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My main problem with the situation is that files rendered with the old algorithm will not null out with files rendered with the new algorithm. And the difference is *audible*. This is to be expected if I change plugins, settings, something big, etc... but we're talking about something so basic as a FADE. Not to mention the big volume automation issue that has been confirmed (and reported) in another thread.

The issue isn't whether or not something sounds good... heck, I have mixes I did on an old beat up Mackie mixer and an old Tascam TSR-8 that sound pretty darn good, and I'll never mix it exactly that way again and it will never sound that way again... but that's to be expected.

The problem here is that in production (especially the kind I do with my clients), they expect that if I pull up a recent project to make one TINY change to a single vowel of a single word and re-render the mix, that the new file will be EXACTLY the same as the prior version I sent them, *except* for that tiny single vowel.

However, this is NOT the case with this issue, as they have changed the algorithm. It doesn't matter that it will sound "better" or "worse" overall. The problem is that it will sound audibly different. Okay, one might say, they improved it. Yes... and bravo for that. But in this case, now that it's been pointed out what's going on, I've listened to file comparisons, and it is indeed audible, and they aren't good artifacts. I didn't even need to turn up the volume and try to find the artifacts. They were sitting right there out in the open. That's too much to brush off IMO.

So let's disregard the artifacts as been good or bad, and just focus on the fact that they are audible. That means the audio renders are now different than before. Audibly different.

So the immediate impact is not whether or not it "sounds better" to some legendary mastering engineer or to one of my paying clients who could choose other people to work with but chose me because they trusted me. It's now that I'm sending them an audibly different mix. I couldn't guarantee that I'm sending them the same file after rendering with 4.5 vs. 4.1!

And on top of that we have the 4.5 volume automation issue that is so clearly out of whack, that anything with any kind of extensive volume automation will sound *significantly* different between 4.1 and 4.5. It's clearly way more serious than the artifacts were in 4.1

So it doesn't matter what Bob Katz or Dave Pesado say, you'll basically be sending them THREE different mixes between 4.1, 4.5, and the patch that's coming up to fix 4.5! So if they suggest tweaking a mix, what are you going to do? Reinstall 4.1? Reinstall 4.5? Just tell them that their ears are playing game with them? Tell them to forget about the one you sent last week, and start over with their critique? What do you tell a client that notices? They might not notice. But they might. I had a client recently that was noticing the most minute details that even I didn't notice... he would be all over this, and thank goodness I closed that project out already. That's why this is a problem. The core functionality -- the core algorithms -- have to be consistent and predictable.

You can't change something so basic as a fade with *audible* artifacts (whether or not those artifacts were pleasing or beneficial or terrible and nasty), then clean that up, then blow up volume automation, all in a short while and expect us to deliver professional, consistent results... if you can get away with that, good for you. But I'd rather not have to tell a client, "yeah, they changed the algorithm again."

In fact, it might have been nice for Presonus to leave the the old artifact behavior as an option so we could at least null out our renders for old projects. As in, have a "legacy fade algorithm" buried in the settings so we could 100% trust the renders to null. As it is now, the release notes for 4.5 appear to only say, under "The following issues have been fixed: Artifacts with volume automation" - what does that even mean? And actually, they INTRODUCED all new and even worse problems with volume automation (see the other thread).

Just my two bits. And no, it's not the end of the world. It's just software. And yes, this was a very long forum post, lol. :D Cheers!
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by sirmonkey on Mon May 27, 2019 6:13 pm
jdurham wroteMy main problem with the situation is that files rendered with the old algorithm will not null out with files rendered with the new algorithm. And the difference is *audible*. This is to be expected if I change plugins, settings, something big, etc... but we're talking about something so basic as a FADE.....
Just my two bits. And no, it's not the end of the world. It's just software. And yes, this was a very long forum post, lol. :D Cheers!

So, is the render in 4.5 failing to null across a whole track, or whole project? Or just in the areas where fades occur?
Perhaps a naive question, but if you didn't know that things didn't null 100%, would you notice a problem?
*I get that quite often, small details can be very important.
But if the problem was improved, or fixed, then a ver 4.1 render and a ver 4.5 render shouldn't null out. Right?

Atari 5200, 64K RAM S1PRO Radio Shack Cassette Recorder w/internal Mic, and too many plugins.
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by admiralbumblebee on Mon May 27, 2019 6:34 pm
sirmonkey wrote
jdurham wroteMy main problem with the situation is that files rendered with the old algorithm will not null out with files rendered with the new algorithm. And the difference is *audible*. This is to be expected if I change plugins, settings, something big, etc... but we're talking about something so basic as a FADE.....
Just my two bits. And no, it's not the end of the world. It's just software. And yes, this was a very long forum post, lol. :D Cheers!

So, is the render in 4.5 failing to null across a whole track, or whole project? Or just in the areas where fades occur?
Perhaps a naive question, but if you didn't know that things didn't null 100%, would you notice a problem?
*I get that quite often, small details can be very important.
But if the problem was improved, or fixed, then a ver 4.1 render and a ver 4.5 render shouldn't null out. Right?


For what it's worth, I noticed this problem by ear, which is the whole reason why began working on the video.

The pre-4.5 distortion is audible in certain cases, but once you know what to listen for it's hard to not hear it.

I definitely agree that the automation distortion ("fixed" in 4.5) was a pretty minor thing. Yes, you can hear it if you know what to listen for, but does it matter that much? Meh.

The 4.5 automation issue is extremely audible, and it's what triggered me to make the new video checking out other products. I originally was planning on a Studio One 4.5 coverage article this week instead.

As jdurham said, there will now be 3 versions of Studio One that will render projects audibly different depending on the version.

Not only that, but I suggest trying the automation test I laid out and start playback at different positions. Render different selections. The starting point of the render changes the output!

So this is definitely a big deal I think.

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by sirmonkey on Mon May 27, 2019 9:32 pm
I just did a test on ver4.5, and.....I'll be damned! :x I didn't notice any problem with 4.1 or before, but there is a real problem in 4.5 for sure. Not a tiny one either...ruining my "healthy" skepticism!
Here's what I did:
1. I recorded a bass guitar note, chopped one sample, duplicated and reversed it, and duplicated the pair- making a 6 second loop. No clicks or pops- just a steady hum when looped. No clicks at loop end/start. Just a steady drone with no volume fluctuation.
2. Then I added fades, and some up & down volume automation.
3. Used "Duplicate Track-Complete" for an exact copy. I phase-flipped the copy, and everything nulled just fine at that point. So far, so good- but not much proven yet...
4. I then put the polarity of the duplicate copy back to normal, and rendered it down.
5. Played original along with the rendered copy, with the phase of the copy flipped again.

Result when looped: A perfect null. No clicks, pops, or artifacts. No smoke, no fire.
So back to the forum to report my findings so far, and then a little "click". Uh oh... !
Well, maybe a small issue...then a little "zip....zip". Well, not a "zip" sound exactly....but at the points where the volume goes up and down, it sounded like actual physical faders being slid. Not loud, but definitely not O.K. And then, all of a sudden, the original buzzy sound of the loop played back in the area where the automation was at zero gain (In my test loop, the volume ramps down, stays level at 0db for a second or so, then ramps up, and then back to 0db).
It didn't it all the time, either. When looped, everything stayed silent about half the time, maybe a little more. About 2/5 to 1/2 the time, a small click and/or a "slider" sound when the faders moved. And once every 7 or 8 iterations of the loop, the original sound played at near full volume for about 1/2 of a second.

I was reading this post just for interest, but also a bit "just in case". So, I see that in ver 4.5, there's a real problem at the moment.

Atari 5200, 64K RAM S1PRO Radio Shack Cassette Recorder w/internal Mic, and too many plugins.
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by Jemusic on Mon May 27, 2019 10:06 pm
Confusion here. Which automation issue are people talking about here. There are two. One is a fade over 2 seconds. That noise has been cleared now in 4.5. I have tested this again pretty thoroughly in 4.5 and I cannot see or hear any artifacts. Null tests are not correct here either. The best way to hear the artifacts is to null out the tone completely and listen to what remains behind. It is there in 4.1.4

The second is when the automation drops instantly from max level to silence and then back up from silence to max level. That issue is still broken in 4.5 and has been reported and will be fixed shortly I imagine.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by sirmonkey on Mon May 27, 2019 10:29 pm
Jemusic wroteConfusion here. Which automation issue are people talking about here. There are two. One is a fade over 2 seconds. That noise has been cleared now in 4.5. I have tested this again pretty thoroughly in 4.5 and I cannot see or hear any artifacts. Null tests are not correct here either. The best way to hear the artifacts is to null out the tone completely and listen to what remains behind. It is there in 4.1.4

The second is when the automation drops instantly from max level to silence and then back up from silence to max level. That issue is still broken in 4.5 and has been reported and will be fixed shortly I imagine.


Confusion for sure! Anyway, fades seem O.K here. But volume automation of the faders seems off. (This post and my last are all in ver4.5, and not comparing to 4.1, just to avoid more confusion)
And it doesn't seem to be just when going from max volume to silent, and then back to max.
I repeated my test by automating volume with Mixtool instead of automating the faders.
The original loop of constant volume was automated so that the volume peaked at about -12db, and the lowest volume was about -48db. When playing the original against a phase-flipped, rendered copy, the original sound "leaks" through, reaching about -36db.
Is there a flaw in how I'm testing this? After all, a duplicate copy, when phase flipped, cancels out perfectly. But a rendered copy doesn't. And it isn't subtle. But if I'm goofing something up, let me know.

Atari 5200, 64K RAM S1PRO Radio Shack Cassette Recorder w/internal Mic, and too many plugins.
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by Jemusic on Mon May 27, 2019 10:51 pm
I thought you were talking about the original issue of artifacts being generated over a slow fade. That seems to be OK now. What I meant by null testing being hard for that test is it is difficult to get two automation fades perfectly timed, one with the artifacts and the other without.

The other current issue in 4.5 we know about. And the devs do too. (instant volume changes not being so instant) There is not much more to say on this other than we just have to be patient and wait for the update that will fix it. And as it works in 4.1.4 and even in 3.5, obviously it something that can be corrected.

If you are currently working on a project that requires super fast automation changes the best thing to do right now until the fix, is revert back to 4.1.4. It is very easy to do. Even if you have over written your previous 4.1.4 install. Just download 4.1.4 again and install into a different folder. (Unless you still have 4.1.4 installed and have installed 4.5 into a separate folder)

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by sirmonkey on Mon May 27, 2019 11:09 pm
O.K. -I trust that all will be well relatively soon.
I was wondering if the 2 issues had the same root cause, because they both involve some sort of automated gain change. But of course, this is not necessarily so. In any event, as long as the developers know about it, I'm sure they'll get everything fixed.
Now, for my next test in ver4.5.... I'm just going to use it as I normally would. I really like the new features a lot. If I come across a problem, I'll go ahead and use 4.1.
* Presonus has done a very good thing by making it easy to use the previous version if the need arises.

Atari 5200, 64K RAM S1PRO Radio Shack Cassette Recorder w/internal Mic, and too many plugins.
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by bassfx on Tue May 28, 2019 8:37 am
sirmonkey wrote
jdurham wroteMy main problem with the situation is that files rendered with the old algorithm will not null out with files rendered with the new algorithm. And the difference is *audible*. This is to be expected if I change plugins, settings, something big, etc... but we're talking about something so basic as a FADE.....
Just my two bits. And no, it's not the end of the world. It's just software. And yes, this was a very long forum post, lol. :D Cheers!

So, is the render in 4.5 failing to null across a whole track, or whole project? Or just in the areas where fades occur?
Perhaps a naive question, but if you didn't know that things didn't null 100%, would you notice a problem?
*I get that quite often, small details can be very important.
But if the problem was improved, or fixed, then a ver 4.1 render and a ver 4.5 render shouldn't null out. Right?


The situation -- to put it bluntly -- is a total mess when comparing files rendered with 4.1 vs. 4.5. Not only are things not nulling due to the fade artifact issue (which is minor but still audible), but the files are not nulling far more dramatically when there is any serious amount of volume automation. The fade artifact issue, which is what this thread is about, again, is comparatively minor but still important to be aware of. The new 4.5 volume automation behavior, which is discussed in more detail in another thread and already reported to Presonus, is *very* significant.

The *combination* of the two changes in 4.5 make for a total mess TBH. It causes significant, and frankly unacceptable rendering results comparing 4.1 to 4.5.

The amount of difference in your file will vary based on how you use fades and volume automation. My projects tend to be very complex with many tracks, tons of edits, and lots of automation. Therefore, files rendered in 4.5 sound clearly and noticeably (and unacceptably) different, and in some cases, very, very wrong, due to the significant lag with the volume automation. Basically a disaster, and unusable for me at this point, until there is a fix. Fortunately, I did not deliver any renders to clients with 4.5, which would have been pretty embarrassing TBH.

The only solution for people who use any amount of volume automation is basically to roll back to 4.1 and wait for the 4.5 fix. If volume automation is NOT important to you at all, then just stick with 4.5. It's a great update besides this one big bug.

And again, there are two issues -- apologies if I contributed to any confusion for people not following both threads and knowing which issue is what. The other thread is located here:

viewtopic.php?f=151&t=35090

Good luck! And all the best to the Presonus developers. Hope they solve this asap.
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by Skaperverket on Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:38 am
Happy to see that this issue was solved. Great job! Thanks to everyone who helped out finding, confirming, reporting and fixing it!
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by Skaperverket on Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:09 am
Did anyone test if this automation noise was fixed for the MixTool plug-in as well? Thanks!

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