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Hello everybody.
I've faced one problem that I cannot solve.
I own a bunch of external gear:
Roland TR-8
Novation Ultranova
Arturia Minibrute

Every instrument is connected via USB and have MIDI channel. Audio signals are brought to DAW using MOTU Ultralite MK3 (256 samples, 12ms).

Everything works fine except delay problems. For example TR-8 is configured as external instrument and it gets midi sync and start/stop signals from Studio One. It works. But recorded audio do not fit to DAW's tempo grid.
I know that I can use external processing with compensation via pipeline, I can adjust delay for midi notes on the instrument channel. But what to do with external drum machine with it's own sequencer if I need only sync signal from DAW and it should be tuned to match tempo grid? How?
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by Jemusic on Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:11 pm
I have up to 8 hardware midi devices attached to my system in Studio One. Two of those are computers acting in the role of synthesisers. They have super fast latency too and do what they are told. The other 6 are hardware synths for me. I prefer to not use the USB method of communicating with those synths that do have USB ports fitted but midi instead.

I have got USB on my Kurzweil PC3K but I don't use it. I find the midi method works a little better and nicer all round. The editor works exactly the same way. Everything works the same over midi compared to the USB port. My hardware is all very well behaved over the midi ports.

I have a midi interface and this is connected to my serial port. Sharing that with nothing else. It has 8 midi output ports. I am getting very fast and tight midi timing on all 8 ports. I would drive the hardware that way. Each port can address 16 midi channels too expanding it if required. Because in Studio One you can send the midi clock down any one of those separate midi ports and just feed any devices such as the R8 to pick it up and lock onto it if you are using it pattern mode. (I would not. I would just use the R8 as a sound generator and do all the drum programming in Studio One. Makes more sense.) If you do need to lock sequencer devices to your main system you can via midi. And only on those ports that need it. Much better. It is just a matter of putting those devices into slave mode and ensure they start up correctly and stay in sync. If you are only talking to one device per port all this is very possible. It all works because that was the way it was intended to be. USB has just adopted midi as well. I find USB works very well as a controller addressing the computer. That works very well for me.

All your midi data ends up being perfectly referenced against the click. You have so much control over how individual midi tracks playback. I fine tune those tracks too either advancing or retarding the timing against the click to fine tune the groove etc..

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by Tacman7 on Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:48 pm
I have a usb midi interface (remember midex?) works good.

My external synths (sound modules) use the legacy midi from the midex.

I don't have really fast complex music which is where midi can get tripped up.

I haven't felt the need to use any delay compensation, sync seems pretty right on to me.

Nod is good as a wink to me.

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by Innerpillars on Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:34 am
Guys, please... to much information about nothing...

My question is simple:

Imagine I have only USB(with midi channel) on drum machine to receive clock and start/stop from S1. How to record coming back audio fitted to DAW's tempo grid without delays?
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by Innerpillars on Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:52 am
Ableton Live have that option
Image

I do not want to change DAW only because of this feature. Still looking for solution.
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by Tacman7 on Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:12 pm
This doesn't sound like a midi problem but an audio latency problem.

Can you move the clip into place after you record it?

12ms is more than I can work with.

Can't you cut that in half?

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by Lawrence on Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:58 pm
Innerpillars wroteImagine I have only USB(with midi channel) on drum machine to receive clock and start/stop from S1. How to record coming back audio fitted to DAW's tempo grid without delays?


Options | Advanced | Audio | Record Offset

If your system is fine otherwise, change that value when you record the drum machine, if it's latent.
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by Innerpillars on Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:05 am
This doesn't sound like a midi problem but an audio latency problem.

That's for sure. Midi clock delay should compensate it.

Can you move the clip into place after you record it?

No. I'm using TR-8 with Virus TI vst(which is supa accurate with automatic latency compensation in plugin). Virus TI bass line fits to DAW's tempo grid perfectly while TR-8 kick sounds with delay up to 40-50ms(according to recorded samples). I cannot start recordings before I tune my kick to bass perfectly on hardware. That's my approach... nothing special

12ms is more than I can work with.


That's true, but for my surprise TR-8 delays much more than 12ms(which is only AD delay). I really cannot explain that as a result of some big audio latency problem because live keyboard playing on software VST goes perfectly. I really cannot understand why delay has grown up to 50ms.
I've launched Ableton Live with the same setting on MOTU. With 256 samples on MOTU(input delay 7ms) I've got perfect tempo match when MIDI Clock delay on TR-8 is 53ms! The same for minibrute arpeggio...
I believe that this extra delay on recordings could be explained by internal plugin delay autocorrection mechanism in S1 which give such effect when I use MIDI->USB->gear->Audio.

What's about Ableton? I've setted up all my gear in sync!
Ultranova,Minibrute,TR-8 is compensated via MIDI clock delay and
Virus TI works perfectly with its VST plugin
Everything works as I wanted. As for me S1 must have MIDI clock delay compensation as Ableton has. I've posted a feature request.

Maybe some external MIDI HUB or SYNC BOX will do my life simpler and add other option for gear configuration, but now I can get what I want in Ableton and do not get in S1.
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by RyanRoullard on Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:25 am
Jemusic wrote.

If you do need to lock sequencer devices to your main system you can via midi. And only on those ports that need it. Much better.


I'm curious—what issues have you experienced if you run multiple devices, on multiple channels, but on the same port via a splitter? When I have a song in Studio One running at 120 BPM, my TR-8 freaks out and runs at 300 BPM, and I've been scratching my head for a fix. MIDI is leaving Studio One via USB to a MIDISPORT 8x8, then to the TR-8.

Would love your thoughts, thanks.

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by Jemusic on Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:54 pm
Hey Innerpillars You can never have too much information! That was a bit rude in fact. We are only trying to help!

bellsauce because I have a midi interface that has 8 output ports I never run more than one device on each port. It is a luxury but it is by far the best way to do it. That way you can send only to one device including midi clock etc..

I wonder what is going on with your TR8 as well. Are you sending Midi clock or midi time code down that port to your TR8. (this is done in the external devices area. Select the device in question and click on edit.) I would be trying midi clock first. Make sure your TR8 is in slave mode of course.

Personally I would not be doing any sequencing in the TR8 itself. Just use it as a sound generator and do all the sequencing inside Studio One instead.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by shanabit on Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:44 pm
Turn down your AUDIO Buffer as low as you can. Your midi timing is tied to this setting.

Also, make sure Midi Clock is ONLY being sent to ONE of your external devices, otherwise youll have doubled tempos and crazy midi buffer overloads going on

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by Jemusic on Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:21 pm
shanabit wroteTurn down your AUDIO Buffer as low as you can. Your midi timing is tied to this setting.

Also, make sure Midi Clock is ONLY being sent to ONE of your external devices, otherwise youll have doubled tempos and crazy midi buffer overloads going on
\

Ok this is seriously wrong. Before I go on I must mention that I am running an Emagic Unitor 8 interface (8 IN x 8 OUT ports) on the SERIAL port. Yes serial port. I know it is old port but it works. So I am talking about external midi hardware now.

Ok no matter what I set the audio latency settings to I get rock solid perfect midi timing against the click. It can 5 mS or 100ms. Makes not a scrap of difference. (to me anyway)

One of the reasons I got into Studio One. Sonar is severely effected by audio settings on the midi tracks. NOT Studio One though. I can have the latency settings high and even high latency plugins on the audio tracks and midi is still totally un effected.

Now if is this is not so on the USB port than obviously this has something to do with USB VS Serial ports. Sound on Sound did an interesting article many years ago about the best ports Midi Interfaces should be attached to. Serial and PCI was very high up on the scale. USB was not so good.

I have quite a lot of external gear so this is a godsend for me. Just out of interest even though my midi interface is on the Serail port, (and external instruments too) Sonar did not handle it well. Timing was all over the shop. Sonarites rant on about Sonar's midi capabilities but in actual fact it is amongst the worst for sheer timing and feel. Sort of the most important thing really,

This is all relevant to external midi as well NOT VST's. They are using the audio channels so yes latency becomes involved. The main reason why external midi hardware absolutely eats VST instruments.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by shanabit on Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:36 pm
Ok this is seriously wrong. Before I go on I must mention that I am running an Emagic Unitor 8 interface (8 IN x 8 OUT ports) on the SERIAL port. Yes serial port. I know it is old port but it works. So I am talking about external midi hardware now.



Seriously, prove me wrong and Ill recant

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by Jemusic on Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:38 pm
Read ALL of my post and you will see what I am saying.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by Fosforic on Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:16 pm
This is a very interesting thread. I'm running several sound modules and synths connected to a midiman 4 in/out midi interface connected to usb. And I can definitely say that my audio buffer size makes all the difference in timing my modules and synths. I'm very very interested in how "jemusic" has this set up because I don't buy the whole serial port story. If it was due to a midi serial connection the latency would always be the same no matter the buffer size and right here it's not. So it must be possible with midi over usb and the right settings. Maybe "jemusic" can post a screenshot of his midi instrument settings or explain a little more specific? Would be very nice, this I a problem I really really want to get solved.

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by Jemusic on Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:53 pm
Not sure what you mean by midi settings. What settings. I have not done anything other than connect my interface to the serial port. It is the only connection I have so I am forced to use it. I am lucky that I have got a computer that still has one!

It is true though, I have got perfect relentless midi timing no matter what latency settings I use. As far as I am concerned that is the way it should be and the only way. Anything else is just not good enough.

I do only have one synth per output midi port though not daisy chaining multiple synths on one port either. That is not good as well.

Being a drummer as well as a keyboard player I am very sensitive to timing issues. The way I have got my setup running is rock solid and perfect for me.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by MisterE on Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:11 pm
Roland support is not exactly slamming it out of the park these days. Let's just say I'm highly suspicious of the USB driver they released for my Jupiter 50. What's for sure is that driver has not been updated once since the synth was released. The only problems I ever have with my PC or S1 occur when the Roland USB driver comes into play. Sometimes an operation like bouncing down an External Instrument track to audio is carried out; other times S1 freezes necessitating a reboot and every once in a while I get a blue screen of death.

Without interacting with the Roland USB driver, I can record for months on end and never see any such touchy behavior.

One other bit of advice when using Roland USB drivers is to just have one song open at a time ... confusion seems to reign when more than one open songs wants access to use that driver.

Lastly, switching between local On and Off tends to throw things off in between my Roland keyboard and S1.

All that said, I have never encountered any latency ... which doesn't make me less suspicious about Roland USB drivers.
Last edited by MisterE on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Jemusic on Fri Sep 19, 2014 7:40 pm
I still think you will get much better behaviour via midi only and not use USB. Like I said my Kurzweil has got USB too and it all seemd OK at first but then I experienced some weird behaviour that is just not there over midi. There is nothing wrong with using MIDI. That is what it was intended to be used for in the first place. USB is no superior in any way. Just more trouble from what I can see because of the reasons you mentioned. USB requires the use of drivers but midi does not.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro
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by MisterE on Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:58 am
Jemusic wroteI still think you will get much better behaviour via midi only and not use USB. Like I said my Kurzweil has got USB too and it all seemd OK at first but then I experienced some weird behaviour that is just not there over midi. There is nothing wrong with using MIDI. That is what it was intended to be used for in the first place. USB is no superior in any way. Just more trouble from what I can see because of the reasons you mentioned. USB requires the use of drivers but midi does not.


We've discussed this before and while I can't dispute what you say, you are committed to using lots of MIDI -- and therefore willing to go "back in time" to work out a bulletproof solution for using MIDI in S1. The problem is some of use MIDI only some of the time; therefore obtaining oldie-but-goodie MIDI interfaces like the Unitor you're still rocking and serial interfaces in 2014 may not be worth the time, expense, and trouble.

I respect your choices. In my case, when using S1, I will probably move away from using external synth sounds and use more virtual instruments ... and if I want to get deep into MIDI, I will probably use Cubase ... unless V3 sees a paradigm shift in the provisions S1 offers to get down the road using more modern MIDI methods.

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by Jemusic on Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:04 pm
I don't see Midi as going back in time but rather using a system today which was invented quite a while ago and for the purpose of addressing multiple hardware instruments and it still seems to work rather well today for me.

I am just wondering maybe the USB buss is quite busy doing other things like handling multiple audio streams and perhaps its midi performance suffers. I know that when I upgrade again I won't be able to use my current midi interface and I will be trying to figure some sort of approach using modern components that will hopefully at best come close to the timing and feel I seem to be getting now. You could try a single USB to MIDI IN/OUT converter and see how that works out. It might be very stable. That may work better than going direct to USB etc through the Roland drivers. The USB to MIDI drivers may be much better written. I am not sure if you have tried that yet.

I am also in agreement with you too about using VST's and you are right it is only a matter of time before we are completely in that world. For now I like having all the heavy pcm based workstation stuff being handled outside the computer in such devices as Kurzweil PC3 and..K2000R and EMU E5000 in my system. I also use two digital instruments outside, a Roland JD800 and Kawai K5000W. I am sure there are VST's that can come close to what they can do. Although they do sound bloody amazing! Your Jupiter must sound great too. I can understand why you like using it.

Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz-8 Gb RAM-Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME HDSP9632 - Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 2/8 - Atom Pad/Atom SQ - HP Laptop Win 10 - Studio 24c interface -iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - High Sierra 10.13.6 - Focusrite Clarett 2 Pre & Scarlett 18i20. Studio One V5.5 (Mac and V6.5 Win 10 laptop), Notion 6.8, Ableton Live 11 Suite, LaunchPad Pro

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