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Decided to move this to its own thread so it wouldn't get lost ...

?

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by kenmatson on Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:33 am
Thanks Lokeyfly ... hmmmmm ... how to respond ....

First - the thread - it started in the Sonar help thread, but there was something else hot there that was getting a lot of posts, and mine quickly fell way down the list. That's what I mean. As for the "SONARugee" - we were told early on to indicate we are coming from SONAR in our posts - has that changed?

Yes - I know my example/post was long winded - apologies for that - I fancy myself a writer sometimes, and tend to make novels out of things LOL! On the other hand, it seems that simple requests with no detailed use-cases get a "why would you want to do that" kind of response - mine and other folks - so I was trying to provide the "why" up front.

As for the request itself, all I'm really asking for when you get down to it is 2 things - 1) to be able to do normal clip editing on a clip in a layer/lane, and 2) to be able to move clips vertically between layers/lanes. There's nothing about that which would mess with anyone's current workflow if they're happy with it, nothing out of the ordinary as far as DAW users generally are used to, would seem to be a reasonable programming effort, and its something that would be of benefit to many users - new ones and old ones alike. Would you never use it if it were there? I'm very confused what the underlying "objection" is from the old guard here?

As for my "real world" statements - you misunderstood me. I do not think for a minute that my workflow or requests are any more important than anyone else's, nor do I think I ought to have some sort of special access to the development queue. I will enter FR's just like everyone else if I want certain functionality.

From watching this and the Facebook Forum, it would seem that the large majority of S1 users are either hobbyists or self-producing artists - working pretty much by, with, and for themselves. Nothing wrong with that - been there done that - and it's true of SONAR and many other DAWS too. However, workflows that work fine in that scenario do not necessarily work well for a commercial studio like mine - working with all kinds of genre's, different client personalities and expectations, working through the glass with performers in the studio, etc. I don't know how many full time studio pros are here ... some I would suspect - maybe you're one - I don't know - but I bet we're the minority by a good bit.

This doesn't mean I'm more important or know best about everything in the app - it does mean I have a different workflow than most - one that is much more tied to efficiency of time usage, quick editing actions, severe (sometimes) time and deadline constraints, and client idiosyncrasies.

As to the request ... several have mentioned just using tracks to accomplish this. Maybe I'm not understanding, or folks aren't understanding me, but if I have my "takes" on separate tracks - I have no way to quickly and easily compare sections from different takes. I guess I could manually split clips and use the mute tool like crazy maybe, but I'd like to have the ease-of-use of the S1 comp tools - making sections by selecting them, trying/promoting another layer with a click double click, etc. If my client says "let's hear the first half of that verse from the 2nd take and the second half of the verse from the 4th take" - can I do it with tracks? Yes. Is it anywhere near as easy as the comp tools with layers? No. Now if he starts shouting out different combinations like that, and I have to move quickly ... well ... you see my point ... I hope.

In conclusion - I mean no harm! Truly! Overall - very happy with S1 - said it several times. I'm just trying to get my bearings to do my day to day work most efficiently, and saw a feature that would help me do that. Please take my request in that spirit and forgive the long winded use-case detail!

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by jpettit on Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:59 am
kenmatson wrote1) From watching this and the Facebook Forum, it would seem that the large majority of S1 users are either hobbyists or self-producing artists - working pretty much by, with, and for themselves. Nothing wrong with that - been there done that - and it's true of SONAR and many other DAWS too. However, workflows that work fine in that scenario do not necessarily work well for a commercial studio like mine - working with all kinds of genre's, different client personalities and expectations, working through the glass with performers in the studio, etc. I don't know how many full time studio pros are here ... some I would suspect - maybe you're one - I don't know - but I bet we're the minority by a good bit.

2) As to the request ... several have mentioned just using tracks to accomplish this. Maybe I'm not understanding, or folks aren't understanding me, but if I have my "takes" on separate tracks - I have no way to quickly and easily compare sections from different takes.

3) I guess I could manually split clips and use the mute tool like crazy maybe, but I'd like to have the ease-of-use of the S1 comp tools - making sections by selecting them, trying/promoting another layer with a click double click, etc.

If my client says "let's hear the first half of that verse from the 2nd take and the second half of the verse from the 4th take" - can I do it with tracks? Yes. Is it anywhere near as easy as the comp tools with layers? No.

Now if he starts shouting out different combinations like that, and I have to move quickly ... well ... you see my point ... I hope.

OK Ken
You actually have two thread on the Comping Discussion so let's combine or lock one as things get redundant real fast. Permission to lock this one as the other one is more to the point or I could combine them and tweak the title?
1) A huge topic worthy of its own thread.
2) & 3) What everyone is telling you is use comping for what it is good at. Auditioning different takes and adopt a housekeeping edits to the a) Master track or b) Send takes to Tracks after the workflow of picking the best takes.

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by kenmatson on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:18 pm
I'm fine with combining - like to keep my last post though or move it to the other thread if possible? I was just responding where people were replying to me, but one thread is good. thanks!

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by jpettit on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:21 pm
I will merge them however some context will be lost and or redundancy. DONE

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by Lokeyfly on Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:22 pm
Very cool. Thanks for explaining Ken. Wanna laugh, I haven't read your response yet, but I'll check later. We can continue on the other thread.

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by Lawrence on Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:59 pm
kenmatson wroteFrom watching this and the Facebook Forum, it would seem that the large majority of S1 users are either hobbyists or self-producing artists - working pretty much by, with, and for themselves.

Now that one made me chuckle, thanks. :lol: That literally describes every DAW on the planet, in the modern age, since they don't all cost $1000 or more anymore like they used to, and anyone with a decent computer can record at home for very little money.

I saw your studio link / business (nice btw :thumbup: ) and my guess is that at best, maybe 5%, and that's being generous, of DAW users are running studios. For every studio like yours there's probably 5000 guys in their basement or den working mostly by themselves. :)
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by Bbd on Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:21 pm
Agreed Lawrence and also don't forget many like me that were in the studio business for decades. All that experience has not gone to waste.
I still record others but not nearly what I did in the past.
I think the whole question of it doesn't make any difference at all. The DAW serves many and the many have different needs for it.
:)

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by Lawrence on Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:41 pm
I should qualify that last comment to say that describes every "affordable" DAW on the planet (which is most of them) because there are still a few expensive ones out there like Nuendo, Sequoia, PTHD, maybe Soundscape, etc, and maybe a few others like Pyramix that maybe aren't hugely expensive but just not popular with the addicts or hobbyists who buy and sell DAWs like candy.

So... yeah... I suspect Pyramix users are not largely hobbyists, nor PTHD or Sequoia because they cost too much, the last two.

Samplitude just had the full version on sale for $149 and if there weren't a lot of hobbyists using it before because of the price, there probably will be more now. :)
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by garyshepherd on Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:10 pm
Tacman7 wroteRight after I bounce the comp track I delete all the layers then permanently delete all the takes in the pool.


Yes - that's the way to work.

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by Lokeyfly on Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:52 am
Hi Ken,
Ah, I didn't know about someone suggesting  your noting you're from Sonar. Sounds a tad odd, but hey, my miss on that.o That's probably not changed. Psst, I'll just note I'm from a dozen other DAW's, and sequencers when I post, . Lol. Joshing.

Actually when comping, , I'm just glad clips can be advanced forward or backward in time, It's a copy paste effort, also based on where the timeline is set. Early phases of comping were a bit less flexible.  That change came around v2.5. Several years back. To be honest, no, I need comping to stay swift and dedicated to advancing segments as is, then edit later. If something on a layer were eating at me to fix, I'd locate that portion of the audio from the pool, or convert it to an audio event, edit it, and get it back on line.

kenmatson wrote: Maybe I'm not understanding, or folks aren't understanding me, but if I have my "takes" on separate tracks - I have no way to quickly and easily compare sections from different takes.


I think you do have quick ways to repair not only what is the most useful information, but also ways in which to see it. Hers two in which I come across often (within comping).

1 what I'll do Ken, is take even the best segments, even if I ran out of choices.within the layers/lanes.  Then bounce the comp, and edit after in Melodyne, etc.  it allows me to nail or target the best of the comp, quickly and be done with it. Yes, I understand when the client goes home......, but that's when you or the producer better be on your game ensuring you have enough to work with. IMHO. And experience in such cases.

I'd suggest either re-take, or rehearse passes, before I'd band aid comp layer/lanes, but hey, that my work flow.

2. Quick comping trick I use, for visability, and perhaps you may find it useful.  when I want to resort to the comp, or lanes, perhaps in some.other verse, before I bounce the original.comp selections into one, I copy the comp as is. Meaning all the selections are shown in respecrive lanes, and all  visible (lanes open).
Then copy (Alt + drag) the comp back far enough out of the way, like a few minutes back, or past the songs end point. Now when I bounce the original, i have this very visible duplicate that shows still where edits existed. It allows me to base future selecrions, on new, or existing choices.if for example the comp is used in another vers/chorus etc.

A word on studio workflow vs other. IMO
Workflow can be a bit all over the place in every profession or even hobby for that matter. Truthfully! Look at editors. Rarely do you see more of a need for quick workflow, and deadlines. Typically, that nature of production drives more of a need for speed. That could be from Sydney, to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Such editing is driven almost invariably with Pro Tools, by the vast nature of its many key commands and syntax. Not every home recordists cup of tea (as we know by effectively using another DAW of choice).


Not familiar wirh your studio. However, for most recording Studios, generally speaking, youll work more with your clients timeline up to a point. Especially today. Studios no longer enjoy the same recording exclusivity they once did, so unless you are under some corporate gun, or out of some of the more common music environments such as Nashville, L.A., or NYC, , London, etc., please don't sell us on your need to work faster due to your studio workflow.. I'd have to question not only your DAW choice (given that Producers or even clients often talk PT shop), yes, I understand, you better have your chops down, no doubt in front of a client with speed and efficiency. But again, coming from Sonar, to Studio One, and asking in a forum how to better comp, or "my workflow is essential"; comes off a tad unusual.

 Typically for all genres, and DAW users, good habits form thorough use of  key commands, for location, referencing back/forward, zoom, positioning,, etc. Obviously a Studio scenario, not as fast paced as editing (usually) requires a direct, less laid back pace.

Its just that asking how to comp in a newly ported DAW is like some horse Jockey, who got off a dying horse, is hitching a ride along the roadside, and stresses to some teenager in their car, he's got to get to town, because he's used the fast workflow.
Last edited by Lokeyfly on Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Lokeyfly on Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:54 am
Just a side note:

Ken, you've been very fair, and my, or our (if I may) points are simply contributions, to assist your question(s). We're all in this together to make this already fine DAW better for our individual needs. Obviously that most important goal, our music (or venture).

You seem very nice, offer useful points, and I think will serve the community, very well. I responded to your earlier point about having (or your concern, not having) to deal S1 as it is. Well, it really is what it is my friend. We can twiddle the governer, or idle speed screws on the lawnmower, and ask for improvements, but in the end each of us better be getting immediate results. If it's a bug, Presonus act like white on rice. If it's a request, it's largely (and understandably) a commitment to evaluate, and determine that need based on the overall direction of the product. Not what your, my, or some other user feels from years of mixer experience, MUST be on there (ie. Gain control, etc). Quick and elegant solutions really are there. It often takes minor digging, but it's there. Why? Because if it's important, you make it so. Sure, at first it's a little find and seek. But because the program is so streamlined, next times are typically a snap. That's workflow imo. Not looking, then immediately asking.

A company making changes to quickly, and reacting based on urgent demand, and.......well, some of us know better than others, what those results can bring.

So as a suggestion, it might be best, as in many such forums, to make inquiries with less fluff, case history, or bolstering some exclusive need for fast workflow. The points remain clearer that way, and no bold text needed in a sea of well, information. In the end, everyone gets the details easily, which will at best result in a better chance for action. That primary purpose.

From one person to another, stroking the world of artistic good (in this often bizzare world), it's been fun.

Regards,

James

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by mikemanthei on Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:47 pm
kenmatson wrote4. New takes seem to go to any existing empty spot in an existing layer if there is one - which is sometimes what I want, but is there a way to "force" a new take to go to a new layer regardless if there is space on an existing layer?


Hey Ken;
...per this question and another one where you were asking "why does Studio One create a new layer when I don't want one..." I decided to re-visit this a bit and think I may have a method that might work better for you.

This stopped me from using layers, so I get it. You basically don't want Studio One to decide when to make a new layer...and you want to work on a single "take" (that might require multiple punch-ins) before moving on to a new "take". Studio One would use the current layer if there was space, but when there wasn't a new layer would be created. Leaving little shards of broken performances in seemingly random locations.

1) So rather than set up Studio One to record to layers, shut that option off. It doesn't kill the ability to use layers, it just stops Studio One from doing it automatically.

2) Go into the keyboard shortcuts and search for "layers". Add a shortcut key to "Add Layers". I used Control-L. It's also possible to just open the Inspector Pane (F4) and select "Layers/Add Layer" to add one, but that's a couple mouse clicks too many when I'm in the heat of creativity. :) I've found there are also some right-click options to add a layer, but I like the hotkey. Whatever works best.

3. Then you go back to recording as usual. ...and you'll work on a single layer until you decide to start a new one. I know that doesn't solve all the issues, but I think it fixes the problem with logical takes being randomly saved on who-knows-what-layer .... and it follows the creative flow of the vocalist who is going to come into the control room and start asking to hear certain versions.

And.. if you haven't used the "Pre-record audio Input" option, enable that with a couple of seconds... you'll never miss another punch-in..... really saves my bacon because now I don't have to know when the singer is going to want to start singing. I just press record after he starts singing, then move the punch-in point later with the crossfade.

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by jpettit on Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:12 pm
Seems like a good workflow for controlling what goes to a layers. :thumbup:
It does not solve the comping behaviors he wants but the language of the need is getting refined enough to write a good FR.

This gets to the root need.
require (multiple punch-ins) on a layer before moving on to a new "take

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by mikemanthei on Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:27 pm
True... it's only part of the issue. But it was the major stumbling block for me to use layers. The automatic mode made recording easier, but managing all the little snippets after the fact was just too much fumbling around looking for a particular punch-in.

I'm very old school in that way too. If something isn't right, it always seemed a waste to keep a copy of it "just in case". Back in the days of analog and low track counts, you often didn't have the luxury of "save that one and let's do another one..."

Now that we have the ability to keep unlimited versions of a track, there's a growing movement to get back to the old way and commit to making a go/no go decision during tracking. It can be refreshing, as well as cutting down on editing later. :) Some of my clients are getting the hint... when I ask "Why save it if it's bad?"... they usually smile and agree just to record it again.

But I'm getting off track here... guess I'm just reminiscing again.

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by Skaperverket on Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:47 pm
A great workflow. Also, a handy feature is that you can leave the Record Panel open above the Transport bar (go to the View menu and select Record Panel), so when you need to switch between the various modes while recording you can do so easily and very efficiently once you've done it a few times.
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by kenmatson on Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:19 pm
mikemanthei wrote1) So rather than set up Studio One to record to layers, shut that option off. It doesn't kill the ability to use layers, it just stops Studio One from doing it automatically.

2) Go into the keyboard shortcuts and search for "layers". Add a shortcut key to "Add Layers". I used Control-L. It's also possible to just open the Inspector Pane (F4) and select "Layers/Add Layer" to add one, but that's a couple mouse clicks too many when I'm in the heat of creativity. :) I've found there are also some right-click options to add a layer, but I like the hotkey. Whatever works best.

3. Then you go back to recording as usual. ...and you'll work on a single layer until you decide to start a new one. I know that doesn't solve all the issues, but I think it fixes the problem with logical takes being randomly saved on who-knows-what-layer .... and it follows the creative flow of the vocalist who is going to come into the control room and start asking to hear certain versions.

And.. if you haven't used the "Pre-record audio Input" option, enable that with a couple of seconds... you'll never miss another punch-in..... really saves my bacon because now I don't have to know when the singer is going to want to start singing. I just press record after he starts singing, then move the punch-in point later with the crossfade.


I'm not at the studio at the moment and won't be again until Monday, but I'll give that a try. If I understand what you're saying fully, it sounds like it might be a good solution. As far as using the pre record, I've already been doing that, and it is a great thing! Since Studio One does not have the equivalent of sound-on-sound mode (in sonar,) it keeps me from having to worry about hitting an exact punch spot since I do only manual punches anyway. I love it and use it regularly now.

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by jpettit on Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:48 pm
You can always re-drag a previous events end if you end up cutting one off too early or overwriting one at the end.

Please make note of my quote in the previous post for your FR as that is close to getting at the requiremnt In as few words as possible.

You’re still back to what we suggested in the beginning really of using discrete layers or tracks and only using comping for tight loops like a few bars.

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by Lokeyfly on Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:53 pm
Skaperverket wroteA great workflow. Also, a handy feature is that you can leave the Record Panel open above the Transport bar (go to the View menu and select Record Panel), so when you need to switch between the various modes while recording you can do so easily and very efficiently once you've done it a few times.

Great point skaperverket. During tracking, I'll often keep the Record Panel open, because more than a few times, I might have mistakenly left "Takes to Layers" on, or the "Mix" selection turned off, etc. Experiment with that Panel Ken to get some desired options of your choice. At least for a short time, it's worth leaving the panel open, at the cost of a little real estate. That's a very functional panel.
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by PreAl on Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:08 am
Any FRs I can vote on?

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