Hey all,
I've been digging into S1 for some weeks now and I really like it a lot. However, for film work, there are still a lot of functions missing. In Cubase I'm using about 1000 tracks for my template and there is no way to make S1 digest such a huge amount of tracks, even when the tracks are de-activated. The project loads an eternity, not to speak about the saving times. I'm now trying to find a workaround for my workflow. My first thought was: - always start with a minimal project, with sends and folder tracks as a basic structure - instead of having all the instruments in the template, create track presets and drag them over, when needed Now the huge downside of this approach is: - there are no track presets, only instrument presets - sends cannot be saved with instruments (I know about the multi instrument / splitter workaround, but that's not an option if several tracks have to share the same 1 or 2 sends - since there are no track presets, track colors are not saved - basically you cannot store multiple audio or instruments tracks or even folder tracks containing tracks So, at this point I'm a bit out of ideas. I'm curious to know what your approach for big templates looks like. |
My suggestion ... (mmv as usual) .... take advantage of disabled and hidden tracks. Load everything you may need and disable the tracks along the way as you build the template, route everything, folder stuff up into groups and with VCA's if you need those, load up and route to your favorite aux send FX plugins, save a template.
When you open the template right click enable a track and play it as you decide what instruments to use. Hide stuff you don't want to see in arrange and the console. Here's my orchestral template below, 55 tracks, 65 mixer channels so far. I'm still adding things to it and tweaking along the way but all of the instruments are disabled. Everything is grouped and in folders. |
Not necessarily leaving, but I'm fascinated by the workflow of S1. For newer projects I would tend to use S1 only.
It's very intelligently put together. I'm missing innovative features in Cubase. It's stagnating and the development is slow. Whereas S1 seems very fresh and innovative. There's really not a lot missing in S1 and I hope Presonus keeps listening to film composers. |
_Stevie_ wrotewill the project load faster, when tracks are hidden AND disabled? Being disabled, yes, because no samples are loading. That's what takes time, loading samples. Beside that, that template of mine wouldn't even fit in the RAM on my system if all the tracks weren't disabled. Disabling tracks, when they added that feature, made templates much more useful. Hiding tracks - using "Scenes" for groups of things - just makes it all easier to manage visually if it eventually grows to 200 tracks or something. |
I just did a quick test, 1050 MIDI tracks, no instruments loaded, just the empty MIDI tracks and all tracks are hidden.
For only loading MIDI tracks, this takes really long, unloading as well: https://www.dropbox.com/s/jyjm1zn73jra1 ... g.gif?dl=0 |
Well.... yeah. It's going to take any software a certain amount of time to create (or destroy) 1000 tracks as each track is a distinct object in memory. That's not really relevant to the other thing we were discussing, not loading 16-24 gb of samples every time you open a template to work on a new song.
If you want to test it for real world use, load up 30-40 sample based instruments with good sample sets, like big PSO sounds, and don't disable the tracks, then save it close it and open it to see how long it takes to open. Then disable all the tracks, save it, close it and open it again. It will obviously open much faster in the second case, not having to load any samples. |
No no, wait. This is relevant. Because already loading empty MIDI tracks takes a long time.
So if I were to load a 1000 track template, all tracks disabled, alone creating the MIDI tracks would take 23 seconds. And loading 1000 MIDI tracks (each with a VST assigned) can only add to the loading time. Yes, I just checked with the disabled tracks. Of course this takes only a second with 30 tracks. That's marvelous and pretty much the same as in Cubase. However, in Cubase I would load a 1000 track template with disabled tracks in 10 seconds. As I mentioned my alternative appraoch would be to drag and drop track presets in the arrangement. This would keep project sizes small and loading times fast. But a real track template functionality would be needed for that approach. EDIT: btw, there seems to be a sweat spot in S1 for creating tracks. I just created 250 Kontakt 5 tracks, and this really went fast. However, duplicating the 250 tracks took way longer than creating the initial 250 tracks. |
You're over thinking it. Tracks are part of the application and have to "load", be created, in any and all cases, disabled or not. That's static, unchangeable.
The reason to disable tracks is to not use RAM (or to unload ram), and for templates, to speed loading time by not loading samples into ram that you may not even need to use. Anyway, it was just a suggestion. You asked "How do you handle large templates." and that's how I do it. Others may do it differently of course. |
Lawrence, your help is really appreciated! I hope it didn't come across the other way.
I just hoped for a solution that will allow me to manage my tracks in a more comfortable manner. For the moment, 1000 tracks is something that S1 can't handle satisfyingly. I hope for a fully featured track template functionality in th future. |
Lawrence wroteYou asked "How do you handle large templates." and that's how I do it. Others may do it differently of course. It may also depend on the opinion of "large". No offence... but my recent S1 orchestra / composing template contains ~ 300 tracks... and I don't think that's pretty large if compared to what many professional film composers use. If Cubase loads 1000 a empty MIDI track project within 10 seconds I'd assume they already optimized the saving / loading time many years ago... since also Cubase holds tracks as objects in memory and has to create and destroy them. So I think although we recently got some real improvements (new file format with some data not compressed anymore in 3.5, disable track feature added in 3.3) there's still room left for some optimization.
Lukas Ruschitzka
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Hi Stevie,
This is only a question as I can't for the life of me understand what is easy about a starting template of 1000 tracks, for orchestral or other startup needs. It's certainly a good idea to create "a template" of SOME foundation to help get started on, but a DAW not being a database. It just seems so anti productive to weed through one thousand tracks, not used yet. Hidden, or otherwise to start out with creating something. If the answer is, "well, I have my favorites". Understandable, but one thousand starting points as tracks in a DAW would seem to get in the way of searching, and developing. How do you find things? Color? Why not have those favorites be marked by your instrument library? VST instruments typically search their libraries almost instantly. It's what they do, extremely well. Why port such a vast number of things into a DAW tracks. Yes, eventually the track count might develop into high numbers, but why pack for a move, each time you write something? Concept: Instrument software, do such a great job accessing their libraries, of tens of thousands of sounds. They catalog their material based on many search criteria, and the process works well. 1000 tracks?!?! How would you locate for example some specific strings, or even a triangle easily within the confines of a DAW? Seems to me, not only is finding something like this quite burried, it also then needs to be placed into the song as it evolves. Drag & Drop? Wouldn't that best be called up instantly based on only a few dedicated instruments on several tracks, that call to their own library? Anyway, that process works for me so I was curious. I don't follow or care about anyones idea of how film composers work. For all I know, they may have some great search mechanism within the DAW. Though I haven't come across that. Not in PT, anyway. Or they work in some other fashion. It's not some formal process clearly shown anyhow. Unless proven otherwise. Building tracks in a DAW is largely static. So I agree to Lawrence's point. It is also a great way to see how tracks and structure evolve. From a largely clean pallete. Suggestion, if I may. Start with a template of 5 tracks for each section of the orchestra/ or film stages, broken down conceptually. (Strings/horns/ percussion/chorus/ or intro, etc). 5 tracks from each secrion might be best utilized for examole if you have 5 sources, or libraries. Like a NI Orchestra, East/West, Presonus' own orchestral package, etc. Since calling up any dedicated instrument with its own huge array of instruments, could not be easier (imo). Need an additional track almost instantaneously? Right click, and select "duplicate track and instrument" Is it faster to scroll through 1000 tracks in a DAW for something, you have to then call up anyway? I'm not getting that (in all due respect to your way, is your way, and no doubt varies). Anyway, just a suggestion.
Last edited by Lokeyfly on Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Some DAWs have a search field where you can search for f.i. "oboe" and it will filter out all tracks not named "oboe" something, kind of how we search/filter plugins in Studio One. I've asked Narech if he could implement this in his Studio One X scripts, he said he'd look into it to see if it was doable.
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Skaperverket wroteI've asked Narech if he could implement this in his Studio One X scripts, he said he'd look into it to see if it was doable. Hm, it would be better if we made an official FR but maybe see this someday in Studio One (w/o X )...
Lukas Ruschitzka
Studio One Specialist Studio One Tutorials || Studio One Scripts & Add-ons || Studio One Tutorial Database || Studio One Toolbox [ s1toolbox.com ] Core i7 3.24 GHz, Windows 10, 24 GB RAM, RME HDSP 9632, PreSonus FaderPort, PreSonus Monitorstation, PreSonus Eris 5 Clavia Nord Stage 3 - Moog Sub 37 - YAMAHA MoXF6 - M-Audio Axiom Pro 61 - Kawai ES-920 - Studio One 5 - Notion 6 - Orchestral Tools Junkie XL Horns, ProjectSAM Symphobia, Cinematic Studio Series, Strezov Sampling Afflatus, VSL Synchron Special Edition, KOMPLETE 9 Ultimate |
Lokeyfly wroteHi Stevie, Hey Lokeyfly, okay, I will try to elaborate a bit. I work as a Film and TV composer and as a filmcomposer you have very tight deadlines. You literally have to find ways to improve your workflow and make the best out of your time. One of these measures is a template that you fire up and start composing. I just don't have the time to configure each instrument, when I need it. This includes EQing, levels, send FX, inserts, etc... I set this up for each instrument in my template, so that I can start composing. Imagine a painter not having all colors for his picture at his fingertips. He needs to go out and purchase the missing ones. Concerning productivity... the opposite is the case, it speeds up my workflow. I know exactly what sounds I have in my template. I indeed use the search function in Cubase. So when I reach for the Symphobia String patch, I type: "SYM Str" and the track is shown immediately. I also have the possibility to show and hide folder tracks. So when I need to add a trumpet to my cue, I just show the trumpet folder track in the arrangement. When I'm done recording it, I click on "show only tracks with data". This goes on and on... When I need a piano, I show the piano folder track, etc.... 1000 tracks is really nothing compared to other colleagues and I'm not exaggerating. Check out Junky XL's template to get a glimpse: And there are TONS of other videos: I just want to point out that this workflow is nothing exotic. This is completely normal in the film world. |
jazzundso wroteSkaperverket wroteI've asked Narech if he could implement this in his Studio One X scripts, he said he'd look into it to see if it was doable. True. Would be great. But there are so many other things they also have to look into and update and maintain. Narech seems to be easier to approach, and personally I don't have time for elaborate thought-out FR descriptions (in a foreign language) that end up at the bottom of a long list of noise and broken dreams. (That last part is meant in a humourous way.) |
Yeah, as I was writing, I was thinking, a searchable group of fields would be good for such things.
Still, it's not my approach, but I'd vote for it. Frankly, it would help even where I have 50 or so tracks, as an enhancement. 1000 tracks, I still don't get, but hey, have fun with that. In a developed song/project, sure. Would be reasonable in a film score. Starting out though, not my cup of tea. Let's FR it, though. I'll check the vids later and comment. Can't right now.
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I tend to look at it from the actual performance point of view. The orchestra really only has 4 sections to it. And to that there may only be 80 to 100 people in a large orchestra. So even allowing one track per person you should be able to create convincing orchestral simulations with 100 tracks or less. Plus the fact that some tracks e.g. a single track can represent a whole section rather easily.
If you cannot create great sounding orchestral simulations with 80 -100 tracks then the problem lies with you. Convincing orchestral music using samples is not based on the number of tracks involved but many other factors. I suggest you read the current series of articles in Sound on Sound magazine on sampled based orchestras. It is very good. Part 1 started in the July issue. They do say that Logic and Cubase might also be the better DAW's for this too. They probably do handle large track sounds differently. Large track counts can get you into all sorts of trouble some of which are mentioned here such as load and save times. Others as Lokeyfly also correctly suggests, try finding something in a 1000 track session! You are better off creating a much smaller template e.g. a number of tracks for each section and then add them as necessary. Something that Studio One allows you to do very easily. That way you will often only end up with sessions that are the size of the project itself. Rather than have millions tracks that will not often all be used at once. It might be good to try and find out how big Hans Zimmer's starting template is. He uses Cubase I believe. If you look around as well it is also possible to pick up other people's templates too. When people complain about how poorly Studio One handles something that is unreasonable it makes me wonder. As long as the ideas are good and well implemented you can produce great sounding orchestral music and at the end of the day that is all that is important. The listener is not wondering how many tracks you used. Instead focus on producing amazing music using the least number of tracks. It always amazes me how big something can sound with such few players involved. That is where the magic happens. Sometimes my wife has string quartet rehearsals here at home and I am often amazed at how big the sound is. Almost fully orchestral in nature at times. Only 4 tracks used in that situation! With 1000 tracks you are going to be putting in far too much stuff as well and when you start editing you will find a lot of it will go. Or not be used. The largeness of an orchestra is not related always to the numbers involved but rather what is going on inside the music. That is where the real action lies. The more you focus on that, the less the 1000 track count becomes important.
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Jemusic wroteIf you cannot create great sounding orchestral simulations with 80 -100 tracks then the problem lies with you. Convincing orchestral music using samples is not based on the number of tracks involved but many other factors. Jemusic wroteI suggest you read the current series of articles in Sound on Sound magazine on sampled based orchestras. It is very good. Jemusic wroteIt might be good to try and find out how big Hans Zimmer's starting template is. Jemusic wroteThe largeness of an orchestra is not related always to the numbers involved but rather what is going on inside the music. Sorry. But: Have you ever made an virtual orchestra production inside the DAW? Did you work for years as professional composer for film and TV as Stevie told? Did you look into the videos he posted (especially JunkieXL's video - because you mentioned Hans Zimmer who often works with JunkieXL)? Have you ever heard about the term "orchestra template" and do you know the difference between having many different orchestra presets and using them all in one single song? Have you ever heard of the concept of combining different orchestra libraries? To me, your posting strongly suggests that nothing of that is the case (altough you mentioned something like that in a different thread). I'm really astonished that techniques and workflows that are totally common in this business for 10 years are seriously questioned here. When I'm not complete wrong, the topic's title is "How do you handle large orchestral templates?" and not "Who of you thinks it doesn't make any sense how filmscoring is done nowadays?"... Finally: Jemusic wroteKurzweil and Emu are hard to beat when it comes to orchestral sounds. No, they're not. And here's one more orchestra template for everyone that can't believe how you can need more than 100 tracks...
Last edited by jazzundso on Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Lukas Ruschitzka
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