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stevenicel wrote
santeripilli wroteGuys,

In an ideal situation us, the paying clients, would not be required to go through complex processes to try and fix errors in software code. You are the source of income, who should be allowed to enjoy a well tested software upon the release, composing away happily.

You are, however, not paid salary for beta-testing, to be obliged ("Reproduce the steps or the bug will be unlikely to get fixed") systematically and continuously provide a software developer with needed information to pin-point the faults in development.

This is a major responsibility of the software developer, in this case, PreSonus. My personal opinion is that here the Studio One development is lacking.

Yes. Oh, be helpful, be kind in life and in this forum. But think about your consumer ethics, people. This culture will never change, should you yet and yet again accept a new version with a considerable amount of faults.
- Santeri


Goodness, logical reason in 2018! Rare.. Well here's my 2 cents, and honestly, I could care less how this comes across. I'm sick of trying to frame issues in "nanny speak".

I'm not sure exactly when the developer culture adopted the slogan of "provide customers a percentage of functionality, then assume leniency and latitude later when reality doesn't match promotion". The selling model seems to have turned completely on it's head, and it really needs to have change forced on it. But the majority of people place importance on bling, so not sure how that change is ever going to occur.

The "BUS automation not rendering correctly on STEM creation" is one of MANY flaws I continually struggle with. Often without realising until too many subsequent processes have been applied. It's complete and utter crap and in no way has ANY valid justification for it to still exist. Nor do the myriad of other rendering anomalies which I have encountered and sent support requests for over the past 20 months.

I create and use complex mixing processes to get me where I need to be for both the song, master and archive purposes. The current options for rendering instruments, and have it accurately record all insert/aux and bus routing configurations, is a nightmare. Not to mention the difficulty rendering Studio One's own multi out instruments when they have complex automation and aux effects applied from both the channel strip itself and the bus/busses they're routed through. Constantly feels like trying to do a square dance at a prog-rock concert when the bands playing in 13/16.

Throw into the mix the inaccuracies of Studio One render bugs, and sometimes I just feel like giving up being able to have accurate archived tracks and stems 10-15 years down the road.

I have lost any faith whatsoever in Studio One's audio export/stem render system. And I cannot under any circumstances render more than one track at a time. If I don't check each one, I always discover accuracy problems later on when I realise things just don't sound right. It's just plain flawed and really effects my workflow in a ongoing negative way. Making the archive and pre-master process PAINFUL!

I simply refuse to move to v4 because many of the existing v3 core issues weren't made functional. Presonus just did the coveted "business deception card trick". And for the majority of buying public who just wants more for less, it worked perfectly. Hope the new revenue boost was worth the moral conscience trade-off.

Let's frame some similar analogies perhaps. If you purchased a CPU for your new computer and the product specs state "Intel i7 8700 6 core @3.7GHz speed" and you installed it and discovered that it's really just an "i3 core duo" in the aforementioned shell, what would you expect? Well, according to the logic fostered by this current trend, you should indeed be expected to keep tweaking that i3 duo in a vain attempt to one day make it scream like it's actually an i7 8700. What crap! So we the consumers, who pay the asking price, should proceed attempting to get a silk purse out of a sow's ear!. Really?? Why?

It seems to be so easy for digital product creators to hide behind the "it's impossible to develop for all scenarios" excuse. Well that may be. But simply put, you have to suck that up, and make the product work without issue if you offer that product for that platform. Or don't receive money for it at all.
If you're a developer then it's your job to know the risks for bringing that product to market. If you don't, then you're a bigger idiot than anyone could possibly call you.
You can't have it both ways. And reading the level of feedback and interactions, what I hear is, "you should be thankful we're giving you a DAW for your money at all!".

Reality and commonsense should therefor follow this logic; it's totally acceptable for a paying customer to expect a refund when said products have complete workflow and design functionality flaws. If the product flaw stops customers using it as the tool it was designed to be, to get the job done, then that product has not been delivered at all! The difference is it's easy to hide behind the non-tangible medium of digital.

How about we try some other fantasy commerce examples:
If I went into a store to buy a carpenters claw hammer, would we all be ok getting a kids plastic engineering ball-peen hammer, with no handle? Apparently it's ok expecting consumers to spend extra time, money and resources to turn products into functional and advantageous business tools after paying for the whole product... Interesting.

What if we went to buy a gourmet sandwich at $12.50 and was handed a container with only flour, salt and butter. Then when queried, the store owner replied "well, if you mix it all up a bit, then walk around all day and try to find someone with an oven and perhaps some spare condiments, then go to another store and buy a paper bag, and some mayo, you will have your gourmet sandwich. I don't see your problem customer?".
Is this sounding like a reasonable and LOGICAL supply and demand trade? I don't think so. But it seems so commonplace.

Don't let the "free" help cover the underlying reality. Community spirit is great, but accepting sub-standard product delivery AND massive time expense is not. Despite good intent, often there is personal incentive to perpetuate a belief that the community should fix problems. Whether it's in current benefit or desired future personal benefit, it's all one and the same and makes no difference.

People don't just give because they love to keep giving forever, they expect it will lead to something in return. Philanthropists get reward for their "giving". They know that by giving, the brand will acquire boat-loads of goodwill and consumer 'cred', which in turn massively increases sales potential from the inherent promotion over the long term. That is, of course, after the tax write-off benefit which sees companies losing much less than they already were in the first place. Companies never give above what they can afford to deduct.
Am I saying this because I think it's bad or negative? Nope, not at all. But the point I'm making here is that it's so easy to mince words and influence people for one's own veiled or desired benefit.

So why are people still happy being convinced that consumers should be software troubleshooters and beta-testers? Perhaps part of it is the new culture of crowd-funding (money before product delivery), or part societal entitlement? Whatever the reason, we now live in an age of low social expectation. The default has become: assume no responsibility for our personal or equitable actions. Just none. Sell it and forget is the new business creed.

Come on. Why is it that people become so frustrated on user forums (leaving aside of course low intelligence or reactive aggression)? The savvy know they exist as a way for any business to palm off absent support to those who are prepared to do their work for free. It's not rocket science. But it's also NOT COOL. Especially when people just need things to work as advertised without spending 2 years full of constant, time-wasting workflow workarounds for simple things..

Presonus.... hello. hello.. h--e--ll--o, is any body out t - h - e - r - e .. ere .. ere. Can anybody here me .. me .. me . me? . . ? . .? . . Ground control to major Tom ...


Great post, Steve. Bugs like these can be tremendously frustrating. A killer of inspiration and flow.

I have decided not to upgrade from v.3 to v.4 until PreSonus brings to the table something that I actually need, and also works the way I want it to (the latter being the reason I chose S1 in the first place). (For me) it feels weird to pay for something just to do it. And I don't want to send the company a message of "take my money" if it doesn't provide the value (for me).

I believe you buy a product like this for what it is and not what it might become. This goes for upgrades too. It might solve all my issues during the v.4 cycle, but there's no way of knowing that. Especially with a company that doesn't publicy share any future plans. You get what you get when you get it, if you get it. So all I can do is vote in the FR area and with my money.

Reading your post, I came to realize a issue with my way of thinking. Not only am I happy to pay for features that I actually need, I am also happy to pay for bug fixing. If all bugs were fixed in a new update, I'd take it. This is because bugs can be exhausting (f i. missing takes from loop recording while improvising melody and lyrics) and I just want to move on. But this way of thinking is of course ethically flawed, cause bug fixing really should be free of charge for product owners. I'd buy it. Guess it goes to show that I've given up on being a thoroughly responsible customer.
User avatar
by soupiraille on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:55 am
Create a track for each Bus you want to print, set that Bus as the input of that track, press M + R + U then press Record. Done. Problem solved. Hair saved. (set the appropriate bit depth in your song’s settings)

Things sometimes are simple!


፨ Studio One Professional 3.5.6
፨ Windows 10 x64 (1703)
፨ Dual Intel Xeon E5-2680v2
፨ 32 GB RAM
፨ Asus Z9PE-D8 WS (5802)
User avatar
by stevenicel on Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:37 pm
Skaperverket wrote
stevenicel wrote
Goodness, logical reason in 2018! ... ... (rest of my first post omitted to reduce page bloat)


Great post, Steve. Bugs like these can be tremendously frustrating. A killer of inspiration and flow.

I have decided not to upgrade from v.3 to v.4 until PreSonus brings to the table something that I actually need, and also works the way I want it to (the latter being the reason I chose S1 in the first place). (For me) it feels weird to pay for something just to do it. And I don't want to send the company a message of "take my money" if it doesn't provide the value (for me).

Good thoughts here Skaperverket. All of what you noted is well observed. And good for you for not just accepting and swallowing the capitalist mantra.

Skaperverket wroteI believe you buy a product like this for what it is and not what it might become. This goes for upgrades too.

Absolutely, it's imperative otherwise we're just paying for someone else' dream and indulgence! And there's enough of that crap on Facebook and Instagram to sink the planet thanks.

Skaperverket wroteIt might solve all my issues during the v.4 cycle, but there's no way of knowing that. Especially with a company that doesn't publicly share any future plans. You get what you get when you get it, if you get it. So all I can do is vote in the FR area and with my money.

Very true, and I'm sure it'll come as no surprise that I am growing tired of the almost non-existent presence of core Presonus stakeholders contributing to candid discussions anywhere in the public eye. They do not share ANYTHING about future development plans or system/DAW road mapping.
There is virtually never any official response to anything! And don't get me started on the effieciency of the FR system.

I believe all of my support queries has either ended in a functionality flaw workaround, or a misunderstood and unrelated suggestion which then leads back to the former.
I can't help but wonder if tech support feel it's easier to offer a cluster of unrelated suggestions, rather than really try to understand the issue being presented in an articulate way. Most times i've just stopped following up and politely closed the interaction.

Skaperverket wroteReading your post, I came to realize a issue with my way of thinking. Not only am I happy to pay for features that I actually need, I am also happy to pay for bug fixing. If all bugs were fixed in a new update, I'd take it. This is because bugs can be exhausting (f i. missing takes from loop recording while improvising melody and lyrics) and I just want to move on.

Spot on and I hear you on that, and in a fluffy world I could also relent and justify this way of thinking. But as you note below, this simply perpetuates the issue. Everybody of course just wants to move on and get to the next thing. There's always the next thing.
We; to the next recording, to the next mix so we can then get onto the next 25 processes needed to produce and finish a song. The company; to their next piece of the profit puzzle and bigger fish to catch...

Skaperverket wroteBut this way of thinking is of course ethically flawed, cause bug fixing really should be free of charge for product owners. I'd buy it. Guess it goes to show that I've given up on being a thoroughly responsible customer.

Cha-ching! And this is, in essence, what the current culture machine is happy to have encouraged and wants to happen. It's hard sticking to ethics when we know it'll cost further time as well. But conviction maketh the person. So we end up spending more time dealing with the workarounds, then further time if we want to have a conscience. But really we're all spending that time trying to find answers in the forums anyway!
It's akin to modern politics that constantly create internal system drama to distract the population from being able to focus on any REAL issues. If we stick our head in the sand. We then become THE problem. But of course as you rightly observed, it takes a committed person to choose being part of a solution instead. And the solution here for example, IS NOT as simple as being a super helpful contributor on the forums. It makes people feel good that they're being helpful, yes. But just because intentions are good, doesn't mean it's helping the core issue.

For context, look what Avid did. They managed to mould and leverage their early die hard Pro Tools Digi based community so craftily after the buyout, that you weren't even allowed to vocalise the company should be expected to fix issues themselves. Any questioning was meet with "oh poor Avid are struggling, cut them some slack as their millions are diminishing". poop man, I suspect their millions were diminishing because the parent body was using it for bigger fish to fry! That's not struggling, that's pure evasive business choice. I mean companies are always struggling according to the balance sheet. Certainly doesn't stop COO's and CEO's from allocating their 5M payroll bonus though does it.

So the users who were so dedicated to ensuring that PT continued to exist, would hand deliver many issues and solutions to their very door. Great for them. Then they proceed to only pick whatever issues their parent company allow them to spend money on fixing.

The culture has become so entrenched in placing bug fixing as the responsibility of the user, that we are made to feel guilty if we don't invest weeks and months of our own time finding solutions. Again, it's utter rubbish. If you produce a product for which you make money, you alone are responsible to deliver said product in it's entirety. Not half, not 75%, not 98% but 100% of that remunerated product.
Once you step into the professional product delivery arena, you can't assume the luxury of thinking as a hobbyist.
I have a feeling that because outsourced coding to developing countries has become so affordable and commonplace, it's easy for companies to be completely "wined and dined" by the fantasy that anything is possible in software development. They become complacent and begin focusing only on how much income potential there is in the profit pond. Code planning starts taking a massive backseat to GUI bedazzling. You know, the bling-bling.

Coders are also being strung out and therefor are spending less and less time focusing on code fallback and redundancies. So these companies continue developing with even less educated understanding that back-end development issues can catapult you into massive debt very quickly due to short sighted code planning and strategic development.
When bugs arise, as they certainly will, it's already too late to turn the ship around because the code ground work was not rock solid to begin with.

I suspect you only need to look as far as someone like RME to see a good example of solid, well founded coding development practice. They can obviously code from a holistic in-house functionality viewpoint. Not a widget based one, where each developer is working on chunks of code that has no idea of how well each node is going to react or function with the other, as more complex variables are introduced. As happens I'm guessing a ten thousand fold on the windows platform.

I know Presonus just want develop a solid DAW ecosystem that rules the platform. That's cool and great. I'd like to keep using what they make. However what I need in return is a completely bulletproof ecosystem to do our work without dodging bullets constantly. That's how trade is mean't to work; I pay you money for my professional product needs, you give me the entire product I paid to get my work done efficiently.

Right, again too much time spent. I must to learn to refrain.

http://stevenicelmusic.com.au
- - - - - - - System - - - - - - -
PC: Intel Core i7-6800K CPU @3.40GHz, 6 Core(s) | 32GB RAM | NVIDIA NVS300 512MB | Win 7 Pro, 64 Bit | SSD Internal | 2x SATA Audio/Sample Drives | Firewire PCI card | Thunderbolt | Digi003 Rack. Komplete Kontrol V1.8. NI S49 Controller. BCF2000. Studio One 3.5.1. Pro tools 12.8.1
User avatar
by soupiraille on Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:18 pm
Why not using my above suggestion? Simple, works 100%, and what you hear is what you get. All that you want.


፨ Studio One Professional 3.5.6
፨ Windows 10 x64 (1703)
፨ Dual Intel Xeon E5-2680v2
፨ 32 GB RAM
፨ Asus Z9PE-D8 WS (5802)
User avatar
by BobF on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:54 am
All that can be said with regard to the reported problem appears to have been said.
I'm locking this before it gets out of hand.

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