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Not sure if this is real bug or something I overlooked in settings in new version of S1 but it took me some time to realize what was the problem as it gave me hard time in mixer full screen not showing "mute" selected...

When I mute track I n channel view, it doesn't show in mixer view that the channel is muted and can not unmute from mixer and vice-versa... Really annoying

Here is the video of it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CSnnvUaI4Y
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by niles on Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:22 am
It's hard to tell what's going on without seeing the actual routing of the track to the channel.

That being said. Keep in mind Instrument Tracks (MIDI) don't follow solo and mutes states of audio channels blindly. Which makes sense.

Simple example is a drum track data residing on one Instrument track connected to a drum synth with 3 channels (kick, snare, hihat). When you mute the hihat channel in the console, you don't want the Instrument track to mute its entire MIDI playback too, since then you won't hear the kick and snare anymore.

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by Lokeyfly on Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:25 am
Nice example Niles. Very true. Just to add to that, a potential snag is the opposite could occur. If a track was outputting to some other track, and it was muted, the channel from the output ed track would not show mute, as it is branched off and not affecting that track+channel arrangement.

So to.the OP, as Niles stated, check the path and switching. These are things the video wouldn't necessarily reveal.

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by Lokeyfly on Sun Mar 20, 2016 12:59 pm
sasarajak wrote: Not sure if this is real bug or something I overlooked in settings in new version of S1 but it took me some time to realize what was the problem as it gave me hard time in mixer full screen not showing "mute" selected...

When I mute track I n channel view, it doesn't show in mixer view that the channel is muted and can not unmute from mixer and vice-versa... Really annoying

Here is the video of it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CSnnvUaI4Y



**** VERIFIED PROBLEM. I HAVE IT AS WELL***

Well, after working out a song today, I have to verify with sasarajak that the exact same thing is happening with me. I suspect it's been there and I just didn't notice. I restarted S1, and the condition still exists on numerous songs. It's probably everywhere.

My earlier response still holds true, but in this case, I see that the instrument tracks Mute button does not sync with the mixers. The instrument and channels are in direct one to one correlation. In other words, no track is outputting to some other tracks input, etc.

Audio channel & track mutes all sync properly, but none of the instrument channel & tracks mutes button sync together.

Any others?

Easy to check. Drag in a instrument such as impact, or Mai Tai, and when the instrument track is created, the mixer track will also be created. Compare the two. then compare with an existing audio track.

I was just too busy doing stuff to notice. When I stemmed a track and compared the original to the stem (something I always do to compare if effects and all), there it was. Holy moley. :shock:

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by Jemusic on Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:14 pm
I see it as not a bug. You only want to mute the output of a VST not any of the input tracks feeding it. When multiple tracks are feeding a VST then you want to be able to mute them individually and not effect the output. It is sensible operation.

I see it as the glass half full not empty.

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by moraldecay31 on Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:42 pm
I can confirm it also works that way on my system as well with instrument tracks.
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by Lokeyfly on Mon Mar 21, 2016 3:53 am
jemusic wrote: I see it as not a bug. You only want to mute the output of a VST not any of the input tracks feeding it. When multiple tracks are feeding a VST then you want to be able to mute them individually and not effect the output. It is sensible operation
.

I don't think your seeing the full extent of the issue, Jemusic. Here's what's up.

The ability to mute a track should correlate with that same channel. I can point to too many snags why you won't hear the audio coming from a source like a track or channel, only to find out it is muted elsewhere? That is ridiculous, and not a part of any mix design I've come across. It was never like this and I can't think of a single reason it should erupt now in version 3.2.

Mute is mute, and that does include tracks "feeding" a VST or anything else. It also displays a visible path so that its clear a mute condition is in place on such a channel or channels, on that items output. The bottom line is that VST itself (irregardless of what is patched to it) if shown as muted, should show up on the console as muted. If it does not, that is a bug, my friend.

What would be the purpose of having either a fully open arrangement view of all tracks, or a full open view of mixer channels? To find that some hidden mute button is assigned elsewhere? And that you didnt know because you had to view the others condition in some closed window? That the only functionality to work across the two is by audio tracks only? This has nothing to do with inputs assigned to instruments. if the path of the mute button is on, then it is in a mute state. Even when using Rewire, a mute state provides a full clear signal that a mute condition is in place. Weather that instrument receives anything is not the issue here. It's output if muted, should show muted. This is the problem.

I think from reading your response, it was the same.as my first response and I would agree. But the issue here my friend is that the same track assigned to the same channel, if an instrument, does not sync mute buttons, either way. That's just fundamentally wrong. The same named straight through track! Can you verify for me buddy? Thanks. Note, audio tracks straight to the mixer will sync only.

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by niles on Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:42 am
It's not a bug, it's by design.

In the Studio One reference manual PreSonus wroteMute/Solo
Channels can be muted or soloed by clicking on their Mute and Solo buttons, respectively.
You can also press [M] for Mute or [S] for Solo on the keyboard to mute or solo selected
Channels. Muting silences the Channel’s audio from the Console so you won’t hear it.
Soloing silences all except the audio for the soloed Channel, so you only hear the soloed
Channel. Any number of Channels can be muted or soloed at one time.

When using the [M] or [S] keys to mute or solo an Instrument Track that has a virtual
instrument attached to it, mute or solo is applied to the note data Track in the Arrangement
view, rather than to the audio Track in the Mix view. [M] and [S] have no effect on Bus or FX
Channels.

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by sasarajak on Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:38 am
Well, than design itself is a bug... It took me long time when I was in full screen mixer to work out why one of my channels is not playing, only because it was muted on "track" but the mixer did not show it...

Sorry to say but it's sort of a "stupid" design...
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by niles on Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:10 am
sasarajak wroteSorry to say but it's sort of a "stupid" design...
So which channels should be muted when muting an instrument track that sends MIDI data to a VST's MIDI input channel with multiple output channels (multitimbral synth), where some of the output channels relate to the muted Instrument track and some of the output channels to a different instrument track?

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by Lokeyfly on Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:43 pm
niles wrote: So which channels should be muted when muting an instrument track that sends MIDI data to a VST's MIDI input channel with multiple output channels (multitimbral synth), where some of the output channels relate to the muted Instrument track and some of the output channels to a different instrument track?


The actual occurrence in question has nothing to do with an instrument track sending MIDI to a VST's MIDI input channel with multiple output channels (multitimbral synth).

Again, I raised your same point in my first response, but I would ask you to erase all preconceptions, and lets treat this in its simplest form. No routing, no other inputs, we are dumbing this down to one instrument track, to one channel. Now what occurs?

Well, the following buttons sync and are exactly a one to one occurrence (same track name to same Mixer name). .

The following Instrument to same mixer buttons sync:
Record, Monitor, Stereo/Mono, Solo, and the faders all synchronize.
However, the Mute button does not synchronize .

The following audio to same mixer buttons sync:
Record, Monitor, Stereo/Mono, Solo, and the faders all synchronize.
Additionally, the Mute button does synchronize.

Here's an interesting item. If another mixer channel is solo'd, we know the result which is the other channels all mute, as they should. What I find interesting is while those mutes are all on (due to the solo'd track), pressing any of the instrument mutes, now DO correspond to the same channel! So why now, do they actually work together? It actually took soloing another track/channel to get them to all of a sudden NOW work together?

Please, in the above example, there is no need to specify tracks assigned to other instruments or altered MIDI input assignments. It is already understood.

This is a one to one track to channel association.

In the final analysis, suddenly the track to channel DOES synchronize, if some other channel is in SOLO?

If an instrument track is called Presence - Piano, and the Mixer channel is called Presence - Piano, then by golly when I mute that instrument track, the same mixer channel should mute. Of course if the output of the instrument was routed to another instruments input, that would not happen.

The trick here is to think simple. Mute means Mute, on a one to one basis. Why does all of a sudden, when another channel is solo'd, does that now allow synced switching of the instruments track & "same" channel? Weird. IMO

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by niles on Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:36 pm
Fair enough. I found the actual issue and the funny thing is, one way it works like you guys suggest and the other way it works like the manual describes. :lol:

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by Lokeyfly on Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:23 am
Glad you see this Niles, and thanks for taking the time to prove it out. I don't deny it's in the manual, and that's all good. I'll check it out later just to see how it's described.

The functionality of mute on a channel to track basis should be in-line. I also want to revisit JPettits flow diagram to understand this better.

To my surprise, I checked version 2.6 and it also works the same way! I suspect my workflow causes me to not see it, as I usually solo, more than mute tracks, then turn mutes on and off from there. Not sure. From a mixer standpoint, I usually work right off of the mixer, and just see what I'll mute right there, rarely comparing the track, so I simply just missed it.

I stated this erupted in v. 3.2, but that is incorrect. It's been around even back at 2.6. My guess is this started at around 2.5, but in conclusion, a mute on a channel, should align with its direct channel, be it pre or post fade. Pre, or post manual. ;)

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by stevenicel on Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:18 pm
Holy Moly,

This exact behaviour has been driving me crazy and caused me a lot of head scratching time the past 6 months. Every time I realise something weird was happening I'd jump on Google and the Presonus forum then search for other's with these same symptoms, but to no avail until today, FINALLY!....

I'm using v3.5.1 and have no idea why Studio One would be programmed with this sort of behaviour ( I get the multi out thing), but when there's only a one to one track relationship between mixer/arranger for a VI? That's just a mistake waiting to happen, repeatedly.

Has this been changed or are others still dealing with this in late 2017?

If I have a track colour set to a redish-burgandy, it is almost impossible to see the other track view NOT corresponding when muting. In all honestly I have sat there for a half hour at a time wondering why I can't hear a tracks I've layered under an existing track, because they're muted in the "other view"! And vice-versa. And because this seems to only happen on instrument tracks I just kept assuming it was a periodic issue in random sessions.

This behaviour is frustrating and has caught me out so many times. I also wonder how many subtly nested "double layered" track sounds I've ended up muting out of a final mix when I didn't intend... You know, those types of sounds that we double or triple in an instrument to add more "weight", but it's not necessarily audible in the mix.

I work almost exclusively with a 1 to 1 arranger/console VI track workflow (except when I occasionally use impact). So having these not correspond is a bigger deal than I first thought.

Can anybody tell me if there is already an FR (feature request) posted about this being changed that I could add my vote to?
At least a checkbox needs to be added in the options so we can choose the way we need it to work without making blind mistakes.

All the best.

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by Lawrence on Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:22 am
Lokeyfly wroteAgain, I raised your same point in my first response, but I would ask you to erase all preconceptions, and lets treat this in its simplest form. No routing, no other inputs, we are dumbing this down to one instrument track, to one channel. Now what occurs?

Well, the following buttons sync and are exactly a one to one occurrence (same track name to same Mixer name). .

The following Instrument to same mixer buttons sync:
Record, Monitor, Stereo/Mono, Solo, and the faders all synchronize.
However, the Mute button does not synchronize .

The following audio to same mixer buttons sync:
Record, Monitor, Stereo/Mono, Solo, and the faders all synchronize.
Additionally, the Mute button does synchronize.


Niles is right. This comes up every 6 months or so and the explanation is always the same. It was modeled after Cubase, arguably one of the three most used sequencers on the planet, and it works exactly the same way as Cubase's "midi" tracks + instrument audio output channels from the rack. Those channels are not 1-to-1, they are quite literally separate objects.

Cubase's "Instrument" tracks on the other hand, a different track class there, are audio channels (which are always 1-to-1) which can load an instrument inside of the audio channel, "inline", like Reaper or some other products put an instrument inside of an audio channel instead of sending midi out to a rack.

If you choose to use Studio One for midi, or Cubase's midi tracks, you've chosen to use the rack design and that's how it works. Midi tracks are independent from the devices in the rack, like a real midi rack and real mixer are independent from each other.

It's subjectively debatable if that was the best path but that ship has sailed already. Maybe the FR is to do what Cubase did, add a second midi track class that puts instruments inline inside of an audio track container

Not exactly rocket science. If the midi clips on a track or a midi track is muted, nothing will play and the mixer channels will not reflect those mutes, like hardware. Once you commit to audio that all goes away.

The other issues with solo have nothing much to do with that design, those subjective issues have more to do with Studio One not having a solo bus, a different subject that causes multiple issues with solo.

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How daws choose to model themselves initially always results in some users not liking some design decisions. For example, Reaper was initially modeled after Vegas which doesn't use range selection and some Reaper users don't like that. That's the way daw design goes. Fundamental decisions are made early on foundation wise, and that's what a thing is.

I suppose the moral is: "You can't have everything everywhere."

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by ArKay99 on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:21 am
Not trying to pile on here, but I'm wondering if this is related as it seems possibly that others are having mute button issues...

https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?f=151&t=22902&p=127607#p127607

Been trying to get this noticed enough to have it discussed since I first bought S1 (2.6.5) and started mixing with it.

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by stevenicel on Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:17 pm
HI Lawrence, I wanted to take a moment to address some of the thoughts here. Forgive me if I'm taking this out of context with your reply to Lokeyfly. Not my intent. I may be missing some "historical context" in the discussion. But I have read everything as I see it, and tried best to understand what's being said.

Lawrence wroteThis comes up every 6 months or so and the explanation is always the same.
So if this same topic comes up so often, shouldn't that tell the developers something? It should at least give a strong hint that options for preferred visual workflow need to be included.

Lawrence wrote "Instrument" tracks on the other hand, a different track class there, are audio channels (which are always 1-to-1)

This is where it all goes belly up for me also, and is exactly the issue I'm referring. When I mute the channel in console, the audio mutes, but I don't see that reflected in the "1-to-1" arranger window. This is a design/usability issue. And from my perspective, It's not my job to be concerned how many DAW's use different "1-to-1" logic workflows. I don't use those DAW's, and it's just simply not visually logical or apparent behaviour how Studio One currently behaves.
Instrument tracks with a "1-to-1 object ratio" should indeed correspond when mute/solo'd in either console or arranger view. But they don't. However, the volume/rec arm controls do with clear visual association.

There should at least be an option to have mute behave the way the user needs it to depending on outputs. AND at minimum, something like a contrasting border around the button that indicates an alternate view track state is present. Basically good options for different peoples workflow possibilities.

Am I missing something here?
Last edited by stevenicel on Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by jpettit on Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:33 pm
I was going to say this comes up every 12 months but Lawrence already said 6 months.

This logic is as they designed it and as far as they are concerned there is no issue.
You are welcome to create an FR.

Tne confusion stems from a 1 to many relationships between a tracks and channels.
A fundamental difference between S1 and most other DAWS.

it is also at the root of ALL confusion and extra code to try to keep tracks and channel in sync in a growing expansion of capabilities such as a folder, instrument folders, and bus folders and countless years of attempting ot synchronize a non 1 - 1 relationship especially with buses.

If you really want to make this simple create an FR for "Only 1-1 track to channel" including buses so that it looks like the rest of the non-Cubase world.

You might be surprised how far that idea goes in future major releases,

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by stevenicel on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:06 pm
jpettit wrote If you really want to make this simple create an FR for "Only 1-1 track to channel" including buses so that it looks like the rest of the non-Cubase world.
You might be surprised how far that idea goes in future major releases,

Yes. I was planning to do this and thought I had already asked if there was an existing FR kicking around for it. Then I re-checked my post and realised I must have deleted it in all the editing. Are we sure there's not one going already?

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by jpettit on Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:16 pm
It has been informally discussed here in the past before "Answers voting", but I don't see an FR.
It is a fundamental cornerstone of the design which would change many things but they may be done with trying ot make it work per the original design, but then again who knows. ;)

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