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Hi --
I've run into a problem when using VCA channels.
Automating volume at the track level, bus level, moving VCA faders and Channel faders ...
the system appears to get overwhelmed.

Volumes on tracks that I have been attempting to automate drop suddenly when I hit the space bar to stop.
Volumes don't always play back as expected. Volume can start out at the level I expect when I stop and restart, but then when I stop again, channel fader in arrange view drops suddenly, fader in console doesn't move, and playback volume may or may not be affected.
In addition, while trying to edit automation on a Bus channel (inserting points with my mouse during playback) volume drops suddenly, while the line and the faders stay put.
Some of these changes get recorded in the History, some don't. Undoing changes sometimes restores levels and sometimes it doesn't.

Has anyone else had this trouble?
I'm on Windows 10.

I am currently trying to make a song file that will show the same behavior consistently with fewer tracks and plug ins.
: )

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by jpettit on Tue May 29, 2018 1:50 pm
lisarowe wroteHi --

1) I've run into a problem when using VCA channels. Automating volume at the track level, bus level, moving VCA faders and Channel faders ...

2) Vollumes on tracks that I have been attempting to automate drop suddenly when I hit the space bar to stop.

3) Volumes don't always play back as expected.

4) Volume can start out at the level I expect when I stop and restart, but then when I stop again, channel fader in arrange view drops suddenly, fader in console doesn't move, and playback volume may or may not be affected.

5) In addition, while trying to edit automation on a Bus channel (inserting points with my mouse during playback) volume drops suddenly, while the line and the faders stay put.

6) Some of these changes get recorded in the History, some don't.

7) Undoing changes sometimes restores levels and sometimes it doesn't.

I'm on Windows 10.

8) I am currently trying to make a song file that will show the same behavior consistently with fewer tracks and plug ins.
: )

It sounds like you are having an issue with automation across the board.
Make sure you understand the states of automation. ( read touch latch and write)

Please use Jing to capture you screen video while you demonstrate the issue and attach the URL Here.

See link at bottom of this post fro Jing.
viewtopic.php?f=151&t=17142

Add your specs in your signature see signature for a link.

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by lisarowe on Tue May 29, 2018 2:28 pm
Just read all of the material in the manual. There is a lot of stuff that just isn't covered.

First let me fact check...
Is this an expected behavior?

Image

Hopefully you can read the note. Fader level shows the sum of the envelope/lane number plus the VCA level in both Arrange and Console Views.
Faders snapped to these settings after I started playback after dragging the insert point with my mouse.

Image

Edit to say: I need to figure out how to imbed images better, obviously. Google Drive usually works.
: )

https://drive.google.com/open?id=16ol94 ... CE9kHVUzJ6
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Lq63l ... kSF3yp1xSc

(An actual book with a real index -- that would be priceless! But that's a topic for another thread. Almost tempted to volunteer to write it myself.)

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by jpettit on Tue May 29, 2018 6:42 pm
Still difficult to follow your process and or issue.

Pictures have to end with a picture type like .png io .gif to be embedded.
Again suggest making a screenshot movie to explain your questions.

Please read the links I have sent to several times on how to report an issue.

Thanks for adding your signature but you might want to as tour audio interface to your specs for the future.

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by lisarowe on Tue May 29, 2018 8:24 pm
Pictures have to end with a picture type like .png io .gif to be embedded.
Again suggest making a screenshot movie to explain your questions.


Yes, pictures are .png's I uploaded them to my Google drive and pasted a link in between the bracket when they appeared in my post.

I've never made a video before today. I have have done so now, but need to troubleshoot the process.

The user interface for this particular site is less obvious than some others I have used.

Please read the links I have sent to several times on how to report an issue.

Thanks for adding your signature but you might want to as tour audio interface to your specs for the future.


I have read your links several times. They might not be as clear as you think they are.
And I will put my audio interface in my sig file, but I'm not using it for any of this.

The videos are made with the GIF program. I have the trial version of the other one and I will be happy to figure out how to use it because the GIF thing seems less than adequate to the task. But it's going to take some time.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1htp5G ... hFvgB4NZU_

This the link to the video I uploaded.
It shows the volume dropping when I insert a point on the volume envelope/lane.
I don't think there is any sound, though.

Shareable links have always worked. What's different here?
: )

Links to png's again
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Lq63l ... kSF3yp1xSc
https://drive.google.com/open?id=16ol94 ... CE9kHVUzJ6

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by jpettit on Tue May 29, 2018 8:56 pm
Sorry, let’s start over.

We can view your pictures via the links.
The URL has to end with a picture extension to be embed.
Yours don’t.

I have seen two pictures and a very short clip but in both cases we have no idea what your are trying to communicate.

Let’s try it this way.

Fill out this template please;

Issue:

Steps to reproduce the issue;
1)
2)
3)
Etc.

Expected results:


Actual results:

Then we try the same steps.

Thanks.

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by Bbd on Wed May 30, 2018 7:10 am
Jeff's request to show us your steps will be helpful if you can provide those.

To recap your issue, you are saying that when you are using tracks with channels assigned to VCAs (or not), when you edit Volume data for a specific track, the audio volume changes randomly as you edit. This random change has nothing to do with your edits.
This change in volume is not shown in the Edit Undo list.
Did I get that right?

Please also create a new song and use one instrument track assigned to a VCA and then test by creating and editing Volume for it and see if you can reproduce this on a very simple level.

Thanks.

Bbd

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by lisarowe on Wed May 30, 2018 11:15 am
Bbd wroteJeff's request to show us your steps will be helpful if you can provide those.

I will do my best. I've been working on video capture today, never did it before. I realize I will probably need to integrate a script and talk as I'm doing these things. I understand the process, just need to work out the details.

To recap your issue, you are saying that when you are using tracks with channels assigned to VCAs (or not), when you edit Volume data for a specific track, the audio volume changes randomly as you edit. This random change has nothing to do with your edits.
This change in volume is not shown in the Edit Undo list.
Did I get that right?

I've been editing volume data on folders assigned to a VCA.
The changes are always random drops in level.
The change does not appear in the Edit Undo list.
This is the essence of the problem.

Please also create a new song and use one instrument track assigned to a VCA and then test by creating and editing Volume for it and see if you can reproduce this on a very simple level.

I was doing that yesterday.

1) I created a file with three tracks, a VCA and automation. Results normal, I think.

Believe this to be a problem with nested folders or complicated routing, I built up the test in a similar way to my 'broken' large song file.

2) I added folders, routed them to the VCA and automated folder volume. Results normal, I think. (this is what the pictures were supposed to be representing.)

This is the video I just created to show me interacting with the 'normal' file. PLEASE critique the video to tell me how you would like the presentation to go.
If you would prefer my test to go in a different direction, I will be happy to do that also.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xNPrA ... E5D3e5f5Q_

The GIF movie I put up yesterday shows the problem happening in the 'broken' file.

Thanks.

Your welcome. And thank you to Jeff. I'm sorry I frustrated him.

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by lisarowe on Wed May 30, 2018 11:45 am
jpettit wroteSorry, let’s start over.

We can view your pictures via the links.
The URL has to end with a picture extension to be embed.
Yours don’t.

Good to know. I will work on getting them to embed if it is important to you.

I have seen two pictures and a very short clip but in both cases we have no idea what your are trying to communicate.

I'm sorry we have to troubleshoot my process. I appreciate your patience.

The GIF video shows the problem happening in my large 'broken' file. One mouse click on the folder's automation, inserts a point, and then the volume drops when I hit the space bar to stop playback.

The line and point does not move, but the volume fader on the bus track does. Also, the pale grey line showing the VCA level drops. The VCA fader does not move.
All I did was insert a point, I didn't actually change anything.

What you can't see is that when I repeated the action:
start playback w/spacebar
insert point
stop playback w/spacebar

the folder volume fader drops again and I still haven't changed anything.

Let’s try it this way.

Fill out this template please;

Issue:

Steps to reproduce the issue;
1)
2)
3)
Etc.

Expected results:


Actual results:

Then we try the same steps.

I don't have a list of steps to reproduce yet.
I know this is what you need.
I am attempting to create a file and a list of reproducible steps.
The error did not occur in my simple file from yesterday.

Thanks.

You're welcome.
I tried the other screen capture software today. Video link in the post just above this one. It's not showing a problem. Although, if you spot one, let me know.
: )

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by jpettit on Wed May 30, 2018 11:49 am
lisarowe wroteThis is the essence of the problem.
I've been editing volume data on folders assigned to a VCA.
The changes are always random drops in level.
The change does not appear in the Edit Undo list. <== actually another issue but lets not get sidetracked ;-)

Tests so far:
I believe this to be a problem with nested folders or complicated routing, I built up the test in a similar way to my 'broken' large song file.
1) I created a file with three tracks, a VCA and automation. Results normal, I think.
2) I added folders, routed them to the VCA and automated folder volume.
3) PLEASE critique the video to tell me how you would like the presentation to go.
If you would prefer my test to go in a different direction, I will be happy to do that also.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1xNPrA ... E5D3e5f5Q_
The GIF movie I put up yesterday shows the problem happening in the 'broken' file.

You're not frustrating me. ;-)
I am just trying to communicate the absolute simplest way to convey an issue in order to help us get to the solution.

It sounds like we are still hunting which is fine.
a) If your first guess is nested folder then let's build a simple song with nested folders and a VCA assigned.
b) If your second guess is nested buses then let's build a simple song with nested buses and a VCA assigned.
c) it could be a combination of (a) and (b)
d) it could also be "merging" of VCA signals to existing track automation causes and conflict or competition with each other.

The video is much better now that we know your hypothesis and what you are trying to demonstrate
Let's not worry about pictures r videos until the issue is in sight.
Oh, also did it do this in 3.x?

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by lisarowe on Wed May 30, 2018 4:58 pm
jpettit wroteIt sounds like we are still hunting which is fine.
a) If your first guess is nested folder then let's build a simple song with nested folders and a VCA assigned.
b) If your second guess is nested buses then let's build a simple song with nested buses and a VCA assigned.
c) it could be a combination of (a) and (b)
d) it could also be "merging" of VCA signals to existing track automation causes and conflict or competition with each other.

The video is much better now that we know your hypothesis and what you are trying to demonstrate
Let's not worry about pictures r videos until the issue is in sight.
Oh, also did it do this in 3.x?


Thank you.

I can start with the absolute negatives...

c) it is certainly a combination not mentioned here. There are no folders that are not assigned to a bus anywhere in my 'broken' song or in my simple song.

d) I've never performed a "Merge" on automation in any project to date. And I have never automated a VCA channel.

Think functional programming. Nested loops make sense and so do function calls. I don't necessarily think of folders/buses/channels this way, but the mixing process occupies the same place in my brain, if that makes sense. My work flow began to reflect that right away when I started using Studio One last year.
So, it seems my trouble shooting thought process kind of follows a programming model that seems logical to me because of it.

My simple song investigation went as follows...

1 -- I started with three drum tracks and a VCA. Apply random automation to all three tracks. Result: no issues.
2 -- I put the two room tracks into a Room folder and assigned it to a bus and routed that to the VCA. Took automation off Kick. Left automation on one of the Room tracks. Applied random automation on Room folder.
Result: no issues.
3 -- Next thought: having an FX send 'around' the VCA. I added a Reverb FX. Added a send from both the Kick track and the Room Bus to the Reverb. Reverb and VCA both heading to Main.
No issues.

Now we get to the point where I think trouble might start because my problem started with automating volume on a Folder Bus being routed to a VCA.

4 -- I added a folder bus (called Drum Kit). Route that to the VCA. This is the version you see in this AMs Snagit video. Applied random automation with trim and by inserting points.
I did not change the Reverb sends.
No issues.

Because I believe that routing might be a factor, I added another layer according to my general workflow.

5 -- Drum Kit gets routed to an ALL Percussion Bus (that IS NOT a folder). Quick check automating Drum Kit.
No issues.

6 -- ALL PERC and Reverb get routed to a MIX BUS. Check automation changes on Drum Kit. No issues.

These are all of the nests in place now.

In my 'broken' song, I never automated fader levels on the ALL buses or the FX channels.

My next step was going to be adding a guitar track and similar routing up through to the MIX BUS.

There are no plugins except for the Reveb channel. I put a Multiband Compressor on Main to tone down the highs for my ear fatigue -- this isn't about what it sounds like, right? And there are Level Meters and a Limiter on Main. Better view of information and protecting myself from stupidity down the road. (Reverb chain: Room Reverb, a Pro-EQ, and a Compressor set up as a sidechain for the lead vocal (a preset).)

If I've made a mistake and you reproduce all of those steps, you might see the problem before I do because you have a much better idea of how the software works.
: )

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by lisarowe on Wed May 30, 2018 5:08 pm
jpettit wroteOh, also did it do this in 3.x?

No.
First thing I did after I got my license back was to go to a 3.5 version of the song and add VCAs
That was the only major difference.
Everything works fine.
: )

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by jpettit on Thu May 31, 2018 12:08 am
lisarowe wrote
jpettit wroteIt sounds like we are still hunting which is fine.
a) If your first guess is nested folder then let's build a simple song with nested folders and a VCA assigned.
b) If your second guess is nested buses then let's build a simple song with nested buses and a VCA assigned.
c) it could be a combination of (a) and (b)
d) it could also be "merging" of VCA signals to existing track automation causes and conflict or competition with each other.

The video is much better now that we know your hypothesis and what you are trying to demonstrate
Let's not worry about pictures r videos until the issue is in sight.
Oh, also did it do this in 3.x?




Thank you.

I can start with the absolute negatives...

c) it is certainly a combination not mentioned here. There are no folders that are not assigned to a bus anywhere in my 'broken' song or in my simple song.

d) I've never performed a "Merge" on automation in any project to date. And I have never automated a VCA channel.

Think functional programming. Nested loops make sense and so do function calls. I don't necessarily think of folders/buses/channels this way, but the mixing process occupies the same place in my brain, if that makes sense. My work flow began to reflect that right away when I started using Studio One last year.
So, it seems my trouble shooting thought process kind of follows a programming model that seems logical to me because of it.

My simple song investigation went as follows...

1 -- I started with three drum tracks and a VCA. Apply random automation to all three tracks. Result: no issues.
2 -- I put the two room tracks into a Room folder and assigned it to a bus and routed that to the VCA. Took automation off Kick. Left automation on one of the Room tracks. Applied random automation on Room folder.
Result: no issues.
3 -- Next thought: having an FX send 'around' the VCA. I added a Reverb FX. Added a send from both the Kick track and the Room Bus to the Reverb. Reverb and VCA both heading to Main.
No issues.

Now we get to the point where I think trouble might start because my problem started with automating volume on a Folder Bus being routed to a VCA.

4 -- I added a folder bus (called Drum Kit). Route that to the VCA. This is the version you see in this AMs Snagit video. Applied random automation with trim and by inserting points.
I did not change the Reverb sends.
No issues.

Because I believe that routing might be a factor, I added another layer according to my general workflow.

5 -- Drum Kit gets routed to an ALL Percussion Bus (that IS NOT a folder). Quick check automating Drum Kit.
No issues.

6 -- ALL PERC and Reverb get routed to a MIX BUS. Check automation changes on Drum Kit. No issues.

These are all of the nests in place now.

In my 'broken' song, I never automated fader levels on the ALL buses or the FX channels.

My next step was going to be adding a guitar track and similar routing up through to the MIX BUS.

There are no plugins except for the Reveb channel. I put a Multiband Compressor on Main to tone down the highs for my ear fatigue -- this isn't about what it sounds like, right? And there are Level Meters and a Limiter on Main. Better view of information and protecting myself from stupidity down the road. (Reverb chain: Room Reverb, a Pro-EQ, and a Compressor set up as a sidechain for the lead vocal (a preset).)

If I've made a mistake and you reproduce all of those steps, you might see the problem before I do because you have a much better idea of how the software works.
: )

On phone so can only give short replies.

The term nested or hierarchy is used when a folder
has a folder in it or a bus feeds a bus.

Bottom line is you have not yet similated the condition yet.

This means your first assumption were not quite right.
Some how you have two controls adjust one automation line.
Think about that.


Can you tell us exactly what is controlling the automation line that appears wrong?

Also another approach is process of elimination.
Make a copy of your song.
Remove things tracks, folders, busses etc until the problem goes away. When it does undo until the problem reappears then redo until the problem goes away then you are there.

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by lisarowe on Thu May 31, 2018 1:26 pm
The term nested or hierarchy is used when a folder
has a folder in it or a bus feeds a bus.

Indeed. So, logically, value from the first one will be modified by the next one, and so on, up the line.

Bottom line is you have not yet similated the condition yet.

Clearly. The issue is more complex than what I have done so far trying to recreate it.

Can you tell us exactly what is controlling the automation line that appears wrong?

Of course.

"Lead Vox" folder bus is being controlled by three things in parallel, theoretically.
1 -- Me, manipulating it directly.
2 -- "All Vox" VCA that I attached it to. Which I have moved, but has no automation.
3 -- "ALL VOX" BUS that has been its output since the dawn of time. This fader is set at zero with no automation.

Above that, everything routes to the MIX BUS. That fader is also at zero with no automation.

At any given point in the song, I expect the level of the Lead Vox Bus to be a value consistent with the level of my automation on that bus plus or minus the level of the VCA. At any time. Playing back or stopped.

I can understand a lag if I am manipulating either of those during playback.

Instead:
-- When I insert a point during playback, I hear a sudden drop in volume of the channel in the mix.
-- When I stop playback with the spacebar, the fader on the channel drops.
-- If I resume playback with the space bar without touching anything, everything sounds the same (i.e. the track is still playing at the volume that I didn't change) but the fader is out of sync.
-- If I touch anything (e.g. click on another lane or scroll a window) and then resume playback, I hear the 'new' lower fader volume of the channel in the mix.
-- there is no change recorded in the History.
-- the change does not respond to "Control Z"
-- if I undo other changes using the History window, results are inconsistent. Sometimes the original fader level will be restored and sometimes not.

-- if I resume playback without trying to undo the previous change AND haven't touched anything: If I add another point or try to delete the first point, the cycle repeats. An additional drop in volume, another change I can't 'undo.'

Also another approach is process of elimination.
Make a copy of your song.
Remove things tracks, folders, busses etc until the problem goes away. When it does undo until the problem reappears then redo until the problem goes away then you are there.

Core like an apple, peel like an onion or prune like a tree?
: )

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by jpettit on Thu May 31, 2018 2:01 pm
While you are peeling the apple I should have mentioned to you that the first thing is to submit a support ticket, then while waiting you can debug.

Support is paid to try to help you debug it.

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by lisarowe on Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:00 am
jpettit wroteWhile you are peeling the apple I should have mentioned to you that the first thing is to submit a support ticket, then while waiting you can debug.

Support is paid to try to help you debug it.


Thank you for your help, Jeff.
I received an email from the husband who is out of town this week: "Buggy hardware and tech support in Germany. The time difference is killing us."

Must be frustrating for everyone at Presonus, too. All the software development is happening there, right?

Question: where would you start picking apart my file? Bottom up, Top down? Given that you know more about everyone else's issues, you might have ideas I don't.
: )

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by jpettit on Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:58 pm
Make a safety copy of the song.

1) Remove all VCAs or part of them and see if the issue still exists.
2) For any hierarchy (bus set up to feeds a bus) that might have automation remove the last bus in the chain and see if the issue still exists.

Remember this is not about the song sounding or functioning correct but just watching the automation until the issue goes away.
As soon and it does stop and undo what you just did,

The do it again to see if the issue goes away. At that point, you are very close.

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by lisarowe on Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:09 pm
Hi--
Made a 2nd copy "save as"

Performed experiment.
volume fader of track in question set at zero.
insert point, fader drops, so does sound level
control z
sound level comes back up, but fader doesn't move.
automation line doesn't move until I hit control z, at that point it drops.
each new iteration caused sound level to drop to the level of the new fader level, but still come back to starting with control z.

I repeated this cycle several times and discovered that there is indeed a pattern to the fader drops:
0, -6.6, -13.3, -20.0, -26.6, -33.3, -40.0, -46.6, -53.3, -60.0, -66.6
thought it might be wise to stop there.

VCA fader level is -6.7

Reset VCA level to -1.0 and track to 0
Repeat cycle.
0, -1.0, -2.0, -2.9, -3.9, -4.9 -5.9, -6.8, -7.8, -8.8, -9.8, -10.7

I feel kind of stupid for not noticing the correlation sooner. "Random" is being governed by some kind of rounding factor, eh? (Husband said, "That's silly." when I asked just now, "of course there's more decimal places." I lost him when I said I couldn't give him more accurate numbers.)

Should I reply with this info to the support ticket or wait until they get back to me?
: )

PS: the problem did not happen when vca fader was set at zero.
Removed VCA, problem gone. control z VCA back, problem back.

PS #2: Forgot to add: I contacted the source of my multitracks, they said I can forward my file, assuming it would be kept in house, of course.

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by jpettit on Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:54 pm
Sorry, Lisa, you have to isolate.

Get it down to a bare minimum.
Delete half of the tracks in the song
Delete entire layers of faders in the chain.
Then do that again until you have isolated the behavior.
Peel the onion.

While you doing that think about where you could be actually automating the VCAS level even by accident. Also, think about where you have things grouped.

Those two type of setups can cause two signals to adjust a fader.

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by jpettit on Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:22 pm
I took a close look at you two pictures and short video clip.
This whole thing can be explained by your VCA level setting/ offsetting your Master drum buss level.
Disconnect the VCA and test it.

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