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Nip wroteSo I think you should go with just nudging clips as needed. You can make a macro that do that for you - to any misplacement you want - just one key command and done.

Not sure if you use a breath controller while playing live - but seems to me you are programming these notes.

Not sure I understand fully though, from you description.

You have a separate track that you delay that only hold legato controls and portamento stuff?
So that your final pitch is in time with grid?

A little bit like playing slide on guitar, you start a bit low early and raise to pitch while playing.


I'm reporting a bug that the negative track delay is unstable and doesn't work, and multiple people have confirmed this to be the case even within the supported limit the manual provides.

I stated very clearly in the OP this has nothing to do with recording, and the tests were run on basic quantized MIDI events upon playback and described the exact behavior replicated across all plugins. Listen to the examples I provided, the 300ms version is butchered. It's just basic eighth notes I clicked into the piano roll and played back through pianos, synthesizers, drums, etc.

For your later questions, I just wanted to give context for why large values are useful to me. But essentially yes, the final pitch is in time with the grid, and I am using negative track delay as a way to allow that to happen even with slides that require earlier onset. No, it is not a separate track, it is the same track as non-legato notes. The plugin dynamically aligns everything to a fixed latency and displays it to the user "Set your track backward by 243ms!" (number is just an example). It can not report this latency through Kontakt/VST to cause PDC to kick in, so it needs manual negative track delay set up by the user.

The implementation of that isn't necessary to get into and doesn't pertain to the bug. As I said this behavior of erroneous MIDI being sent from Studio One happens in every single VST instrument I try. Kontakt, Omnisphere, Diva, Trillian, Serum, etc. So whether or not there is a workaround for my particular kind of work doesn't negate the fact this is a more universal bug with the DAW that ideally should be fixed.
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by dlyttle on Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:07 pm
I ran into this issue when trying to use AudioBro's Genesis Choir. They have a feature where it will perform a 'lookahead', but relies on you setting a -350ms delay for this to work, since a true lookahead doesn't actually exist apparently.

I was getting all sort of strangeness with stuck notes, missing notes etc. I was originally putting this down to the VST but i added another VST and dragged my midi to that track. I ended up with the same results.

I then created a simple test project - just a new project and added Mai Tai to the first track. I just used the initial default patch but turned off the delay to stop it confusing things.

I added a short note on the each beat of the bar and copied it out to 4 bars.
I thought there may be some confusion with having a negative delay on a note at the very start of the song, so i moved the clip 1 bar in.

I then set my loop from the song start to the end of this clip, and exported a mixdown with no delay on the midi - this exported fine to my eyes. Playback of the midi and the audio both sounded fine.

Then i set a delay of -350 ms, and exported in exactly the same way, with the same loop settings. The midi actually sounded fine also when i played back the midi on its own (the first time) - I thought it was related to the loop start, but after fiddling it actually just seems pretty random as to whether it works or not. One thing to note - with the loop start = song start, the mixdown appears to be fine consistently, versus the inconsistent playback timing.

I exported 4 further mixdowns, each time varying the loop start position (exporting the loop only), as you can see - there seems to be pattern there as to when the timing slips.

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by Nip on Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:47 pm
dlyttle wroteI ran into this issue when trying to use AudioBro's Genesis Choir. They have a feature where it will perform a 'lookahead', but relies on you setting a -350ms delay for this to work, since a true lookahead doesn't actually exist apparently.

.


By reporting latency samples to host - the host should delay all other tracks audio accordingly - so the practical result would be lookahead.

But have seen some hosts like ProTools to have a limit of 16 000 samples that it can handle as pdc. At 48 000 as sample rate that is 333 ms..

Not sure if StudioOne has any limitation regarding this.

Other systems like Celemony ARA also allow a plugin to look through samples in advance as needed. But not sure what plugins other than Melodyne that use that. Good pitch correcting plugins usually need a lot of lookahead. If Waves Tune is 1000 samples or so.

So that Genesis Choir might look at supporting ARA2 which StudioOne support, as does Sonar, Reaper and Cubase(not sure if done yet)..

But if StudioOne support +/- 1000 ms track delay doesn't hurt, I guess.

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by Jemusic on Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:22 pm
PDC is not directly related to this. This is about advancing a track to play midi notes (or audio) early. Other audio/midi tracks will not need to be adjusted accordingly. Most often they will stay the same in terms of their timing.

PDC is about adjusting a tracks timing also, but to take into account latent plugins. What we are talking about here is negative track delay. Different. And yes a track may be advanced in time to play early e.g. 200ms and it may also have a latent plugin on it too and the PDC will take care of the latent plugin. (that might only be 15 mS so where is the connection?) Not related to how early a track is being told to play out though. (other than a track may be told to play out a total of 215mS early to cover both) What if a track is required to play our early but has no latent plugins on it at all. Then PDC does not come into the equation at all then. What if no latent plugins are being used anywhere at all in the session but a track is still required to play early. PDC does not factor in once again.

PDC is something that goes on under the hood and we don't have to think about it too much.

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by Nip on Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:21 pm
Jemusic wroteAs I have already stated PDC is not related to this. This is about advancing a track to play midi notes (or audio) early. Other audio/midi tracks will not need to be adjusted accordingly. Most often they will stay the same in terms of their timing.



Didn't say they were the same thing - just two different ways to accomplish the same thing.

Negative track delay on one track tells - play all other tracks later. Same as playing this earlier.

Reported latency on a plugin on a track - play all other tracks later, I have a delay here.(if only track with latency other will play back that amount later, if mixture of delays on different tracks more complicated).

So if StudioOne is not stable up to documented 100 ms, I guess they should fix it.

Is there much a demand for higher values - we will see how devs look on that.
Is there a feature request somewhere?

Because I don't consider it a bug, unless within 100 ms as documented and still cause issues.

That this 100 ms limit is long gone - have to stand for OP where he got that from. It seems to be more complicated to even keep those 100 ms, someone mentioning that 80 ms was already a problem.

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by Jemusic on Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:22 pm
It is definitely a bug. Because the timing falls apart even with delays below 100 mS. I have checked this. And yes some people need quite longer delays e.g. -200ms or -300mS etc.. to suit some of the longer attack sounds that may be on these tracks.

Ableton can do it up to and well over -500mS as I have tested. Midi timing is perfect and rock solid even with massive advance settings. Ableton can actually adjust these negative delays on the fly and settings can be changed while playing. You can hear the results as you adjust with is pretty cool.

Its been reported to the devs and they are already onto it.

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by snb1 on Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:17 am
roland1 wroteYup.

Anyone have an opinion on which DAW handles MIDI the best, timing wise?

On a related note, Sonar Platinum is now free to download. True story.


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by Jemusic on Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:59 am
roland1 wroteAnyone have an opinion on which DAW handles MIDI the best, timing wise?


Do not download Sonar Platinum for its midi timing. Its one of the worst out there. Studio One (apart from the issues in this thread) is excellent timing wise. Ableton is also excellent. One of the best.

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by brundle-fly on Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:21 pm
Jemusic wrote
roland1 wroteAnyone have an opinion on which DAW handles MIDI the best, timing wise?


Do not download Sonar Platinum for its midi timing. Its one of the worst out there.


Horsepucky. And negative MIDI timing offsets work perfectly in Cakewalk by Bandlab, BTW. ;^)

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by Jemusic on Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:28 pm
Sonar's midi timing gets effected when under high audio load. (to external synths that is) Studio One's does not.

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by brundle-fly on Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:46 am
Jemusic wroteSonar's midi timing gets effected when under high audio load. (to external synths that is) Studio One's does not.


...or so you've claimed for years. I'm still waiting for a project the demos the issue:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/Timing-questi ... px#2230884

Even If there was some issue back in 2011, it wouldn't be right to continue trashing the current release without retesting... especially since it's free. ;^)

I eagerly await your results.

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by Nip on Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:03 am
Jemusic wroteSonar's midi timing gets effected when under high audio load. (to external synths that is) Studio One's does not.


Seems just like a general assumption - and maybe flooding usb root hub busses with audio it might be true. Natural consequence that something has to give.

I ran Sonar 2005-2016 and ran internal RME cards and never discovered anything like that.

I recently even tested Sonar Artist 2015 when I was puzzled over different length of notes from eDrum engine and noticed no difference in Sonar and StudioOne. I thought each note was gated to be the same duration, but seems I was wrong. Either way - daw is not to blame for this.

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by Jemusic on Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:16 am
It was not a matter of where notes ended up after recording but how they all played out in real time to external synths. For example playing over 8 midi out ports and feeding a lot of external instruments. (on multiple channels) This could be all quantised data. All note ONs exactly correct. Note lengths all Ok as well. Everything could look perfect in the piano roll. It's what you actually heard that counted.

I am not referring to virtual instruments here either, only external.

USB hubs had nothing to do with this either. My audio interfaces back then were PCI (and still are today) and therefore had nothing to do with midi timing.

Sonar's midi clock timing was linked to the audio clock timing which was bad design in my opinion. I definitely heard it under certain conditions. As a drummer I am very sensitive to timing. Maybe others failed to hear it. It was quite subtle at times and very obvious at other times. No general assumption about it.

Studio One's timing to external synths is stable no matter what else is going on with the audio side of the program. (Caveat though. My current USB midi interface is fed from a PCI USB card though, nothing to do with any other USB devices. This may be a requirement)

Anyway we are all here now and on Studio One it seems so talking about Sonar is actually irrelevant.

Back on topic. Studio One has an issue with negative delays and hopefully we will get it fixed.

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by Nip on Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:42 am
Jemusic wroteIt was not a matter of where notes ended up after recording but how they all played out in real time to external synths.

Studio One's timing to external synths is stable no matter what else is going on with the audio side of the program.



A physical loopback test with midi cable could reveal how it is with external timing. Just re-record that midi again and see how it is placed compared to original.

That could eliminate subtle hearing or not - and give evidence.

I never used more than 15 ms negative delay to compensate response time of external gear - but maybe it is there already and then obvious at higher delays.

I don't use external arpeggiators often - so never tested how midi clock works that is sent out from StudioOne and using negative midi track delay - got a sense this can become awkward, Better to compensate and nudge final audio instead for this particular reason.

Some special treatment is done when a track goes to midi port and not a VSTi - in that no channel in console shows up. That opens up for other discrepancies regarding external gear and VSTi stuff. StudioOne has always been targeting VSTi more than external gear in what issues I had with v2.x etc.

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by brundle-fly on Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:18 pm
Jemusic wroteAnyway we are all here now and on Studio One it seems so talking about Sonar is actually irrelevant.


The question was asked what other DAWs have good MIDI timing, presumably with the goal of having access to a solid MIDI timing offset function until Studio One gets fixed.

I'm simply trying to point out that Cakewalk does, in fact, fill that bill as well as anything, contrary to your oft-repeated claims that it doesn't - claims that remain unsupported by any concrete evidence to this day.

All I'm saying is that no one should hesitate to try it to address this need or any other need not addressed by Studio One.

Regards,
Dave

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by alexpfeffer on Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:56 am
Can confirm this!

I am aware it sounds a bit like drama, but this bug makes it impossible to work with, especially newer orchestral libs with lots of necessary scripting involved.

Luckily everything sounds alright when rendering, but working like this is almost impossible, especially with a big orchestra setup.

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