111 postsPage 5 of 6
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The problem here is that it is audible, no question. This is not actually a you cannot hear this because the artifacts are too soft and being masked situation. I thought that too at first but have since changed my mind on it.

Once you remove the tone on this test they become very obvious. And then when you put the tone back in, you can still hear them. They are the sort of artifacts that are spread around the test tone and they sound like a little low end rasping sound.

I have Ableton and that is clean doing the same fade. This does need to be fixed and as I have already said they are looking into it.

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by Morticia on Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:49 am
I have been unable to replicate this issue in Studio One 3.5.6 x64
I got exactly the same behaviour as in Cakewalk by Bandlab (latest build)
Perhaps I am missing something ? :

Environment
    Windows 8.1 Pro x64
    Studio One 3.5.6 x64
    Fresh song created 48k / 24 bit, 120 bpm
    Presonus Spectrum Analyser plug-in
    Vengengence Scope CM version plug-in
    Test 1KHz sine wave wav file (48k / 24 bit) downloaded from Admiral Bumblebee website

Steps:
    Create stereo track
    Insert sine wave wav file
    Create 1 bar fade

Result
    Unable to hear any audio artefacts
    No sign of any low level frequencies in either analysing plug-in
    Similar result in Cakewalk DAW (only used Vengence Scope in this case)

Perhaps, I have misunderstood the steps to recreate ?

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by AndySweet on Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:01 pm
Jemusic wrote
This does need to be fixed and as I have already said they are looking into it.


Brilliant ! Does the 4.1.4 contain anything regarding this ?
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by Jemusic on Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:44 pm
To Andy, no this update does not include a fix for this. It might take them a little time to sort out.

To Morticia, you are doing something wrong. I just tested this in Studio One V3.5.6 and got the same result. The spectrum analyser should be put in the main stereo outs as well. For me it clearly shows the artefacts that are generated at the start of the fade.

What you also need to do is notch out the tone. Insert a Pro EQ in the stereo out buss before the spectrum meter. Set it for a steep notch at the test frequency e.g. 440 Hz. Highest Q here and min gain. If you duplicate this EQ straight after the first one you will get an even deeper notch.

Now at the start of the fade you will hear the artefacts. Once you get to know the sound of them they can be heard even with the tone present.

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by Morticia on Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:59 am
Jemusic wroteTo Morticia, you are doing something wrong. I just tested this in Studio One V3.5.6 and got the same result. The spectrum analyser should be put in the main stereo outs as well. For me it clearly shows the artefacts that are generated at the start of the fade.

What you also need to do is notch out the tone. Insert a Pro EQ in the stereo out buss before the spectrum meter. Set it for a steep notch at the test frequency e.g. 440 Hz. Highest Q here and min gain. If you duplicate this EQ straight after the first one you will get an even deeper notch.

Now at the start of the fade you will hear the artefacts. Once you get to know the sound of them they can be heard even with the tone present.

Thanks for the clarification :thumbup:
The Spectrum Meter and Vengence Scope are on the master bus (it's the only place I ever use tools like these).
I think I know what you are saying now.
There are very audible artefacts almost a 'pop' at the beginning of the * event * rather than when the audio begins to fade in the final bar.
However, this disappears altogether when the fade is removed. Yes ?
This does not happen with Cakewalk.

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by niles on Fri May 24, 2019 11:15 pm
For those interested. With version 4.5 PreSonus managed to reduce the automation noise to a minimum.

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by patricemazmanian on Fri May 24, 2019 11:23 pm
niles wroteFor those interested. With version 4.5 PreSonus managed to reduce the automation noise to a minimum.

Thank you Nils,
This is probably the best addition in 4.5 ....

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by Lokeyfly on Sat May 25, 2019 3:49 am
niles wroteFor those interested. With version 4.5 PreSonus managed to reduce the automation noise to a minimum.

I still don't know what that means, and the whole thing was so ridiculously inaudable in the first place. Then again some people have more concerns over tire tread patterns than others and don't race cars for a living.

Here's what I'll do (like I did then), create a fade in and out at the loudest possible range my monitors (Mackie HR824's) can muster. Listen to ANY anomaly, ripple, phase, frequency, intemodulation distortion anomaly possible (as I hadn't heard before). Ill double check through my headphones. I won't check through a scope, and I will observe that any issue is so ridiculously below the level of any noise floor in my recordings, that no one would perceive its existance. I will wipe my hands and say "nope, no problems", and press on about my business.

Thx for rehashing an old thread few thoroughly missed, but I know. It's the thought that counts.

And whatever those improved numbers actually are (as we don't know), :roll:
it's probably a warm & comfy that it's better now. "Yay"

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by patricemazmanian on Sat May 25, 2019 4:24 am
On these files, you can hear the difference between SO 4.1.4 and SO 4.5.0
Especially on the Fade in
THANK YOU PRESONUS

Attachments
SO414-450_Fade.rar
(1.04 MiB) Downloaded 35 times

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by niles on Sun May 26, 2019 9:32 am
Lokeyfly wrote
niles wroteFor those interested. With version 4.5 PreSonus managed to reduce the automation noise to a minimum.

I still don't know what that means, and the whole thing was so ridiculously inaudable in the first place. Then again some people have more concerns over tire tread patterns than others and don't race cars for a living.

Here's what I'll do (like I did then), create a fade in and out at the loudest possible range my monitors (Mackie HR824's) can muster. Listen to ANY anomaly, ripple, phase, frequency, intemodulation distortion anomaly possible (as I hadn't heard before). Ill double check through my headphones. I won't check through a scope, and I will observe that any issue is so ridiculously below the level of any noise floor in my recordings, that no one would perceive its existance. I will wipe my hands and say "nope, no problems", and press on about my business.

Thx for rehashing an old thread few thoroughly missed, but I know. It's the thought that counts.

And whatever those improved numbers actually are (as we don't know), :roll:
it's probably a warm & comfy that it's better now. "Yay"
When I read crap like this it confirms to me I should rather make music in my spare time instead of writing tech reports!

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by robertgray3 on Sun May 26, 2019 9:43 am
niles wrote
Lokeyfly wrote
niles wroteFor those interested. With version 4.5 PreSonus managed to reduce the automation noise to a minimum.

I still don't know what that means, and the whole thing was so ridiculously inaudable in the first place. Then again some people have more concerns over tire tread patterns than others and don't race cars for a living.

Here's what I'll do (like I did then), create a fade in and out at the loudest possible range my monitors (Mackie HR824's) can muster. Listen to ANY anomaly, ripple, phase, frequency, intemodulation distortion anomaly possible (as I hadn't heard before). Ill double check through my headphones. I won't check through a scope, and I will observe that any issue is so ridiculously below the level of any noise floor in my recordings, that no one would perceive its existance. I will wipe my hands and say "nope, no problems", and press on about my business.

Thx for rehashing an old thread few thoroughly missed, but I know. It's the thought that counts.

And whatever those improved numbers actually are (as we don't know), :roll:
it's probably a warm & comfy that it's better now. "Yay"
When I read crap like this it confirms to me I should rather make music in my spare time instead of writing tech reports!


LOL :thumbup:

Thanks for the ppl that helped get this noticed and addressed. Just because some people didn't notice there was a problem before and don't notice that it was fixed isn't a reason to not report it. Although maybe it's a reason to not bother celebrating afterwards :D Much like the Kingsmen, no-one will ever know.

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by patricemazmanian on Sun May 26, 2019 9:52 am
niles wrote
Lokeyfly wrote
niles wroteFor those interested. With version 4.5 PreSonus managed to reduce the automation noise to a minimum.

I still don't know what that means, and the whole thing was so ridiculously inaudable in the first place. Then again some people have more concerns over tire tread patterns than others and don't race cars for a living.

Here's what I'll do (like I did then), create a fade in and out at the loudest possible range my monitors (Mackie HR824's) can muster. Listen to ANY anomaly, ripple, phase, frequency, intemodulation distortion anomaly possible (as I hadn't heard before). Ill double check through my headphones. I won't check through a scope, and I will observe that any issue is so ridiculously below the level of any noise floor in my recordings, that no one would perceive its existance. I will wipe my hands and say "nope, no problems", and press on about my business.

Thx for rehashing an old thread few thoroughly missed, but I know. It's the thought that counts.

And whatever those improved numbers actually are (as we don't know), :roll:
it's probably a warm & comfy that it's better now. "Yay"
When I read crap like this it confirms to me I should rather make music in my spare time instead of writing tech reports!

No it's another problem, sir doesn't hear anything ...

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by Lokeyfly on Sun May 26, 2019 2:17 pm
Not exactly the response I'd expect, so I won't even entertain that. Like your rebuttle, niles, it would not be within forum guidelines. I stated I didn't know what that means. That still holds true.

Jemusic wrote: You have got to put things into perspective. How loud the artefacts are compared to the signal. At very low levels the signal gets quiet and yes the artefacts may increase in relation to the signal. But after listening to the signal at a reference monitor volume e.g. 85 dB SPL what can you hear 50 dB down. Not much.


.....When you mouse over the signal at say -14 dB rms the artifacts are around -60 dB in my results. Even when the signal is down at -40 db the artefacts are still around -60. 20 dB lower at -40 dB. So it won't be very audible. If the signal is at 85 dB SPL at its normal volume in the room then when the signal is 40 dB down in the fade, it will only be at 45 dB SPL in the room. That is damn quiet. And the artefacts will be at 25 db SPL! (lower than the ambient noise level in your room!)

What this means is if you are automating at normal track reference levels and making changes of 3 to 6 db etc you are not going to hear any artifacts. End of story. He says you can hear it. In a blind test comparing various DAW's fading from a reference level (at 85 dB SPL) down to zero this guy would not have hope in hell.

I like Jemusic's take as others will add that it really is about what you hear or dont hear. With that, there is no right or wrong. I certainly wouldn't be name calling over this.

At times I test saturation with plugins that offer distortion, or check anything audable. I'll use a pure sign wave and run 3 frequencies of 100hz, 1khz, and 10khz.typically. Levels checked as well Findings vary, after all, its only for my own understanding. when I see an anomaly, I really can't share it with others because first of all, it's barely understood about those characteristics (even/odd harmonic content, etc. Secondly, it's a sine wave (as typically used in such testing). The world has little to do with pure sine waves, and even a few sine waves together off axis produce something very different sounding resulting in a more complex waveform, not to mention combined, start to mask the original wave, it's sound, it's timbre. Even with any DAW, fade ins/outs may enter different filtering to ensure optimum signal to noise, dithering etc. I'll leave such testing to " Admiral Bumblebee". The source of this finding. No doubt trying to bring attention to his beehive.

Sine wave testing for anomolies, and then reporting that? Lol. Quite a bit different than a vocal line, a jazzy Gibson 335, or a female vocal which is real world. Audio is quite a bit more complex than pure tones standing on their own. Multi track.those elements, and you soon find, condensation and rarefraction (the movement of molecules colliding through the air -i.e. "sound") changes things quite dramatically than your scope, and sinusoidal test tone.

Running single track fade ins, and outs of various sine waves isn't wrong. It probably can be answered in 3 words. "Does it matter?".

Hey, run more testing. Some will appreciate that. My position is for anyone really comcerned, its really not an issue 30 to 50dB's below a signal (3dB's = double the power of an amplifier).

I do appreciate your insight to many things niles. I'm adding another perspective which is not towards or against you, but the concern this is some actual issue.

I don't feel it is. Sorry that offends you. These type of threads cause more alarm than technical merit (isn't that right admiral bumblebee?).

Lawrence wrote: Long story short, if you're stressing over things that you can't hear, it's a waste of time. 
yeppers. That was in reference to those alarmed, not towards niles, I should clarify.

Peace.all. Now go make some awsome music. The world.could use it. ;)
Last edited by Lokeyfly on Sun May 26, 2019 2:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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by Jemusic on Sun May 26, 2019 2:25 pm
Jemusic wroteWell I have changed my tune as well. I agree with both Niles and Skaperverkert that this can be heard. And here is the way to really hear it. I have been trying to figure out a way to hear these artifacts,

2nd Sense Audio are giving away a free EQ. Here:

https://2ndsenseaudio.com/plugins/

Scroll right down to the bottom of the page for the free EQ. What is cool about this EQ is that in cut mode it can provide a max of 60 dB attenuation. Something that most EQ's cannot do. So notch out the tone. Set a single band for 440 Hz (or the exact frequency of your tone) and very steep Q and max attenuation. This EQ needs to be inserted on your main output mix, not on the track itself. (if its on the track you want hear anything at all, artifacts also get attenuated!)

Although the tone is still there it is super quiet now. What you will hear is the artefacts generated by the fade. You will need to crank your monitors though right up! Niles is also correct in that changing the buffer size also alters the sound of the noise at the fade. I still say that in most cases compared to the full signal level these artifacts are harder to hear. But once you do this notch test and you really start to hear them then you know what you are listening for.

I agree it should be fixed. Ableton is dead quiet with the fades as well. (note in the original video Ableton looks bad but he is very wrong on that. I am hearing nothing in terms of artifacts from Ableton in fact) My fades with the editor are also silent too.


I had that view at first and in many situations it would be masked for sure, but....I changed my view on this. Once you null out the tone you can hear the artifacts. Then when you put the tone back in you can still hear them. Because you now know what you are listening for. It's a sort of low end rasping type sound.

You can null it out as well with two instances of Pro EQ in series. Set them both for the same frequency and make the notches in both of them as steep as you can e.g. very high Q settings. This sound should not be present.

Under certain conditions too it could become very audible. If you had say a dozen tracks all making an automation move at once for example the sound could compound. Also when certain types of effects processing are used on these tracks the sound can become very audible.

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by Lokeyfly on Sun May 26, 2019 2:51 pm
Thanks Jeff. That is a constructive response, and as you did hone in on what you heard, you nulled it out. Clever!

I haven't heard any noises ramping, but like you, if I did, I would find a method to up root any issue. Perhaps automation instead ramping. Allows for much more detail, but yes ramping is easy and certainly functional.

I'll remove.your example if you like. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth (they were yours though :) ).

Any hey, let the thread go for 5 more pages. I can start some popcorn, and get some other stuff done.

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by Jemusic on Sun May 26, 2019 3:06 pm
Its OK to leave my initial response in actually because I was very skeptical at first for sure. But once I nulled the tone out, it is quite revealing what is left behind! And then I found once I put the tone back in I could hear it every time! Its not an obvious sound though for sure. And as the OP said too once you get to know its footprint it starts being easier to hear.

Also at the end of my last post, if you had multiple tracks doing this it may build up too. Also I think certain effects (e.g. distortion) can really emphasise it too.

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by Lokeyfly on Sun May 26, 2019 3:56 pm
Cool I respect that.

I'm going over any fades I've made. Nuttin' that's not to say they aren't there. Just saying I'm pretty much pressing my ear.against a seashell to hear the ocean, and its only the ocean (noise floor) i'm hearing. Haven't had a response of hearing grouped fades with pops. So I'll hold off and let the thread breathe. When I mastered, I was pretty anal about hearing well... anything bad. So perhaps it's during a period, or under some change. No fade issue here.

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by admiralbumblebee on Mon May 27, 2019 10:51 am
Lokeyfly wrote
It wouldn't be the first time someone on You tube was trying to raise interest towards their findings, or website.

Sorry, admiral bumblebee.


Hey, no problem.

But keep in mind that I have zero ads on my website, no paid content and I pay the hosting costs largely out of pocket (which get higher with each new person) with some help from donations.

I don't monetize my youtube videos either.

I also don't advertise any of my content other than a signature in forum posts (and I rarely post on forums).

I could be making a few grand a month from my content pretty easily based on my site views, but I don't. I don't care about that in the slightest. I also think it's dishonest for the very reason you imply. No matter how disciplined that I feel I am, the lure of making some extra cash by making something controversial will always sneak in. I don't allow that to be a factor.

I also spend ~5 hours a week going through past articles to update information in case someone stumbles on an old article. I don't want anyone finding old content and thinking that's the current state of life. In the event that I don't get to something in time, I also try to make sure version numbers and dates are clearly visible.

Basically all there is for me to gain here is a lighter wallet and a lot less free time to make music.


----

I also find the debate over 'does this matter' fairly strange. I clearly state in the article:

Should you care? Probably not. Is it interesting? I hope so.

Should you drop your favorite software over this? Very unlikely.


It's interesting. That's about it.

It's nice that some companies took it seriously though. :thumbup:

---

Ok, done being defensive. I can handle basically any criticism except the implication that I do any of this for some sort of personal gain.

I lose a lot doing this, and gain little else than a lot of people being upset with me. I just enjoy exploring these things because it's fun.

Thanks for the ideas and discussion folks. It makes me happy to see people looking into this on their own. You should never trust a youtuber. :thumbup:

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by jdurham on Mon May 27, 2019 11:11 am
Not happy. I can't believe this, it's totally audible. How many tracks did I deliver to clients with this crap in it. At least they fixed some of it for 4.5, but what else is in there? The automation accuracy problem is totally uncool. And I'm a big fan of Presonus, but currently very very very annoyed. Now my stuff won't even properly null out, can't trust the current algorithms. Sorry guys, I'm not happy.
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by sirmonkey on Mon May 27, 2019 4:06 pm
It seems like we're looking at a minuscule blemish that's being magnified.
I have a solution, though. Let's give our mixes and masters to Bob Katz, Dave Pesado...and a few other famous dudes.
Let's have them critique our results (without mentioning this supposed problem)

Let's see if they say "Gee, I hear some anomaly at -60db on those fad-outs"... or anything like that.
What are they chances that they, or anyone else, would ever, ever hear a problem?
And if they heard that, they would probably hear like a million other tiny problems, no matter how good the production is.

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