAM
Tascam US-2400
Faderport 8
User avatar
by Bbd on Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:45 pm
That brought back memories of punching in lead vocals and lead guitar in just about any micro space you can imagine. I got very good at it with tape. The punch out was just as important too!
Now I just record different takes and compile them later.

I do understand the point here. Hope you can find a good work flow.

Bbd

Please add your specs to your SIGNATURE.
Search the STUDIO ONE 4 ONLINE MANUAL. Access your MY.PRESONUS account.
OVERVIEW of how to get your issue fixed or the steps to create a SUPPORT TICKET.
Needs to include: 1) One Sentence Description 2) Expected Results 3) Actual Results 4) Steps to Reproduce.


OS: Win 10 x64 Home, Studio One Pro 4.x, Notion 6, Series III 24, Studio 192, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz, RAM: 16GB, Faderport 8/16, Central Station +, PreSonus Sceptre S6, Eris 3.5, Temblor 10, ATOM
User avatar
by Lokeyfly on Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:05 pm
Same here as Bbd. But however you do it, it's really all about what is comfortable. Hearing a good take, and keeping to the quality end of it. You could still do that off a new track. I get the advantages, so if punch in works with you, and your clients workflow, cool.
Hope it works out. I'd agree, that external hardware mixers (or dedicated multitrack-mixers) will also make cuing and monitoring while recording just that much easier, with more discreet options.

Starting to miss my TAC Scorpion, Yamaha O2R,Tascam 80-8 and Revox, and Lexicons. Well, actually, I don't miss the cost of buying that stuff! :shock:

S1 Pro 4.5.x, Laptop: VAIO i7, 8 core, Win 7 64x. Audio Interface: Audiobox 22 VSL, Audiophile 192 Controllers: Arturia Keylab 49 MkII, Novation SL25 MKII, Faderport 8, Roland JV-90, Roland GR-50, Roland Octapad, Akai MPD-18. MIDI Patchbay: MOTU 8x8, Monitors: Mackie HR824, Yamaha HS-7, Mixer: Yamaha Promix 01. Other hardware/Plugins and Libraries, contact me.

Latest Album: Amber & Blue

 My music

On Bandcamp

On YouTube
User avatar
by garyshepherd on Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:55 pm
mikemanthei wroteHey Gary.

Just in case that comes off wrong, I'm not trying to be argumentative. Just imagine we're sitting around in the control room after hours on our 3rd adult beverage talking about workflow.... and the changing face of audio recording :-)

FWIW, I got to be pretty good at tricky drop-ins too... I once punched in just the middle syllable of a three syllable word.... and that was the day that I thought I should probably switch to a DAW :punk:

Yes I totally understand that it's just swapping ideas - I prefer doing another take and editing in the new bit. But I can see where it might be tidier in terms of monitoring and in terms of the actual track (with no additional tracks or layers to edit).

But I just don't drop in anymore because I don't have to - in the old days we had to (running out of tracks and no audio editing barring cutting the tape) and it was stressful getting in to record in the right place and out. Yes there is more editing now of additional tracks (but it's really quick), but there is no faffing about setting up monitoring for hearing the track before the drop in point, and insert points for the drop in, and recording the drop in and out. So for me its easier - and I wanted to find out why others still did this drop or punch in.

I hope you sort it out - its one thing I don't have to worry about!

Gary Shepherd

Please note that I may express opinions that are different from yours but I do not intend to cause offence.
____________
iMac 27" 3.3 GHz Intel Core i5, 32 GB Ram, Mojave OS 10.14.6, 64 bit, Studio One 4 Professional 4.6 (always the latest) , Reason 11, Melodyne 4.2.3 Editor, Digital Performer 10.01, Korg Legacy Wavestation and M1, Arturia minimoog V, Helix Native 1.82, Bias FX 2 Elite 2.1.6, Superior Drummer 3.1.2, EZkeys 1.2.5, Alesis Q49, Audient iD14, Faderport 2018, Gibson Les Paul Standard, James Tyler Variax JTV-59 and other gear.
User avatar
by tothrec on Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:28 am
[quote
Did you try it?
[snip]
[/quote]

( :oops: No...

Thanks for the extra effort.

So, I've got Green Z enabled for the track.
Armed, but with Monitoring OFF.
Select a section. Use my fancy new "Auto Punch Selection" macro that I added to my toolbar and ran into the iso room.

What? It works???

How'd you figure that out? I mean, the track shows Monitoring OFF and yet I can hear the Armed track.

Presonus replied to my FR that they would add it to the list of requests. So apparently they don't know about this trick

Cheers!

Steven

Steven Bell
Owner/Chief Engineer
Top of the Hill Music


Win10 Pro x64
16GB DDR
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 3GB
(2) Lynx AES16e's and Aurora 16's
User avatar
by tothrec on Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:06 pm
garyshepherd wroteWhy does anyone punch in anymore? Just make another track and record on that - then comp the new bit in. Or just make another layer and comp from there. I can't understand why you would bother these days.
[snip]
.


Hey Gary,
Creating a new track just to punch in a bad line? That sounds like more work/hassle than just going back a couple bars, hit play and then punch in at the bad line. What do you put in the headphones leading up to the bad line? Do you select the bad line (in the copy of the track) and mute it so they don't have to hear it while tracking the replacement?

A new layer is created automatically and it automatically replaces the previous take. Done.

What am I missing?

Steven

Steven Bell
Owner/Chief Engineer
Top of the Hill Music


Win10 Pro x64
16GB DDR
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 3GB
(2) Lynx AES16e's and Aurora 16's

27 postsPage 1 of 2
1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: famuyiwasegun and 17 guests