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Greetings,

There's a lot of headroom above 0 when viewing the individual channels on the mixing board during playback; so, is it truly clipping at 0 on playback (in which case it should be avoided)?

Thanks for any feedback!
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by Lawrence on Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:12 am
No, it's not clipping. Zero is representative of full scale for the 24-bit digital scale but because all modern workstations operate internally at 32-bit float or higher, clipping at zero doesn't occur unless a signal over 0 literally goes to something that's 24-bit or less, like hitting a converter on your hardware, or bouncing a file to 24-bit.
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by SwitchBack on Thu Apr 19, 2018 7:52 am
The 0 inside a DAW is also a reference point for many dynamic plugins (such as compressors) so it's still good advice to be sensible about it. Above 0 could translate as 'getting out of control'.
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by SMcNamara on Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:10 am
SwitchBack wroteThe 0 inside a DAW is also a reference point for many dynamic plugins (such as compressors) so it's still good advice to be sensible about it. Above 0 could translate as 'getting out of control'.


Keep in mind that many mixing guides/tutorials recommend having a signal at approximately -18dB going into effects, since the plug-in effects are (I've read somewhat consistently) designed for that level of input. That seems odd given "0" but it's what I've seen over and over. I do not claim to have the necessary expertise to opine, though. :)

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by Lawrence on Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:04 pm
I knew it wouldn't be too long before this turned into yet another "gain staging" thread. :)

At any rate, the mixer channel meters he asked about in Studio One are post fader only, after the insert plugins, and they don't show average or RMS levels so a -18 average level is not something they could measure even if they could switch to the channel input.
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by Jemusic on Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:51 pm
I promise to not make this a gain staging thread :D

It depends on the level of the signal on the track that is feeding the fader. If the signal level is say a nominal rms level of -20 then no. It means then the 0 dB on the fader represents -20 DBFS.

0dB on the channel fader is just representing the sweet spot for that fader I guess. It means there is 20 dB of headroom available above that signal level. Fader can go up by +10 dB which gives you some room to wiggle if you are say working at -20 or the the more common industry standard of -18. (It means even the fader is pushed up to the max e.g. +10 dB then there is still 8 or 10 dB of headroom above that.

If a track has signal that is at 0 dB FS then yes, it means 0 dB on the fader = 0 dBFS and there is no where to go from there. (at least as far as the converters are concerned)

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by klypeman on Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:04 am
0 dBFS means 0 dB Full Scale. the FS = Full Scale for those that don't know yet by the way.
Just saying.
8-)

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by SMcNamara on Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:31 am
Lawrence wroteAt any rate, the mixer channel meters he asked about in Studio One are post fader only, after the insert plugins, and they don't show average or RMS levels so a -18 average level is not something they could measure even if they could switch to the channel input.


Lawrence:

Can you add to this a bit? If I'm trying to keep the signal going into the insert plugins at around -18dB, is there a way using track channel meters to gauge this, or do I have to insert a plugin for measurement?

Thanks,

Steve

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by matthewgorman on Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:22 pm
Lawrence:

Can you add to this a bit? If I'm trying to keep the signal going into the insert plugins at around -18dB, is there a way using track channel meters to gauge this, or do I have to insert a plugin for measurement?

Thanks,

Steve


Depends. Many times I will just use the plug itself. I will typically get the audio event to the level I want, either via clip gain or mixtool in the first insert slot. The I use the output gain of a plug to control the input to the next plug. Most times that is enough. Sometimes I need a separate meter to gauge. All depends on what you are using.

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by Jemusic on Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:46 pm
Many Plugins have input meters which are reading rms. But they need to be calibrated. Often they are set to a default level of -18 = 0 dB VU. If you are working at other levels e.g. -20 then you can easily change the calibration level.

You can always use the built in standard level meter and put it into K system mode. Even if you are working at -18 you can still use the level meter set for -20 k system and use + 2dB = 0 VU as the reference. Or work at -20 of course.

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by Lawrence on Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:14 am
SMcNamara wroteCan you add to this a bit? If I'm trying to keep the signal going into the insert plugins at around -18dB, is there a way using track channel meters to gauge this, or do I have to insert a plugin for measurement?

Thanks,

Steve


It's an Internet created rabbit hole mostly from (or for) a generation who never recorded in analog, pure and simple.

If you're doing the recording yourself and operating as you should be in the analog domain, on the analog front end, using analog zero as a reference when recording, your signals should already be in that "range" and there shouldn't be any need to adjust it much it in post unless you want to "drive" the analog modeled plugin for more effect.

It makes no sense at all (to me, mmv) to record too hot or too low and then "gain stage" to -18 average when you should be averaging around analog zero in the first place during the tracking stage. If the people doing the recording aren't doing that, a question and a observation...

1. Why not?
2. Most if not all of the good "analog emulator" plugins have input VU meters and input gain/trim knobs on them anyway.
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by Jemusic on Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:45 pm
I agree with tracking in the right range. If you do that you won't need any gain adjustments further down the line.

Where adjusting a tracks overall rms level comes into play for me anyway is when I get a session tracked by someone else. And some of the tracks are sitting down at say -30 dB rms and yes they can be that low. They are impossible to mix and you will just never have enough usable level at your disposal. In that situation I would add some level in an editor and bring that up to the ref level I am working at. (I like -14 too as a ref level. It creates an automatic -14 rms master) And when you do this, yes you may be raising the digital noise floor but it still works very well and the increased digital noise floor will still remain mostly inaudible.

Other tracks are sometimes super loud in sessions like this too e.g. sitting at -8 or -6 dB rms. I tend to just grab the event gain handles and pull them down to match the ref level I am working at in those cases. The waveform heights will also reflect this.

Virtual instrument levels can be all over the place too. From super quiet to smashing loud. Not a bad idea to pop a meter straight after and monitor their levels. Use their output level controls to also get the ref level before rendering. Saves time later on too.

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